You don't miss strategy nearly as much as you claim

Moody P··36 votes·6,096 views

In fact I'm pretty sure most of you hate:

  • Getting counterpicked

Self explanatory.

  • Counterpick champions

Deride them as binary and toxic but never actually say why this is a bad thing. It's just bad because it's bad even though they're the exact thing you should be wanting in League, because they enforce strategy.

  • Generalist champions

Because, naturally, you're self-contradictory. (Of course, mages and tanks are exempt from this; we love them unconditionally.)

  • New strategies like Int Sion, Zz'rot stack, anyone going into a lane you wouldn't expect them to/don't want them to

Because you might have to play or pick differently. And that kills strategy.

  • Champions that force you to make macro decisions over winning automatically you juked a skillshot

Because you might have to play differently.

  • When your champion might not be a good pick for the game

It's not always your meta. Accept that.

What you should say when you claim to yearn for strategy is that you really wish you could always play your one-trick and not be challenged by anything new. Anything that makes your champion less favorable or outright bad on a per-game basis isn't fair to you, but anything your champion might do that ruins the enjoyment of someone else is completely fine. Anything that doesn't let you play the way you want is bad, even if it's intended to counter you; Akali dumping on targeted damage, Illaoi obliterating tank-stacking, Yasuo countering ranged, Janna shutting down bruisers, the list goes on.

When you say you miss strategy you conveniently forget that this includes everything you don't like dealing with. You don't want anything that makes life harder for you to get stronger, because that would mean you'd have to adjust, which means there's less strategy..

I don't claim to be above any of this. I'd just like to point it out since you guys have been echoing this sentiment.

Just remember that everything that lead up to where we are right now are things that you asked for and celebrated in the past.

43 Comments

FilDaFunk27 votes

Counterpicking was a huge part of league. A part I definitely enjoyed, but it was never the final decision in the game. Once we transitioned to teamfights, the dynamic shifted, significantly, to team synergy and macroplay.

"you might have to play or pick differently" The prime example for me was facing Leblanc mid. You rushed a negatron cloak into abyssal sceptre and played passively to avoid feeding her. You accept that you won't win the lane and farm so you can be useful lategame, where she falls off.

Actually, due to the "power" of counterpicks, you couldn't have one-trick players and there was a lot of variation of the champs you saw in the game (kind of dropped dead when Zed and Yasuo were there in EVERY game).

What you listed just seems to be all the strategy in this game, apart from objective control. But, everything you mentioned is what made every game different, I enjoyed considering all the factors.

Flawless Fetus1 votes

Beat me to it. Your comment is worth about 8 of his posts.

D357R0Y3R11 votes

yasuo counters ranged champions and get rekt by melees like renekton

-->toxic and needs to be deleted

Thefrostyviking17 votes

{quoted}

yasuo counters ranged champions and get rekt by melees like renekton

-->toxic and needs to be deleted

Countering ranged is one thing.

Completely negating core parts of their kits whenever he feels like in a teamfight making them useless is another.

That and his combo dealing 80% of a squishies health while he takes less damage back due to his passive+passive reset+items like phantom dancer also help piss people off.

Now add this with how like at around 50% of all the champs have a projectile skill or even ult they want to land that yas can just laugh off on a moments notice and its no wonder he pisses people off.

He not only deals more damage, he prevents damage from being sent back.

ShaolinToilet2 votes

Completely negating? How???

Thefrostyviking3 votes

{quoted}

Completely negating? How???

Windwall, if he throws it up at key times many, possibly most, mages and ranged champs become quite useless.

And as a skirmisher his ability to instantly gapclose as followup with his ult for free while dealing tons of damage is quite nasty as well but that would be more acceptable if he didnt just wall anyone he feels like out whenever he pleases.

