So, after playing against many zeds...i noticed something....he does too much dmg....like, while all the other assassin have been gutted and gutted again, zed's damage remains untouched...why? he arguably has the most mobility out of any assassin, has a very powerful ult that can be used both offensively and defensively...why does he need to have more dmg output then every other assassin on top of this?
IP Masquerena22 votesI'll just copy paste a comment I made on another thread:
Broken means a kit design problem, which he sure fucking has, overpowered is a number problem.
Right now Zed is over powered by all definitions except for people who just try to stretch the definition of overpowered to fit their needs.
Currently classified as S+ tier for mid on U.GG and here are his per rank stats (from U.GG, I'll give them in this order, win, pick, ban)
I mean, at that play rate and ban rate, 49.9% can't even be considered a negative win rate, so basically, Zed has huge play rates, no negative winrates across the board and is considered one of the hardest champs to play in the game, one of the easiest to counter and he's not good in places where people communicate a lot and know how to play, yet his highest win rate is in Challenger, where people know how to counter, where people know how to play and they communicate. If he was so easy to counter and all you had to do is build Seeker's to "nullify all his damage" as everyone sais, why is his lowest win rate in places where people DON'T BUILD SEEKER'S yet his highest is where people know how to counter him?
He may need a lot of skill and mechanical knowledge to play to perfection, that's true and I won't deny it, but his skill floor.....I'd probably put him at Tryndamere level. If he didn't had such play rates in low elo, his win rate in his current state would be much higher.
Let's compare to Riven for example, who's a champion called "OMFGBBQOPBROKENMETA" by pretty much everyone here, or at least, the vast majority:
Iron: 44.33%, 5.3%, 2% Bronze: 45.5%, 5.5%, 2.1% Silver: 47.8%, 6.7%, 2.8% Gold: 49.8%, 8.4%, 4.2% Platinum: 51.07%, 10.1%, 6.8% Diamond: 52.76%, 11.8%, 12.6% Master: 54.03%, 10.7%, 16,6% Grandmaster: 54.35%, 11%, 20.7% Challenger: 53.62%, 11%, 19.8%
So she only wins more than Zed between Diamond and Grandmaster and is only banned more than him in Challenger, yet she's always played less than him. If Zed had her play rate in Iron, Bronze and Silver, he'd be close to 60% there, but even at almost triple her play rate, he's still in positive win rates, yet she's.....well, struggling so to put it. Yes, Conqueror, DD and Spear make her strong, but she's still hard to play. Is she stronger than she needs to be? A bit, yes, but she still shows she's hard to play, look at the stats. If she's over powered, then Zed outclasses her by a lot.
(all stats are in each's main lane, no Support Riven or JG Zed interfering with their stats)
Zed needs nerfs, starting with his passive being stopped from working on creeps. Wanna know why he has such a high win rate in lower elos? He farms too easy, with his 30 free bonus damage for LH from his passive, making him get his items too easy, and Zed has no issues killing with items, even if he misses Q, since that's the skill he maxes first, and that shouldn't happen unless the enemy is like 200 HP, but in that case, why the hell didn't you back off when against an Assassin?
Someone said that there's no reason to pick Zed when Talon is free, so let's look at Talon's stats:
Iron: 49.79%, 9.6%, 7.3% Bronze: 48.27%, 9.5%, 7.6% Silver: 48.72%, 7.7%, 6% Gold: 50%, 6.8%, 5.8% Platinum: 51.25%, 6.9%, 6.5% Diamond: 53.64%, 7.2%, 10.3% Master: 52.82%, 6.7%, 13.8% Grandmaster: 57.2%, 6.1%, 16% Challenger: 58.66%, 6.2%, 19.3%
Basically, unless you're in Diamond or Grandmaster, there's no reason to pick Talon if Zed is free other than preference if you're Platinum, Master or Challenger. All in all, despite Talon being a medium difficulty champ and Zed being an intensive mechanically difficulty champion, if you're low elo, pick Zed not Talon, you're guaranteed a better chance at winning. If you're Grandmaster, yea, pick Talon, if you're Plat, Diamond, Master or Challenger, pick which ever you like better, or Zed, having the same-ish winrate at a much higher popularity makes Zed better than Talon.
Ragnaveil9 votesFirst off, Riven isn't struggling. Any data below plat has no meaning for her since shes main exclusive, and most of them are raking in the LP with her massively overtuned damage.
The only nerf Zed needs is how his R damage works. Right now it stores damage that IGNORES defensive stats, meaning he can deal a shit ton of damage with a dirk alone. "the mark stores a percentage of all pre-mitigation physical and magic damage Zed and his Shadows deal to the target, detonating at the end of the duration to deal physical damage."
25% at rank 1, when defensive items are still in the works. I can see why mages bitch Seekers doesn't work and its because of that. The mark storage needs to be just the damage he deals, not pre-mitigation. Its the reason why tanks die like paper to him when in REALITY he shouldn't be doing such.
