As a bruiser main, i find conquerer to be overkill

HateDaddy··40 votes·12,691 views

Conceptually, I understand why Riot feels its needed. It serves as a point of access to allow bruisers the ability to kill tanks. However, almost every bruiser has either an innate way to shred through or has an item tailor made for them to help them accomplish this: The Black Cleaver

We can also take a look at bruiser kits and see how many of them have innate tank killing abilities.

Darius: 5 stacks plus true damage nuke. Also builds black cleaver. Also can heal off tanks with his Q. Great at shredding tanks.

Garen: BC passive on his spin, still has good synergy with BC. Ult can do %hp true damage and can gain %true damage on enemies with spells. Also durable as fuck. Great at bullying tanks and killing them in lane.

Illaoi: great synergy with black cleaver and although she has no innate tank shredding, she can heal off them for days. And because she can basically fully stack BC in one swoop, doesn’t give a fuck about armor.

Irelia: I’m still not 100% certain about her kit, I know it’s functions but I know she kills through shields, which can help with quite a few tanks. Given her nature, I’m not sure she should have the ability to kill tanks quickly but conquerer exists, so better nerf irelia, right?

JarvanIV: %shred, BC stacker. Doesn’t typically care about tanks anyway but can kill them if need be.

Jax: probably the worst tank killer of the bunch. Despite high base damages and mixed damage, once tanks approach 4-5 items, he’s not really good for it anymore. However, if he builds correctly, tanks can never duel him either. And Jax tends to function as an early-mid game diver, a late game off-tank in team fights. Conquerer exists though, so now he can.

Kayn: goes pretty bruiserish sometimes and tends to build BC. Not a great tank shredder but not really his thing anyway. I only mention him because bruiser builds have been popular on him in the past.

Mordekaiser: idk I guess he’s a bruiser. He kills anything he’s fortunate enough to touch but yeah, not sure where he falls in at in terms of classifications.

Nasus: %armor shred, becomes pretty durable. Tanks tend to be free lanes for him.

Olaf: great BC stacker, low CD true damage nuke. Absolutely demolished most tanks in lane.

Renekton: E shreds armor, builds BC. Not a great tank killer but conquerer would be stupid on him if he was good. Don’t ask me to feel pity for Renekton, he single handily held bruisers down for years just for existing (hur dur renekton bar).

Shyvana: what is this thing?

RekSai: true damage, BC builder. Doesn’t typically target tanks but makes a greart off tank anyway. I’m sure conquerer is stupid on her.

Trundle: lmao fuck this champion

Urgot: idk is he a bruiser. Does he even use conquerer? It’s probably stupid on him if he does.

Udyr: dumb for other reasons but shitty design regardless

MonkeyKing: shreds armor, insta stacks BC with ult. Scientifically proven to be most busted champion of all time by Dr. Sicks.

Anyway, you get the drift. Many of these chanpions already innately deal with tanks well. There are many light fighters like Fiora, GP and Yasuo that I didn’t include that already murder tanks and conquerer is absolutely nuts on them. This doesn’t even include bruiser off tanks like Mundo, Voli and Warwick who do a fuck ton of damage and have just as much durability as tanks (and heal forever).

In short, I love that you want to make bruisers good. And in fairness, many of the champions I mentioned don’t typically take conquerer but most do. And this makes their damage absolutely high. A bruisers job is typically not to mow down tanks, not in team fight situations. If you want tanks to have viability, then reduce their damage but give them wave clear. Make them be great scalers, not lane bullies with high damage (the previous balance that tanks had prior to this season). And the flip side of this isn’t good either, which is what we have now with conquerer. Honestly, keystones in general were a mistake - the old mastery and rune systems were fine. Generic and boring but balanced. If it ain’t broken, don’t fix it. Good luck ever finding that medium again.

62 Comments

Ahpe31 votes

If Rito would just stop beating themselves off to True Damage we'd be fine.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Yeah they seem to have a serious hard on for true damage.