Yasou is beatable but its a massive pain in the arse and people always have to stay on their toes <.<

IEatDolphins6 votes

I mean you could just rotate around the windwall so its not completely negating their kit. (Just replying to your windwall statement)

Thefrostyviking2 votes

{quoted}

I mean you could just rotate around the windwall so its not completely negating their kit. (Just replying to your windwall statement)

Rotating around the windwall works fine usually if talking 1v1 but its far more difficult in a skirmish or a teamfight.

Usually one would never even attempt it later on, and there is the thing with how he can cover his entire hitbox pretty much inside it.

D357R0Y3R2 votes

yes

as i said

he hardcounters ranged champions

do you know what the definition of hardcountering is?

good

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

yes

as i said

he hardcounters ranged champions

do you know what the definition of hardcountering is?

good

And how fair is it exactly, that a single champ counters core abilities/aspects from more than 50% of the champs in the game?

No one else does it so hard.

No one is so good 1v1 while still having massive wombo potential and even utility combined with survival tools, like his passive, and ult resetting passive.

I also dont recall his ult safety tool having been removed either, the one where it forcefully positions him as close to the edge of tower range as possible or outside if at all possible.

Its one thing to be a 1v1 specialist like say Fiora/trynda/yi, but they all have the key aspect of being highly vulnerable to teamplay effort while not really contributing much in a teamfight,,,,,,Yasou on the other hand doesnt have anywhere near the same problem even though he is only a single step behind them in 1v1 potential.

Like if we look at his teamfight damage/impact potential......his Q is average, his third Q is great and ultimate is amazing being great followup that is almost certain to kill any non tanks caught in it.

His windwall gives him the ability to isolate targets or just protect himself or his team while also shutting downs tons ultimates from others, which is priceless.

While also having lots of safety tools and handholding built into his hyperscaling kit,........i´d be amazed if people didnt get pissed as hell about this guy.

No other champ with hyperscaling or teamfight potential has ever had so much safety built into their kit aside from Tristana, and she was gutted over and over for it to the point where she now has 46% winrate and 6% playrate and 0,2 % banrate according to league of graphs dia+.

Yasou meanwhile has 21% playrate and 47% winrate and 37% banrate.

What in the world justifies him not being given the tristana treatment? He has the exact same issue as she did being a champ that at a moments notice can become a absolute monster and just dominate games on his own.

What in the world lets him be so good in so many different areas while also having so many protective measures built into his kit? He is absolutely singular in this aspect, i literally dont know any other champ that is so good at both 1v1 and teamfights with his level of scaling.

Fondling Gems1 votes

Going to point out that Yasuo can also just walk through his windwall to be back on the other side of it, and due to that fact that it has no cast time it naturally shuts down projectiles since they have a travel time.

Thus a Yasuo with good reflexes can always negate a projectile if their windwall it up and they aren't cc'd. Also note most hard CC that would allow you to use projectiles on him are projectiles themselves.


Note that I don't actually hate fighting Yasuo, but his windwall is probably the strongest non-damaging ability in the game, and even including damaging abilities is still an insanely powerful tool.

DoktorKaiser2 votes

He actually shits on melee too due to his constant Q harass. Of course early game monster like Renek will win the lane, but some poor tanks will get shit on.

3TWarrior11 votes

I don't think most players that complain about there not being enough strategy mention the things you do...

getting counter-picked has always been a part of the game, but something which has become a part recently is having enough free damage that if you do not handle the situation perfectly, the opponent will snowball out of control

not many people complain about playing AGAINST an int sion, but people do complain about playing against Viktor because he has a very small window of opportunity to get ahead of him

Champions that have you interact with them differently are not a bad thing, but champions that FORCE you to interact that way or lose are a bad thing

let's take illaoi Illaoi , On one hand, she is arguably toxic because she has immense power with few tradeoffs. On the other hand, all of her skillshots are slow, she is immobile, she is very item dependent, she requires time to set up, her ult is her only real strength and her skillshots contain her entire power budget. Despite her huge power, she says it herself that broken bones teach better lessons. If you let her hit you with her easily avoidable damage or rush into situations that she favors, she is going to win because you chose to forget the basics and not dodge her skillshots