IP Masquerena6 votesI think you missed the point of why I showcased Riven.
I did say myself that she's in a stronger spot that she should be, so I did acknowledged that she's not fine, but the reason why I showcased her was the entry point between her and Zed.
You can't just pick up Riven and be done with it. Low win rates especially in lower elos showcase that point exactly. If you just pick her and decide "ok, I'm gonna stomp as Riven", you probably won't. Yes, there are games where you will because the enemy a dumb monkey, I had that vs a Yi when I decided to give her a try, he kept tower diving me and I kept stunning him there for him to die, but outside of those scenarios, Riven isn't something you can play instantly, you need some practice on before you can win with, yet Zed's high win rates for his supposed difficulty showcase that he's actually easy to pick up and win with.
That's the main reason why I posted the stats for her. If she's OP at her difficulty, the Zed is borderline toxic. Plus, in higher elos, their win rates are similar until challenger, where he outclasses her hard.
WalkingInACircle8 votesThere's nothing difficult about Zed. He has one skillshot which has a large AoE and a slow to help him land it. A multishuriken is a target ground. Everything else is targetted damage and his blinks. He gets free cs, no resource, easy gameplay pattern.
bronze smurf6917 votesPress R, miss half your combo like 2-3 shurikens, e aa ignite, get kill anyway.
High risk high reward my ass. That's the very reason why i ban that piece of shit champion. Even with a fuckin 
it doesn't matter.
I use to respect Zed and didn't mind going against him, but ever since lethality, that champ is just unfair.
Velzard of Koz9 voteshe arguably has the most mobility out of any assassin
????? What drugs are you tripping on
Compare that to Zed's short-range blink in basic kit and two decent-range blinks in ult and at best you can say he is on par with some less mobile assasins.
Zed is frustrating to play against and may have some problems, but this sentence alone shows you just came here complaining with bias while not actually critically thinking about anything because saying he has most mobility out of any assassin is not just wrong but plain dumb, especially since Akali exists.
has a very powerful ult that can be used both offensively and defensively
Which assassin's ult cannot?
Fizz can throw fish into your face for rapid slow and knockup to run away; additionally it's extremly good zoning and isolation tool.
Akali can dash to another side of universe, potentially microstunning you in the process; and can deal even higher damage than Zed's ult to multiple people If used with good teamcomp
I hope I don't even have to explain why Ekko's ult is much better defensively; and offensively it's much more telegraphed but can deal higher damage than Zed's ult to multiple people.
Quiyana can knock-back, stun and damage several targets with max hp scaling; the knock-back isn't the most powerful defensive tool but can be easily used as one.
why does he need to have more dmg output then every other assassin on top of this?
He doesn't. If I wanted to be lazy I'd just list Akali who is known for overkilling targets. Then there are Rengar, Evelynn, LB, Shadow Assasin Kayn etc. who at worst are equal and quite certainly even better.
Also his burst pattern is relatively fair when you compare that to what Rengar, LB, Shadow Assasin Kayn can do.
He's BS to play against but you barely provided any non-biased points.
MiracleMorg942 votesAhri isn't an assassin though, she's a hybrid of a burst mage and assassin.
IainG108 votesFor what it's worth, I think Blue Kayn has the best mobility of any assassin; no lockout on his wall bypass, get's a hunge speed boost, and it has a low CD
DGAGAAsharpAGD8 voteswhile all the other assassin have been gutted and gutted again
There is no reason to pick Zed if Talon is open.
DuskDaUmbreon13 votesDouble moral damage from Edgelord class is a good reason.
Xavanic29 votesThere is no reason to pick Zed if Talon is open.
but yet everyone goes zed instead of talon.....
HopeStartsWithU5 votesZed is a lot more fun than Talon. Talon is pretty braindead compared to Zed lul
Btw that is just my opinion, I suck on both champs. But I like to play Zed a lot compared to Talon
Voluug135 votesNo champion that has mana is more braindead that Zed. Its factually impossible, just for the fact that you have to actually manage a limited, slow regenerating resource.
Blyr2 votesExcept Talon. Talon is more braindead than Zed lmao.
HopeStartsWithU4 votesI really thought about writing a long ass text about why your comment (and your bias) couldn't be more wrong. But then I realised I have been downvoted for saying Zed is,** IN MY OPINION**, more fun than Talon and at the same time siginificantly harder.
At the same time some dude said "it's factually impossible" with the only argument being that Zed has energy instead of mana. Which, in fact, makes it harder to throw out MORE than one rotation compared to mana champs, especially important on assassin roles so they aren't useless even if they CDs are back up (and if you didn't understand: Zed still has to wait for his energy even if all of his CDs are up, Talon doesn't, he can just pull out another rotation of abilities).
Meaning, no facts have been stated against my (provocative) opinion.
But, eh, not worth the time.