AirKingNeo2 votes

so much true damage just look at how no one builds IE

Ralanr6 votes

For someone who claims people should give evidence, maybe you should link some evidence to your claims.

Because saying “look how no one builds IE” and providing nothing to back that up makes you look like a hypocritical jackass looking to start fights.

On the subject of information. We as a community really need to find a single site to base our info on.

AirKingNeo1 votes
DeusVult5 votes

Thats because no one plays ADC, especially crit ADC

Games end at 25 min

Crit carries need 30+ minutes to get the three items for IE crits to work now. And before that, they are garbage. So no one plays them because the risk =/= the reward

AirKingNeo1 votes

yeah, so how is there "so much true damage" if no one is building IE?

Is it Conqueror? No, the best top laners don't even use Conqueror except Darius.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

because of kits having true damage

AirKingNeo1 votes

which kits exactly have recently gotten true damage or new champions having true damage?

Yi's and Darius' true damage isn't anything new.

AmenPerson1 votes

I made this as a reply on another post a while ago, but I'll share it hear as well, just because it'll help clear some things up.

In one of the recent Gameplay thoughts from this year, Gameplay Thoughts May 16, Meddler did say that they probably were gonna leave True Damage to champion kits for now.

Frequency of True Damage

•We've been using True Damage more than launch LoL/early seasons did. That's due to a belief on our part that it's a valuable tool for helping balance the game that was underutilized. •Shouldn't expect a constant rush of new True Damage effects though. Post Conqueror and IE we don't have anything in the pipe, at least so far, that would offer True Damage to a wide audience. Likely it crops up on some individual kits over the next year of course. At present only one of the new champs/VGUs currently in development has True Damage on their kit, possible that number changes though certainly.

Sahn Uzal12 votes

Darius goes Trinity Force over Black Cleaver these days. But then again, having access to Conquerer is the reason he does that.

If you ask me, Renekton has far more inherent synergy with PTA than he does with Conquerer anyway. No reason to feel pity for him.

I've played with Malicious Metal enough to know Mordekaiser doesn't take Conquerer.

Urgot takes Comet or PTA.

Those are the champs I'm comfortable commenting on.

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GqtpMwgd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-15T18:03:36.908+0000)

Darius goes Trinity Force over Black Cleaver these days. But then again, having access to Conquerer is the reason he does that.

If you ask me, Renekton has far more inherent synergy with PTA than he does with Conquerer anyway. No reason to feel pity for him.

I've played with Malicious Metal enough to know Mordekaiser doesn't take Conquerer.

Urgot takes Comet or PTA.

Those are the champs I'm comfortable commenting on.

I’m aware - I stated many of these champions don’t. I’m mainly illustrating the point that msny champions have innate tools to deal with tanks, regardless of whether they take conquerer.

ValiantKiller1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tidal Tyrant,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GqtpMwgd,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-07-15T18:03:36.908+0000)

Darius goes Trinity Force over Black Cleaver these days. But then again, having access to Conquerer is the reason he does that.

If you ask me, Renekton has far more inherent synergy with PTA than he does with Conquerer anyway. No reason to feel pity for him.

I've played with Malicious Metal enough to know Mordekaiser doesn't take Conquerer.

Urgot takes Comet or PTA.

Those are the champs I'm comfortable commenting on.

I'm urgot who take aery all day xD

flibitydoo3 votes

My history might be wrong, but I think Darius has been going trinity over cleaver because conqueror got added.

Ralanr2 votes

I know someone who did do that yeah.

Sahn Uzal1 votes

That's... exactly what I said, sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

Linna Excel9 votes

{quoted}

Shyvana: what is this thing?

She hasn't been a top in ages. She's a bloodrazor jungler that needs a french maid skin.

noodles0732 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GqtpMwgd,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-07-15T21:20:29.923+0000)

She hasn't been a top in ages. She's a bloodrazor jungler that **needs a french maid skin. **

Nope. No. No. Nuh uh. No. Just no. Absolutely not. No. Nope. No.