  • compare that to yasuo Yasuo , who automatically ruins every ranged combo in the game unless you break his shield or are a convenient counterpick to him (which places you into counter-attack range or wastes an ability), he gains free stats throughout his kit, is very mobile, scales into a defensive hyper carry with the earliest late game power spike in the game, has a basic ability that SURPASSES ULTIMATES IN POWER and more

along with other champions that just have unconditional power thrown at them. there's Akali Lucian(though at least he is a numbers issue, but has riot changed him at all after worlds?) Gangplank became a lane bully that suppresses interaction with his barrels, it's almost impossible to balance OFF-POSITION picks because they use the opponents' learned behaviors against them but I support that "meta" is not the one and only way to play the game

You're saying that people are complaining about strategy, but you're not. What people are really complaining about is that damage has gotten so high that burst damage is more efficient than what composes the strategy of league, such as: utility, positioning, in some cases map awareness, vision(did you know that Talon can harass from caitlynn's auto attack range for 3x the damage? ), and at the worst of times: TEAM COMPOSITION

People are complaining about elements that REMOVE strategy and gameplay in favor of dealing with unfair benefits. A lot of time Riot promotes this as "interaction" but instead it removes interaction and caters to the player of those champions

Moody P5 votes

On one hand, she is arguably toxic because she has immense power with few tradeoffs.

and then you list a bunch of tradeoffs..

?

3TWarrior1 votes

the power itself does not and for her intended purpose, it is not much, but it is balanced and does not interrupt either player's gameplay.

if we want to look at it another way, most people complain about illaoi because of her power, but that does not mean these complaints are correct, hence, one hand and the other hand

Titanium7011 votes

Who are you even arguing with? Everyone who likes the current state will probably agree with you but... you almost got everything wrong if you really want to argue with the people who actually miss the strategy in this game.

Counterpicks are good for the game since they keep certain champions in check - favoring generalists in champselect and promote team interaction by trading picks. It only becomes a problem is the 'counterpick' auto-counters halve of the roaster and becomes an easy blind pick this way....

And when exactly became 'changing your playstyle' a bad thing? Adapting your build to the opponents is something interesting, it makes you think about what you're buying. Back in the days it was completely normal for a carry or a mage to get one full defensive item. Not just boots! Usually Banshee or Randuins.


That being said I dont even consider this points the core of the problem. What really made League interesting on a strategic level were teamcomps. And those basicly dont exist anymore.

Can anyone remember the days of Ori J4 who were able to singlehandedly win Games once flashes were down? These days 4/5 Champs just smash their panic buttons and turn the fight....

You pick what ever 3 Bruiser/Assassins + Lucian/Brand and get a decent game with. That's so braindead and has no counters!

The game was based on roles - you tried to cover as much of them in champselect as possible and used your pick for what ever your team at this point needed. This way you won alot of games.

You had the ADC for lategame and Siege. You had the APC for midgame and Waveclear. You had the Bruiser/Assassin for earlygame and dives. You had the Tank for engage and soaking dmg. You had the Support for disengage and peel.

What ever Team you picked always needed a good mixture of DMG - you lack it, you autoloose at minute 20-25 to 5 Randuins/5Banshess on the enemy Team. No waveclear sucked hard since you lost ALOT of map pressure. No Siege sucked since you were unable to properly end games without it. No engage sucked if the enemys could poke you into oblivion.