The Chillin5 votesThese people know they're wrong they just like shitposting and getting upvotes from other bad players. Anyone with half a braincell knows Zed is fine right now.
IP Masquerena3 votesFine by what standards?
Some tracking sites have him as most banned champ in the game, couple that with no negative win rates in any elo, high play rate and him supposedly being a "high skill champ", something doesn't add up.
Might be the fact that he's the only high skill champ with no negative win rates maybe?
So yes, by what standards is he fine? Garen standards, then sure, he's fine. "Mechanically intense champ" standards he's overtuned. It's all by what standards he's looked at.
By Zed mains standards he's an unpickable bad champ.
RainbowIcee4 votesI pick talon over zed because idk how to play zed well. Also for some reason the clone on the ult doesn't always work for me.
1 516 735 35086 votesSo, after playing against many zeds...i noticed something....he does too much dmg....like, while all the other assassin have been gutted and gutted again, zed's damage remains untouched...why? he arguably has the most mobility out of any assassin, has a very powerful ult that can be used both offensively and defensively...why does he need to have more dmg output then every other assassin on top of this?
Zed doesn't do too much damage. It's just easy for zed to do too much damage against players who have no concept of itemization, scaling, spacing and threat.
Zed right now, is actually weak because he is bad in more situations than he is good.
Even the adcs and the mages he is supposed to do well against can 1v1 him after midgame and his splitting and map control when he gets ahead isn't what it used to be either.
You shouldn't let zed get ideal engagements.
Not that any of this matters in very low mmr play.
Just be happy that if zed doesn't go up 2 kills AND stack a cull he pretty much lost lane :)
IP Masquerena10 votesThat's why he has no negative win rates across the board?
Currently classified as S+ tier for mid on U.GG and here are his per rank stats (from U.GG, I'll give them in this order, win, pick, ban)
So please do tell me "where is he bad?"
Zed is the opposite of bad, he too strong.
Champions that require as "much skill as he does" shouldn't be so strong to have no negative win rates in any elo.
Just take the U.GG of Nidalee, Elise, Lee, Azir, Ryze, Akali, Irelia, Katarina, Riven, any actually mechanically intensive champ, even Yasuo*, and you'll see the same traits, they get better the higher you go, but in low elos, if you're not a main, it's a guaranteed loss for your team, even Riven who everyone around here cries to be OP doesn't get into positive win rate until Plat, and even then, she's only better in win rate than Zed between Diamond and Grandmaster, as in Challenger she has 4% lower win rate than him, and a lower play rate as well.
Zed needs nerf or a rework. His kit is designed to require a lot of skill to master, and sure, that's all fine and dandy, still needs a decent amount of skill to master, but he's also on Garen level of "pick up and play".
*Currently Yasuo has his win rate in a U curve, it being 53% in Iron, then going straight down to 47% until Diamond, with each rank the win rate going lower, and it only starts to go back up in Masters. That's why I said "even Yasuo", as for him, lower elos are a case "not knowing how to play against him", but as you climb, he's worse. Zed? Zed's just getting better and better.
1 516 735 35086 votesThat's why he has no negative win rates across the board?
Currently classified as S+ tier for mid on U.GG and here are his per rank stats (from U.GG, I'll give them in this order, win, pick, ban)
- Iron: 50.54%, 15.1%, 42.5%
- Bronze: 49.9%, 16.3%, 47.6%
- Silver: 50.23%, 14.5%, 51.8%
- Gold: 50.88%, 13.2%, 51.6%
- Platinum: 51.52%, 12.5%, 46.6%
- Diamond: 51.76%, 11.8%, 35.5%
- Master: 52.66%, 10.3%, 22.5%
- Grandmaster: 53.2%, 11.5%, 21.4%
- Challenger: 58.26%, 11.3%, 13.7%
So please do tell me "where is he bad?"
Zed is the opposite of bad, he too strong.
Champions that require as "much skill as he does" shouldn't be so strong to have no negative win rates in any elo.
Just take the U.GG of Nidalee, Elise, Lee, Azir, Ryze, Akali, Irelia, Katarina, Riven, any actually mechanically intensive champ, even Yasuo*, and you'll see the same traits, they get better the higher you go, but in low elos, if you're not a main, it's a guaranteed loss for your team, even Riven who everyone around here cries to be OP doesn't get into positive win rate until Plat, and even then, she's only better in win rate than Zed between Diamond and Grandmaster, as in Challenger she has 4% lower win rate than him, and a lower play rate as well.
Zed needs nerf or a rework. His kit is designed to require a lot of skill to master, and sure, that's all fine and dandy, still needs a decent amount of skill to master, but he's also on Garen level of "pick up and play".
*Currently Yasuo has his win rate in a U curve, it being 53% in Iron, then going straight down to 47% until Diamond, with each rank the win rate going lower, and it only starts to go back up in Masters. That's why I said "even Yasuo", as for him, lower elos are a case "not knowing how to play against him", but as you climb, he's worse. Zed? Zed's just getting better and better.