Luxana Crowngard3 votes

[slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

RogueWill1 votes

And how are you going to mod the two huge bracelets she has on the form of a dragon skull?

Linna Excel1 votes

She could still have those as "gifts" from her master or mistress. Just make them sliver or gold to look nice.

Maybe they could be poro shaped dusters.

RogueWill1 votes

I still think it would look weird. I try looking for examples and the closest I came to it was Yuri Alpha from overlord and as you can see they stick out like a sore thumb

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/overlord/images/0/05/Yuri_Alpha.png/revision/latest?cb=20171204002034&path-prefix=es

Leetri2 votes

Ok this I just have to draw. I have 0 idea how it would work, but I like a good challenge.

remakoro7 votes

Jax

Cant rly agree on this one. Reliable DPS, hybrid dmg. Since he is old he might not be as busted as other contenders but most tanks gonna have no chance to do anything about him anyway.

Kayn

Red Kayn is one of the most broken things league has. If you are tank you can go afk the moment he transforms into Rhaast. You gonna be not only useless but fucking harmful for your team.

Ralanr5 votes

Thornmail screws Rhaast.

meowwow72 votes

not really he's an ad caster so he isn't going to proc the gw much if not at all

RecessHero1 votes

If you don't weave autos into your attacks with Kayn, then you are missing SO much damage. I actually think it's trolling if you don't auto with him.

LatetotheRace1 votes

Would you care to elaborate how building thornmail works against an AD caster?

Ralanr1 votes

He autos every now and then. In my experience Rhaast gets a lot weaker when I buy it.

LatetotheRace1 votes

You'd probably find a lot more success with item 3143 simply because you slow him and run away. Provided he doesn't have 40% cdr and just Q's every couple of seconds.

BestPudgeNA5 votes

{quoted}

Kayn: goes pretty bruiserish sometimes and tends to build BC. Not a great tank shredder but not really his thing anyway. I only mention him because bruiser builds have been popular on him in the past.

LMFAO WTF did i just read

RecessHero4 votes

I read that too and thought "wow, this guy has literally never played Rhaast or read his abilities."

Z3Sleeper5 votes

TBH this is a really dumb list. Many of the examples are soooo stretched.

Here, I'll show you why every champion in the game is good vs tanks using the same vague descriptions as you.

Elise pErCEnT hEAlTh DAmAgE on tWO spells! DPS damage through W plus spiderlings to sHrED through tanks.

AurelionSol Literally never stops kiting them with item 3116 for iNfINitE suSTaINeD dPs to aBsOLuTeLY ShREd through tanks. It gets even worse if he decides to go pure tank killer and get item 3135 + item 3151 !!!

Azir ^

Cassiopeia ^

Fizz "lMaO fUCk tHiS cHAmPioN"

Ornn pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!!

Kayle Her passive aBsoLUtElY deMolISheS tank's stats. No counterplay!!!11!1

Evelynn pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!! She can even build item 3135 !!!

Kassadin "Doesn’t typically care about tanks anyway but can kill them if need be." He can even build item 3135 !!!

Brand pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!! (this one is actually not a meme)

Gnar pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!!

Velkoz tRuE dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!!

DrMundo pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!!

Chogath pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe to ShREd through tanks!!!

(insert every marksmen here) can build item 3031 or item 3153 + item 3124 to ShREd through tanks with either tRuE or pErCenT heAlTH dAMaGe!!!

And last but not least, one of the best tank killers in the game: Ahri SHE DEALS TRUE DAMAGE!!!!1111!1!!

So now that we've meme-ily established that "everyone is good vs tanks" let's talk about why melee bruisers should be better at it than ranged champions or tanks.

**Ahem**

MELEE

The only issue is hyper-mobile peeps have access to it too.