These days.... ADC? There's neither a late nor a need for siege... Get Baron and its game... APC? Waveclear? I have Tiamat! Magic DMG? I have Conquerer who cares about Armor! Midgame? I just jump on whoever whenever and can get the kill!! IreliaIreliaIreliaIrelia Tank? Pick Rammus VS 5 ADs! Dies in 1.5s => ROFL! Report this troll! No DMG! Support?? Disengage and peel? Cool stroy bro, try to peel away Irelia+Yasuo+Pyke+Camille at once! MORE DMG!! Brand


'Strategy' is lost since the end of Season 5 which before that Juggernautpatch was my favorite Season to play in since Season 2. It became a fungame to play with friends - any compeditive interest I once had is almost entirely gone. Snowballing Clowfiestas aren't compeditive!


Not matter the circumstances.. as long as this: Irelia Camille Yasuo Lucian Pyke Is considered a good blindpickable Teamcomp, this games state is ** and it will go down the way of all the flashy mainstream titles eventually.

3TWarrior1 votes

I think y ou meant to say that the game used to be based on weighing the pros and cons of what you choose compared to a standard or meta setup. Damage is so high now that you have to be a lot more careful or it's even outright impossible, which ruins the majority of it

Titanium701 votes

Yeah that summs up alot of what I wrote. ^^ Although I'd not blame the DMG trend for it entirely. It's part of the problem that's for sure.

Another part is that pretty much anyone can do anything. Tanks and Mages kill Towers. ADCs have burst and mobility typical for assassins. Assassins clearing waves. ... and the list goes on...

Sadly that's a systematical issue. Where DMG could be fixed in a few patches (if wanted), the later one is something that grew over years.

Moody P1 votes

Every game being death ball vs death ball wasn't an interesting strategy. Stacking the best teamfight to steamroll the other and that being the only thing to do? That sucked

Rock MD8 votes

Congrats. You have reached peak enlightenment.

Moody P3 votes

ofc excludes me hehe i love strategy, DAE miss when league had strategy?

buff volibear

Rock MD4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj9cnflG,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2018-12-08T19:06:47.446+0000)

ofc excludes me hehe i love strategy, DAE miss when league had strategy?

buff volibear

My general rule of thumb is if you haven't played in D3 or above you haven't gotten a taste of strategy in your entire League career. You just run around and think one play that changes the entire teamfight is pure strategic genius.

But the players who peaked Gold 3 and play normals w/ their D5 friends will tell you otherwise.

Moody P2 votes

i only just now broke into diamond (in preseason so i guess doesn't count) after about 3 years of being stuck-ish/giving up midseason in high plat. i wouldn't say i know strategy very well, or at least I don't execute it as good as I should, but my champs generally lend themselves to having to be more worried about map decisions than outplay, since i only play juggernauts

not sure what i can do to get higher since it looks like most of my main champs tend to peak around d4-d3 so I might have to adjust somehow. i'd like to say them being mediocre overall doesn't help but if people can get high elo with old urgot then i've got no excuse

Rock MD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj9cnflG,comment-id=0008000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-08T19:15:45.380+0000)

i only just now broke into diamond (in preseason so i guess doesn't count) after about 3 years of being stuck-ish/giving up midseason in high plat. i wouldn't say i know strategy very well, or at least I don't execute it as good as I should, but my champs generally lend themselves to having to be more worried about map decisions than outplay, since i only play juggernauts

not sure what i can do to get higher since it looks like most of my main champs tend to peak around d4-d3 so I might have to adjust somehow. i'd like to say them being mediocre overall doesn't help but if people can get high elo with old urgot then i've got no excuse

An irl friend peaked D1 maining old Urgot lmao

Moody P1 votes

based

how do i get high elo skills? i don't watch streams or pro play or anything so i've been gunning blind for like 5 years

Rock MD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj9cnflG,comment-id=000800000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-08T19:36:20.095+0000)

based

how do i get high elo skills? i don't watch streams or pro play or anything so i've been gunning blind for like 5 years

What I've found works pretty well is minimizing risk and only going for surefire plays.