First, before anything else, winrates don't matter for this.
Winrates are NOT a definitive indicator of a champion's merit or power.
They only suggest questions, Ie why a champion is performing as such in it's demographic.
if your argument was to have any merit what so ever, we'd have to ignore how ryze, in his strongest state had a 39% winrate and how pre juggernaut rework garen had a 54 % winrate (Despite being garbage in high tiers and worse than a troll pick in competitive)
Zed is not strong right now for the same reason that champions like Fizz and Diana (who also have good numbers) aren't strong.
Now, this isn't going to be important at your level or in your match made games, and you're a very long way off from it becoming important but when you play LoL, almost any champion will have many chances to get value , Ie turn the game around , push for advantages or even close it out.
The difference between zed and champions like lissandra, TF and neeko is that when Zed gets and capitalizes on one of these chances, the payout is much lower.
Zed is also very reliant on making a large impact in every fight he participates in, he gets punished harshly for failure. Ie high risk, moderate reward but very little followthrough, this is important because if a would be target spaces properly, invests in counter itemization or has peel, zed shouldn't be able to do his job after 25 minutes.
If you want to say zed is good because he can split push, other champions can also split, usually almost as well or better, but contribute more to skirmishes and fights.
I've played many hundreds of zed games in every league that isn't challenger since his release and I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, his is servicable, and he has a lot of tools to "Push for something" and mess up someone who doesn't know how to play mid, or people who misstep, but he is objectively very weak, especially right now.
Not that that will matter in practice at lower tiers, and especially in games like yours.
Back to the winrates thing, that's like using result based thining to evaluate decision making in game.
You can walk into annie's flash tibbers range, during her lethal, when she has mana, cooldowns and no incentive not to kill you, then proceed to kill her and her entire team because she just didn't do it. It doesn't mean you made the right decision.
It would be more reasonable to consider winrates as you did IF there weren't tens of thousands of people who had better insights and / or more experiance.
League isn't magic, there are fixed values for every number and prospect in the game. We can study and discuss it in a much more empirical way.
My apologies if I just told you something akin to "the easter bunny doesn't exist".
CrazyMonkeyCZ6 votesWhy do I feel like you live in the world where only challanger matters? I like your comments, they are...different, but your suggestions are highly questionable and your view of game is probably only about good players, understandable, but undoable in order to maintain game alive.
Also I don't like how you skip the part of winrate X games played, that would show us how truly op Ryze really was.
IP Masquerena3 votesYou're missing 2 simple facts, so let me ask you these two questions, answer only with Yes or No to each, and provide arguments where asked, maybe you'll see the bigger picture
Is Zed a mechanically intense champion?
If yes, at how big his play rate is, should his win rate be around 47-48%?
Every single other mechanically intense champion has a negative winrate up to around Plat and Diamond, every single except Zed and Yasuo, but Yasuo has a U curve for win rate, being high in the lowest elos then going to 47% at Diamond. Zed does not have a negative win rate.
Why does that matter? Because lower elos provide the visuals for the entry point for each champion. Mechanically intense champs should never have positive win rates there unless it's a U curve like Yasuo, so Zed sitting at 50%+ for how much skill he should require shows there's a problem with him that goes beyond the "people don't know to play against", as such cases create a U curve.
Win rate alone means jack unless taken along other factors, and currently ALL FACTORS show Zed isn't in a week state, he's in a strong state. Skill required, huge play rate, huge ban rate, all should create a negative win rate in a few elos, yet that negative win rate doesn't exist, so I ask you to argument why? If he's so weak you make him be, why is he the only mechanically intense champ with no negative win rates?
1 516 735 35085 votesYou're missing 2 simple facts, so let me ask you these two questions, answer only with Yes or No to each, and provide arguments where asked, maybe you'll see the bigger picture
Is Zed a mechanically intense champion?
If yes, at how big his play rate is, should his win rate be around 47-48%?
Every single other mechanically intense champion has a negative winrate up to around Plat and Diamond, every single except Zed and Yasuo, but Yasuo has a U curve for win rate, being high in the lowest elos then going to 47% at Diamond. Zed does not have a negative win rate.
Why does that matter? Because lower elos provide the visuals for the entry point for each champion. Mechanically intense champs should never have positive win rates there unless it's a U curve like Yasuo, so Zed sitting at 50%+ for how much skill he should require shows there's a problem with him that goes beyond the "people don't know to play against", as such cases create a U curve.
Win rate alone means jack unless taken along other factors, and currently ALL FACTORS show Zed isn't in a week state, he's in a strong state. Skill required, huge play rate, huge ban rate, all should create a negative win rate in a few elos, yet that negative win rate doesn't exist, so I ask you to argument why? If he's so weak you make him be, why is he the only mechanically intense champ with no negative win rates?