Thefrostyviking4 votes

Shyvana Is a jungle creature that likes eating all the other jungle creatures, typically only becomes visible and noticeable when able to do so in a very swift and clean way.

Otherwise it or she as some would say, remains low key and doesnt appear much at all.

redniwediS3 votes

I wish Garen could make effective use of Conqueror. It seems like it would be a natural fit, with true damage coming from that spin of his, but the downtime between spins makes it a worse choice than his most commonly used keystone, Grasp.

A good combat keystone for Garen deals with that downtime, either letting him avoid combat for the duration or assisting his auto attacks, and Conqueror doesn't do enough for those autos. Thankfully Garen doesn't need Conqueror, but it would have been nice if it worked well on him.

Sire Hippington2 votes

you forgot some stuff: the free %pen on darius E %hp damage on Illaoi W %current health damage on J4passive Kayne as **Rhaast **has a shit ton of %hp damage, massive sustain(tanks just can't kill him) and high BC synergie %damage on morde ult, and also high sustain to ignore the tank damage Nasus %hp burn on ult Shy has %hp on-hit and mixed damage that atleast makes it hard for tanks early-mid Urgot doesn't use conqueror as he's ranged, but he has alot%hp damage, the execute ult that ignores everything and high BC synergie Wu ult doesn't inst stack BC, it's actually a noob trap item on him. The %shred on Q is enough to deal with tanks though, though he's busted for other reasons.

Jax and irelia are usually targeting squishy targets, and their high sustained dps+mixed damage makes it still hard to deal with them as tank.

Bruiser have enough tools to deal with tanks, and if not in their kit, then through items like BC and BotrK. Lifesteal overall is strong if you want to 1v1 tanks, they lack the raw damage to really cut through high sustain. The atmpmt of riot to make bruiser viable by allowing them to shred down anything real quickly 1v1 is just unhealthy and not needed. If they want to help bruiser, they need to help their teamfighting which means more durabillity vs multiple opponents and better ways to deal with CC(or simply less CC in the game)

Ahpe2 votes

She never even took Conqueror but I'm offended you never mentioned Camille.

AirKingNeo2 votes

lol what Kayn (Rhaast) nor Urgot even have a keystone. They literally cannot use any keystone effectively.

Darius was shit before Conqueror.

Are you sure you researched this topic well enough?

Ralanr2 votes

Urgot can use press the attack though.

SwiftKitten882 votes

its posts like this why i never judge a post but the author, but by the content of the post..

i have seen this OP spew out a fair amount of complete nonsense... but this post is dead on....

+1

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

its posts like this why i never judge a post but the author, but by the content of the post..

i have seen this OP spew out a fair amount of complete nonsense... but this post is dead on....

+1

Uhm?

Flavi Kang2 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=HateDaddy

Why the fuck are you even giving balance ideas when you haven't played a single game this season with a conqueror bruiser?

"I think bruisers are overkill because they do true damage and true damage is always op regardless of what everyone says, even though I don't understand why riot made a keystone for melees that does true damage"

HateDaddy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Flavi Kang,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GqtpMwgd,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2018-07-16T01:43:04.353+0000)

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=HateDaddy

Why the fuck are you even giving balance ideas when you haven't played a single game this season with a conqueror bruiser?

"I think bruisers are overkill because they do true damage and true damage is always op regardless of what everyone says, even though I don't understand why riot made a keystone for melees that does true damage"

Says the guy using an account that has absolutely no recent activity at all lol.