Also, if you're losing your lane focus on losing it as gracefully as possible. It's better for you to be 30 cs down and LB to be on par with everyone else on your team than it is for you to be on par with everyone while she's fed. On par LB still dies pretty easily. Fed LB requires specific picks to die (Rakan, Malz, etc.)

Going for risky ones usually involves your team backing you up and while you want to play around teammates, it's dumb to rely on them.

Moody P1 votes

should I swap off Illaoi/Volibear for safer picks, then? I still maintain decent-ish winrates even despite the not favorable meta atm but maybe I should shuffle more games onto Urgot since he doesn't really lose and scales best

Rock MD1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj9cnflG,comment-id=00080000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-08T20:01:35.744+0000)

should I swap off Illaoi/Volibear for safer picks, then? I still maintain decent-ish winrates even despite the not favorable meta atm but maybe I should shuffle more games onto Urgot since he doesn't really lose and scales best

Illaoi is fine. Meta vs. off meta isn't nearly as damning as people would have you believe.

Especially in top lane it's a matter of restraint in knowing when and how to split, how to pressure anyone else on your side of the map (taking the opposing jungler's camps, for example), and when you need to group.

Yes, even as Tryndamere sometimes you need to group. Just try to figure out for yourself when the optimal time is.

deadlychuck5 votes

It's stupid to call "Counter picking" a champion "strategy", because most of that is done through statistic analytics and has nothing to do with actual decision making. Who's the best counter to X? Well let me just google that really quick... or maybe you already know the stats because you've played against the champion so much... That's not strategy and I wouldn't even call it game knowledge.

Moody P3 votes

It's stupid to call "Counter picking" a champion "strategy"

counterpicks are a strategy for the counterpicked, not the counterpicker; most times that you're counter-picked and actually getting stepped on it was just an unfortunate coincidence that you ran into a main/OTP of that champion (e.g every tank top who plays into me, an Illaoi main). It's on you to overcome being countered and make the most of what you can do with the game, and if they're just using LOLcounters to hastily counter you with something then odds are you'll stomp them into the dirt.

most of that is done through statistic analytics and has nothing to do with actual decision making.

If you want to ignore the entire reason why those numbers end up the way they do, sure.

ManBearPig9163 votes

If they would boost runes access to stats so that, say, I could get my 27 armor and 27 magic resist runes again, and if they fleshed out other defensive runes remastered options to be equal in presence as choices compared to all the offensive runes available, then strategy would emerge again. Lives would be longer, kits could actually be used in engages, all those many, many lethality items would have more armor to actually do work on, and the game would have a back and forth flow again.

Perhaps even raising health numbers available on health items would help with choices to combat these extra damage runes reforged stats that provide more non-kit damage compared to a few seasons ago. Rylai's could use more than 300 health, as just an example. Many other items are at 300 health, which is a joke considering you could have 3000 health as a mage or any role, and just fall in this meta within seconds, if not a single second.

We need more health on items, and we need more rune-style access to armor and magic resists. Then, the pace of the game would approach older paces, and we can observe a familiar game again.

Rock MD1 votes

{quoted}

If they would boost runes access to stats so that, say, I could get my 27 armor and 27 magic resist runes again, and if they fleshed out other defensive runes remastered options to be equal in presence as choices compared to all the offensive runes available, then strategy would emerge again. Lives would be longer, kits could actually be used in engages, all those many, many lethality items would have more armor to actually do work on, and the game would have a back and forth flow again.

Perhaps even raising health numbers available on health items would help with choices to combat these extra damage runes reforged stats that provide more non-kit damage compared to a few seasons ago. Rylai's could use more than 300 health, as just an example. Many other items are at 300 health, which is a joke considering you could have 3000 health as a mage or any role, and just fall in this meta within seconds, if not a single second.

We need more health on items, and we need more rune-style access to armor and magic resists. Then, the pace of the game would approach older paces, and we can observe a familiar game again.

What you're talking about is simply raising defenses across the board.

