Why does Cassiopeia has built in mana sustain after all?

DropFill·May 31, 2015·3 votes·536 views

Never made any sense to me. The only champion who got that was Gragas and we know what happened to him

14 Comments

ErockandrollMay 31, 20155 votes

Kassadin Karthus TwistedFate Sivir Bard

all of these champions have a Mana Sustain in some form passive or active. and I'm probably forgetting a few.

SlytherinUmbreonMay 31, 20151 votes

Xerath And Lissandra doesn't have sustain, but her passive is close enough

EndlessSorcererMay 31, 20153 votes

Malzahar Annie Evelynn Jayce Lissandra Nunu Swain Veigar Xerath Cassiopeia Chogath

I think that's all of them, between the two of us.

DropFillMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think that's all of them, between the two of us.

Malzahar needs to kill at least 6 minions to sustain the mana he used. Veigar is passive mana regen. Swain mana is VERY mana hungry. Nunu? Xerath passive is twelve seconds. Cho'Gath is problematic as a midlaner nowadays. Annie gets a refund, it is not mana sustain. Jayce?

Also, I am talking about she being able to sustain mana as much as she wants, using her E to kill minions.

EndlessSorcererMay 31, 20151 votes

Why does Cassiopeia has built in mana sustain after all? The only champion who got that was Gragas and we know what happened to him

You said that the only champion with in-built mana sustain before Cassiopeia was Gragas, which is false.

Jayce gets mana back from his W passive when autoattacking in melee form, which is a form of mana sustain.
Nunu gets to cast a free spell after 5 autoattacks due to his passive, which lets him sustain his mana.
Annie gets the mana cost of her Q refunded if it kills a target. This is still a form of mana sustain since she can use it to last-hit and charge her passive easily.
Xerath gets mana back on autoattack, which is mana sustain.
Veiger has passive mana regen, which is mana sustain.
Malzahar gets mana back when a target afflicted with Malefic Vision dies, which is mana sustain.
Swain isn't that mana-hungry outside of his ultimate, so his passive is enough for short trading and harassment during laning phase. Now that is returns a percent of his mana when he gets a kill or assist, it's good sustain in teamfights as well.
Regardless of Cho'gath's current state in the meta game, he still has mana sustain (which is the topic of this conversation).

DropFillMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

all of these champions have a Mana Sustain in some form passive or active. and I'm probably forgetting a few.

TF mana sustain is pretty bad. Karthus needs it because he actually uses a lot of mana. Kassadin damage is horrible compared to cassio

EndlessSorcererMay 31, 20151 votes

They still have mana sustain, which you claimed only Cassiopeia and pre-rework Gragas had.

Leu07May 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

TF mana sustain is pretty bad. Karthus needs it because he actually uses a lot of mana. Kassadin damage is horrible compared to cassio

Cassiopeia needs the sustain because she uses A LOT of mana! Rank 5 E is 90 mana, that's technically spamming an ult every 0.5 seconds. If you have troubles dealing with Cassiopeia, just freaking ask for advice, because there is counterplay you can make to her, I'm tired of this freaking whinning people, she already has been nerfed like 4 times this season.

The Queen ViperMay 31, 20152 votes

Because she needs it to deal sustained dmg.

DropFillMay 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because she needs it to deal sustained dmg.

Tear is enough I think.

LucentileMay 31, 20151 votes

Chogath

xJLx MCHammerMay 31, 20151 votes

Cass has a play style like an adc so it's only fair to get mana refund and sustain when that kills something

DropFillMay 31, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=xJLx MCHammer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GskEzAbP,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-05-31T18:02:21.081+0000)

Cass has a play style like an adc so it's only fair to get mana refund and sustain when that kills something

what?

67chromeMay 31, 20151 votes

The only champion who got [mana sustain] was Gragas and we know what happened to him

There are like 30 champions that have built-in mana sustain. It's like an AA steroid.

Also - there are ~20 champions in the game that don't even use mana, along with the alternate forms of Nidalee and Elise.

Not sure I'd take issue with Cassi's mana sustain being there. If you could write a solid explination of why mana sustain in Cassi's kit breaks certain paradigms that damage game health by falling into an anti-pattern and removing counter-play you might have something, but with champions like Katarina Riven Garen existing, good luck with that.

On that note - the general pattern I've found for manaless champions is that they're much more in the sustained-damage direction than burst-cast. Being able to front-load 10 seconds of damage into 1 second is the main thing that costs mana, not overall damage potential. At least compared to other members of the same class. Riven can deal a ton of damage - but it's in a pretty extensive, drawn-out combo involving something like REWQQQR, preferably with a few AAs thrown in to make use of her passive. Compare that to Fiora's QQR combo that does cost mana, and limiting the time-frame you need to cast things and reaction time for your opponents costs considerably more mana.

If you look at Cassi - she's more in the sustained damage department compared to your typical QWER wombo-combo mage, so having somewhat cheaper skills makes more sense in the existing mana cost pattern.