It’s funny you say this and straw man my entire argument while attacking my credentials, as if that somehow makes my argument any less true. Moreover, it’s clear you don’t understand the base of my argument, much less even read it. Nevertheless, I’ll humor you sir of hypocrisy because I’ve got a moment to spare. You’re correct, I have not played very much this season...on this account. And admittedly, this is the least amount of time I’ve ever spent playing league since I began in s2. However, I have played quite a bit on LAN, sharing a friends account in blind normals (obviously Im not going to post this account) and leveling one for myself so we can eventually flex. Here’s the account:

http://lan.op.gg/summoner/userName=PadreDeOdio

Lastly, I’ve been playing since season 2. I have been diamond in the last 4 seasons and plat 1 in season 3, when plat was still an accomplishment. I’m already incredibly well-informed about the ins and outs of this game and have a remarkably high fundamental understanding of the game that will translate to any advancement the game makes patch-wise. Given that I’ve played some, watch quite a few top lane streamers still (Quas [whenever he actually streams], SickMotion and WingsofDeath), i think it’s entirely safe to say I’m well-versed enough in the games current patch(es) to elaborate on my thoughts here - not that I needed to, but since you so kindly requested I verify my involvement in the game, I felt obliged to acquiesce your request. You’re welcome.

InTheory2 votes

please #MORE self-adulation

I verify my own statement to be true just by stating more statements about how awesome I am.

This has nothing to do with argumentation, discussion, reasoning.

Flavi Kang1 votes

Lastly, I’ve been playing since season 2. I have been diamond in the last 4 seasons and plat 1 in season 3, when plat was still an accomplishment. I’m already incredibly well-informed about the ins and outs of this game and have a remarkably high fundamental understanding of the game that will translate to any advancement the game makes patch-wise. Given that I’ve played some, watch quite a few top lane streamers still (Quas [whenever he actually streams], SickMotion and WingsofDeath), i think it’s entirely safe to say I’m well-versed enough in the games current patch(es) to elaborate on my thoughts here - not that I needed to, but since you so kindly requested I verify my involvement in the game, I felt obliged to acquiesce your request. You’re welcome.

This is good copy-pasta material. Just borrowing, dont mind me.

I’m already incredibly well-informed about the ins and outs of this game and have a remarkably high fundamental understanding of the game that will translate to any advancement the game makes patch-wise

God damn. Why don't you apply to join the balance team, I'm sure they'll hire you based on this statement. You are the hero and savior this game needs right now.

Given that I’ve played some, watch quite a few top lane streamers still (Quas [whenever he actually streams], SickMotion and WingsofDeath), i think it’s entirely safe to say I’m well-versed enough in the games current patch(es) to elaborate on my thoughts here

So you think you're a balance expert just by watching streamers. That's some next level talent.

You’re correct, I have not played very much this season...on this account. And admittedly, this is the least amount of time I’ve ever spent playing league since I began in s2

THEN WHY. THE FUCK. ARE YOU GIVING BALANCE IDEAS. FOR TOP LANE. AND CONQUEROR. IN SEASON 8. WHEN YOU BARELY PLAY THE GAME.

?????????????

Bouncemaster Zac2 votes

You forgot Darius has a passive Last Whisper. Building armor against him is an active waste of gold.

KING XXXI2 votes

Thing is, most champions you listed here aren't bruisers and usually take Press the Attack/Grasp of the Undying over Conqueror. You don't need to take my word for it just go on op.gg.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

Srry HD Conquerer is balanced because NA Super Top said so :((((((((((((((((((

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5IX3bKSmj4

Sweet Tennessee1 votes

Just need to make it so tank items are so linear that there is little thought of counterplay. It's always sunfire->tabi->spirit visage because the other tank items are either ass or extremely situational to make use of. Meanwhile, although hash doesn't want to admit it bruisers do have a pretty wide selection of items to pick from.

LordGeovanni2 votes

bruisers are just as shoe horned as tanks because they build 4/6 tank items but hash is stupid blaming tanks for it he made a video showing what happened but he didnt figure it out with his own thoughts so it doesnt stick. so he goes around blaming anyone. He mostly blames tanks because tanks are in direct opposition for fighters in top lane for popularity 'Squishy' champions get far too much defense natually and Defense items do far too little. But even more so Defense does far too much negateing damage in the earlier points of armor and magic resist and not enough in the later points of armor and magic resist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y25C_LHJ5pk

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