That doesn't increase strategy. That forgives mistakes. Making the game more forgiving reduces strategy because it doesn't matter if you err.

You can say you want to increase defenses because the game is too punishing right now but stop parading around like some self-righteous genius strategist.

Death by Glamour2 votes

Getting counterpicked

Counterpick champions

Generalist champions

still happens now and several generalist champions coughs Ahri Coughs among othersare doing fairly well

New strategies like Int Sion, Zz'rot stack, anyone going into a lane you wouldn't expect them to/don't want them to

or top viktor, lets be honest though most of these sort of picks get nerfed because of pro play as opposed to soloQ

Champions that force you to make macro decisions over winning automatically you juked a skillshot

Evelynn Shaco still exist

Moody P1 votes

thank you for proving my point, we hate everyone you listed

i don't know i'd call Ahri a generalist as much as I'd call her a safety pick

Death by Glamour1 votes

im not disagreeing with what you said its just that these things occur now as it has done in the past

what people want is for "trades" not to feel like all ins and for snowballing to be toned the hell down

Marshbouy2 votes

This is way too real.

Additionally, no one wants to make educated decisions about fights and position accordingly. Everyone just wants to bitch about why they got bursted so fast on a squishy champion in a 1v1 situation with an assassin.

D4M2X02 votes

this is the first time ever that an entire class has been useless (tanks.) some ADC's are playable at least. 4--2--0

SUPERSATANA1 votes

Amen.

ADC Yuumi1 votes

If I had 1 RP for each person who thought I was trolling with Jinx Support, I'd have all Lux skins.

Bouncemaster Zac1 votes

I can't remember the last time I counterpicked, or used a ban to prevent counterpicks. I wish I had access to strategic decision-making in Champ select, but bans are sadly reserved for preventing the enemy from abusing whatever is most likely to guarantee a win that patch.

Zapzya1 votes

I like counterpicks that give someone a favorable matchup, not ones that autowin the lane for them. When you say counterpick champions, I think of champions with kits designed to shit on a specific gameplay style, or in other words, autowinning some lanes. I don't think it's too much to ask for neither extreme to be the case (no counterpicks vs autowin counterpicks).

I don't understand what you mean by generalist champions, do you mean champs who can do everything?

In regards to new strategies, I don't think it's bad to dislike some of them. Banner of command was a very effective strategy, but I don't see you defending that. Gold funneling is similar, putting all your gold into one champion is a strategic risk, no reason to hate that right? Some of the play patterns that certain strategies encourage are just really annoying to play/ play against.

It's not just one tricks complaining about the lack of strategy. I wouldn't say I one trick anything, I do play a lot of mages I guess. This preseason, I've played relatively few games compared to normal, but my strategy for most was "kill the enemy before they can react". I didn't feel encouraged to play any other strategy, eg scaling for late doesn't work and extended trading will just lose to insta kill.

Regardless, I'm not sure what most people want when they ask for strategy. This post just seems excessively derisive and strawmans legitimate criticism.

Lovelle1 votes

I'm used to being counerpicked, as mobility and burst counter the champions I enjoy playing, but part of strategy is working around those uphill situations. I personally feel like those options are few and far between these days. Counter-building in particular doesn't feel very strong at all anymore, as it seems like I just explode no matter how much defense I typically try to build. Even champs like Olaf, Darius, and Udyr just seem to rush damage now (BC into Steraks, most games are over by this point). Nobody really builds defensive items anymore unless they directly scale with resistances and/or don't have very good offensive options (i.e. tanks and fighters that don't benefit from rushing pure damage items or Black Cleaver).

Everybody does too much damage, particularly early on in the game. It makes everything feel very reaction-based instead of strategic. It feels like every game is won at champion select compared to earlier seasons. Whatever does the most damage, the most reliably (i.e. without dying themselves) wins the game, simple as that. Goes for every class of champions.

Daizumi1 votes

Thank you. Someone had to say it. You earned my upvote

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