No, that isn't how winrates work. Mechanically intensive champions often have positive winrates, even in bronze, silver and gold. Riven and cass being frequent offenders.
Even so, Riven and cass have, historically, been bad picks even in competitive play.
Winrates aren't definitive to a champion's power, they are indicator's of their performance, when games go as they did in the sample size.
Back in the day, people used to pick teemo to counter tryndamere for example and teemo had a 56% winrate against trynda top, at the same time, trynda was a counter pick to teemo and had kill pressure from level 2, if the trynda had good input buffering and knew how to force a low hp fight.
People also used to think Sivir countered lucian, and the super mechanically demanding sivir, with all of her endless kiting had a 57% winrate against lucian in the laning phase, the idea was to use her spell shield to neuter his combo and it took almost 10 days for most players to figure out lucian can bully her if he trades a second time when spell shield was on cooldown.
Sorry to smite your "Simple facts" but there are more variables in league than you're giving it credit and you're not a statistician.
I am. Get a degree yourself and familiarize yourself with league and the conventional knowledge of league players, until then, it's too early for you to try to be as objective as you fancy yourself.
Now that that's out of the way, Zed isn't the only champ that has phases like this with positive winrates and overperformance. Riven gets them a lot because players liked to stand flat footed and let her weave her full combo, with every auto attack between them, instead of forcing her to use some of her damage (Q casts, E (it's an auto attack reset) and W at range (So she has to walk before autoing) and lowering her lethal, (the hp value she can kill you from).
Fizz, Akali and Talon too, who have a high degree of target access, or Ornn, who has a huge lethal IF you misplay the lane really badly and give him the types of trades you shouldn't.
And infamously, illaoi where low level players want to handshake fights in her ultimate instead of kiting it out or re engaging.
There are many champions who, in practice, have no obligatory kill pressure, offer little to the team, can't force the fights they need do, can't even lane against "attempted" correct play but are rescued by an opponents mistakes.
And very often, these types of issues, that let these champions thrive when certain scenarios show up, are hard to identify, but quick fixes if you either discover the method yourself, or are shown by someone else.
These are the types of issues low end solo queue players, especially under d2 50 lp or so, should really be fending for themselves on.
In starcraft 2 HotS zerg were massively overtuned but terran had an 81% winrate against them, for more than 10 months before zergs figured out what they were doing wrong. No balance changes were needed for that statistic to reverse.
Meta chess openings from the 17th, 18th and 19th century are now known , even by low level players to lose by force.
Meta boxing from the early 1920s - 1970s now gets you thrashed in the lowest brackets of every federation.
And a million other nails in your coffin.
IP Masquerena2 votesCan I have what you're smoking?
Zed was in positive win rate all over the place ever since they removed the bonus AD from his ult and buffed everything else he has, even the next patch nerfs weren't enough to bring him down.
Also, even when Riven was the OP champ she was before her E nerfs, she still didn't had a positive win rate in lower elos.
Akali....which one? Pre rework or post rework? Pre rework still had bad winrates in a bunch of elos, but post rework one never had positive winrates except for a couple patches soon after her release in Challenger.
So yea, you need to chill out with those "cigars", they aren't good for your health.
1 516 735 35084 votesCan I have what you're smoking?
Zed was in positive win rate all over the place ever since they removed the bonus AD from his ult and buffed everything else he has, even the next patch nerfs weren't enough to bring him down.
Also, even when Riven was the OP champ she was before her E nerfs, she still didn't had a positive win rate in lower elos.
Akali....which one? Pre rework or post rework? Pre rework still had bad winrates in a bunch of elos, but post rework one never had positive winrates except for a couple patches soon after her release in Challenger.
So yea, you need to chill out with those "cigars", they aren't good for your health.
I don't smoke and you're not going to discredit any of the information I presented to you by slinging insults so get over that.
Like we already established, Winrates don't mean what you think they do.
A champion can be very strong with a 40% winrate and very weak with a 60% winrate.
And no, Riven had recently had a 54% winrate in silver, and both akalis have had spots of positive winrates, at one point old akali was even 56% in bronze and silver while at the same time 53% in gold.
If you want to try to make a case for zed being so strong, you'd have to be empirical and objective, rather than misusing statistics.
IP Masquerena2 votesYou're just spewing lies and anyone who even cares for a second to look at stats would see you're lying.
I did check, even before her nerfs in 9.10, Riven had a 46% in Iron and only got to 50% in Gold.
New Akali NEVER HAD A GOOD WINRATE ANYWHERE BELLOW GRANDMASTERS. Old Akali sure, she had a few moments in Season 3 was it? And got her ass nerfed.
If you want to try to make a case for zed being so weak, you'd have to empirical and objective, rather than spouting lies.
1 516 735 35084 votesYou're just spewing lies and anyone who even cares for a second to look at stats would see you're lying.
I did check, even before her nerfs in 9.10, Riven had a 46% in Iron and only got to 50% in Gold.
New Akali NEVER HAD A GOOD WINRATE ANYWHERE BELLOW GRANDMASTERS. Old Akali sure, she had a few moments in Season 3 was it? And got her ass nerfed.
If you want to try to make a case for zed being so weak, you'd have to empirical and objective, rather than spouting lies.
In other words you can't argue against anything I said so you try to use adhoms instead.
You didn't play very long if you don't remember the tank akali meta and how it plagued silver and bronze.
Not to mention, new akali had periodically done well in lower tiers.
Not to mention, we already established that win rates don't mean what you thought they did, and any salaried pro, professional coach and most tiers who aren't hardstuck in the diamond mines or below could tell you that.
The case for zed being weak has already been made that's why the aforementioned high tier players, coaches, analysts and most anyone who isn't stuck below master tier disagrees with you and why he isn't really contended in high tiers or in competitive.
If you want to go against the grain and advocate something new, the onus to prove something is on you.
Teaching you what zed's problems, what the counter play is and how to get more value, to prove he is a bad pick is not only beyond the scope of a simple forum post, but way more advanced than anything you need to worry about at this point in your LoL journey.
CrazyMonkeyCZ1 votesCan't wait for you to hit lvl30 and get that master tier yourself, it will be easy to beat dia miners for you.
The case for zed being weak has already been made that's why the aforementioned high tier players, coaches, analysts and most anyone who isn't stuck below master tier disagrees with you and why he isn't really contended in high tiers or in competitive.
Some sources?
1 516 735 35083 votesCan't wait for you to hit lvl30 and get that master tier yourself, it will be easy to beat dia miners for you.
Some sources?
Master tier won't even slow me down either.
High tier drafts, competitive, the coaching staff of every pro team, DopA's support team, Cute Mau, ls, Jayne, Adrian Smeb, Xiao lao ban and myself.
IP Masquerena2 votesAnd you are?
Basically a nobody.
I can't find anything related to DopA saying Zed is bad, so that guy's out of the equation.
All I find from Cute Mau is about Annie, nothing Zed related.
I watch a lot of LS and he doesn't talk about Zed.
Jayne is a Zed main, so of course it's gonna say he's weak.
I can't find anything about Adrian Smeb, and the Smeb I'm find is named Song Kyung-Ho. So unless you ment Adrian Riven by Adrian and Smeb being Song, then I still can't find jack about them talking regarding Zed.
Same for Xiao lao ban, can't find them saying anything about Zed.
So you need to provide actual sources, otherwise, as proven with your "Riven had a winrate" she never had, you're just a liar.
1 516 735 35083 votesAnd you are?
Basically a nobody.
I can't find anything related to DopA saying Zed is bad, so that guy's out of the equation.
All I find from Cute Mau is about Annie, nothing Zed related.
I watch a lot of LS and he doesn't talk about Zed.
Jayne is a Zed main, so of course it's gonna say he's weak.
I can't find anything about Adrian Smeb, and the Smeb I'm find is named Song Kyung-Ho. So unless you ment Adrian Riven by Adrian and Smeb being Song, then I still can't find jack about them talking regarding Zed.
Same for Xiao lao ban, can't find them saying anything about Zed.
So you need to provide actual sources, otherwise, as proven with your "Riven had a winrate" she never had, you're just a liar.
I am a stranger. You have no clue whether I am a nobody or not.
You haven't spoken to him recently or watched him talk about it on stream then either, DopA isn't out, he said now is not good for Zed because other champions have a better payout.
LS talked about Zed being on the cusp of being viable and he talked about Zed being undesirable because he can't get onto adcs in this meta and again 3 patches ago.
I liked your point with Jayne, that's like Hashinshin saying jax or aatrox isn't weak.
Cute Mau talks about Zed, and how he is comfortable playing annie into zeds despite zed being a large counter matchup for annie because annie is more useful. He also says that zed right now, struggles because seekers armguard and ninja tabi are overtuned.
Adrian thinks Zed takes a lot to make useful right now and the same effort is better spent elsewhere, if he heard LS talk about zed he would probably be even less optimistic.
Smeb thinks zed is trash right now.
Xiao Lao Ban thinks zed is almost unpickable since riot gave a delay on the reactivation of zed's r.
Sorry, but you don't get to fill in the blanks just because you are unfamiliar.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Yikes!
IP Masquerena3 votesIf they talked about it on stream, bring the proof, go grab a link, tell us the time and we'll go watch it.
LS only talks about pro play, he stated that a bunch of times on his Patch Notes Rundown vids, and I know, I watch each one of them.
And yes, you are a nobody that think's he's special. If you are so high and mighty, show who you really.
IP Masquerena3 votesThe only thing needed to prove you're a liar are stats that can be easily searched by anyone.
You said Riven recently had a 54% win rate in Silver? Ok, let's look at the stats between patches 9.1 and 9.13, her win rate in Silver.
9.1 - 47.98% 9.2 - 48.30% 9.3 - 48.19% 9.4 - 50.62% 9.5 - 49.95% 9.6 - 49.87% 9. 7 - 50.30% 9.8 - 49.47% 9.9 - 49.1% 9.10 - 47.27% 9.11 - 47.32% 9.12 - 48.14% 9.13 - 48.11%
So where's that 54% win rate you talked about? It's nowhere recent. 9.4 is when the new Conqueror was added, which is why until she got nerfed she was staying in a close to positive win rate, even breaking it twice, but even then, it's nowhere close to 54%.
Also, I don't need to prove anything. I said Zed is strong, I brought up his stats, compared to other champ's stats who are of similar difficulty as he is supposed to be, and it shows he's strong. I brought up my case, yet you failed to dismiss anything because all you spew are lies and your own personal opinions.
You are the one saying Zed is weak and failing to bring any proof other than "I told you win rate doesn't mean what you think it does" which is without any proof as well, just your opinion. (your comment was totally Iron tier. 60% win rate champ weak? SUUUUUUUUUUURE, name one if you can. A 40% can be strong when mastered, yes, but having 40% shows it's not easy to master, so those who master it should be good, but at 60%, there's no way that champ is weak, but if you can, prove it, name one).
Bring any proof, maybe we can talk, until then, I'm done with liars like you.
1 516 735 35084 votesThe only thing needed to prove you're a liar are stats that can be easily searched by anyone.
You said Riven recently had a 54% win rate in Silver? Ok, let's look at the stats between patches 9.1 and 9.13, her win rate in Silver.
9.1 - 47.98% 9.2 - 48.30% 9.3 - 48.19% 9.4 - 50.62% 9.5 - 49.95% 9.6 - 49.87% 9. 7 - 50.30% 9.8 - 49.47% 9.9 - 49.1% 9.10 - 47.27% 9.11 - 47.32% 9.12 - 48.14% 9.13 - 48.11%
So where's that 54% win rate you talked about? It's nowhere recent. 9.4 is when the new Conqueror was added, which is why until she got nerfed she was staying in a close to positive win rate, even breaking it twice, but even then, it's nowhere close to 54%.
Also, I don't need to prove anything. I said Zed is strong, I brought up his stats, compared to other champ's stats who are of similar difficulty as he is supposed to be, and it shows he's strong. I brought up my case, yet you failed to dismiss anything because all you spew are lies and your own personal opinions.
You are the one saying Zed is weak and failing to bring any proof other than "I told you win rate doesn't mean what you think it does" which is without any proof as well, just your opinion. (your comment was totally Iron tier. 60% win rate champ weak? SUUUUUUUUUUURE, name one if you can. A 40% can be strong when mastered, yes, but having 40% shows it's not easy to master, so those who master it should be good, but at 60%, there's no way that champ is weak, but if you can, prove it, name one).
Bring any proof, maybe we can talk, until then, I'm done with liars like you.
You didn't bring up zed's stats, you brought up his winrates. and that is not important for diagnosing the power of a champion. It's something that players who don't play the game, understand it's elements and how champions interact rely on to make assumptions. It's a nice starting point but if you're going to try to debate a better player, a coach or an analyst it's not gonna hold up in an academic conversation.
You need to prove that zed isn't weak. You have to prove competitive play wrong, you have to prove high tier solo queue wrong, you have to prove DopA wrong, smeb, cutemau, xiao lao ban wrong, you have to prove jayne wrong, you have to prove adrian wrong, you have to prove myself wrong, and even my lowly, master / grandmaster fluctuating soraka main waifu who is nowhere near the aforementioned names but could tell you why Zed is so underwhelming right now, wrong.
And no, saying we're all liars isn't going to change the fact that you've got nothing and are desperately resorting to adhoms.
Have fun struggling with zed when I lane against the aforementioned zed confidently and perform well in all of my games on the rift.
And it's a pity you don't play NA and can't reach my mmr because I like playing zed sometimes and would be happy to make you play in black and white with an underpowered champion :)
1 516 735 35083 votes[{quoted}](name=1 516 735 3508,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj07TnzW,comment-id=00140000000000010000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-08T16:50:11.093+0000)
You didn't bring up zed's stats, you brought up his winrates. and that is not important for diagnosing the power of a champion. It's something that players who don't play the game, understand it's elements and how champions interact rely on to make assumptions. It's a nice starting point but if you're going to try to debate a better player, a coach or an analyst it's not gonna hold up in an academic conversation.
You need to prove that zed isn't weak. You have to prove competitive play wrong, you have to prove high tier solo queue wrong, you have to prove DopA wrong, smeb, cutemau, xiao lao ban wrong, you have to prove jayne wrong, you have to prove adrian wrong, you have to prove myself wrong, and even my lowly, master / grandmaster fluctuating soraka main waifu who is nowhere near the aforementioned names but could tell you why Zed is so underwhelming right now, wrong.
And no, saying we're all liars isn't going to change the fact that you've got nothing and are desperately resorting to adhoms.
Have fun struggling with zed when I lane against the aforementioned zed confidently and perform well in all of my games on the rift.
And it's a pity you don't play NA and can't reach my mmr because I like playing zed sometimes and would be happy to make you play in black and white with an underpowered champion :)
Oh, so now you don't only want to know the sources but you need to be spoonfed too?
I don't believe you. You said you tried finding information on cute mau and xiao lao ban. Have fun finding where and when these things were said. Judging by your social skills, i'm sure you have all the time in the world.
CrazyMonkeyCZ1 votesAcademic lvl of conversation right here mr. Doctor.
If you make some claim like "XY said ABCD", you need to prove it. We did this in high school in simple essayes, not sure what kind of medical one you attended
Exin01 votes[{quoted}](name=1 516 735 3508,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj07TnzW,comment-id=00140000000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-08T13:46:41.295+0000)
No, that isn't how winrates work. Mechanically intensive champions often have positive winrates, even in bronze, silver and gold. Riven and cass being frequent offenders.
Even so, Riven and cass have, historically, been bad picks even in competitive play.
You will be right if they also didnt have massive playerbase in comparison to other champions which suggest they are not hard to pick up and slam maybe there are some super secret moves to master but overall they are not mechanically intensive as they mains like to tell us
1 516 735 35081 votesYou will be right if they also didnt have massive playerbase in comparison to other champions which suggest they are not hard to pick up and slam maybe there are some super secret moves to master but overall they are not mechanically intensive as they mains like to tell us
Yes, winrates in different brackets suggest things like that as well.
Azir, Ryze and Cass get hinted at with the difficulty to get a certain threshold of value, and this is also reflected in the winrates of mains vs new azir, ryzes and cass players respectively.
You also have champions, who are notoriously difficult to optimize, like gangplank with his sensitive positioning, decision making and phantom barrel combos but when Gangplank is In, he does well in bronze, silver, dips between gold, plat and diamond and picks up again on the high end of challenger.
And his performance in lower tiers has historically been accredited to a global nunu ult.
Lots of discussions like that come from winrates, but the idea that a champion is strong or weak based on their winrate and their winrate alone is a cop-out that people use to virtue signal, complain and or pose.
Lots of people admire the depth of league and league theory but some people just don't have the experience, didn't put the work in and sometimes don't even have the intelligence to really rip into it or speak for anything. People who aren't too green have already learned to spot who and where they are.
Exin01 votes[{quoted}](name=1 516 735 3508,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj07TnzW,comment-id=0014000000000001000000010000,timestamp=2019-07-10T15:47:47.334+0000)
Yes, winrates in different brackets suggest things like that as well.
Azir, Ryze and Cass get hinted at with the difficulty to get a certain threshold of value, and this is also reflected in the winrates of mains vs new azir, ryzes and cass players respectively.
You also have champions, who are notoriously difficult to optimize, like gangplank with his sensitive positioning, decision making and phantom barrel combos but when Gangplank is In, he does well in bronze, silver, dips between gold, plat and diamond and picks up again on the high end of challenger.
And his performance in lower tiers has historically been accredited to a global nunu ult.
Lots of discussions like that come from winrates, but the idea that a champion is strong or weak based on their winrate and their winrate alone is a cop-out that people use to virtue signal, complain and or pose.
Lots of people admire the depth of league and league theory but some people just don't have the experience, didn't put the work in and sometimes don't even have the intelligence to really rip into it or speak for anything. People who aren't too green have already learned to spot who and where they are.
GP at least need setup one barrel for combo and enemy who is dumb enough no respect danger zone GP canot conjure three barels and detonate them in fracture of second. When someone say "mechanicaly intesive" i immediately see in my head picture of hand furiuosly smashing keyboard and people like present it as "skill". Ryze is most skill heavy due to his combos but riven with "spam q fast as possible" not, its just quick time event, same engage, same combination, same execution - just one gameplay pattern to learn for every situation. Also all skill expresion is drowned in so insane damage that you dont even need execute full combo to instagib and it is still not enough for riot, where it it end? when zed will be kiling just by ult without need to add any damage? Also i dont fully understand wieght of WR, yeah insane numbers are without question but overall how can be WR used for determinig champion power when it is used like number in vacum while you are getting it in team game with milion variables. If i use extreme scenario that champion x is always in losing team (for example always 2 afk) he will be with 0 winrate but this number didnt say anything about how strong or weak he is in reality.
1 516 735 35081 votesGP at least need setup one barrel for combo and enemy who is dumb enough no respect danger zone GP canot conjure three barels and detonate them in fracture of second. When someone say "mechanicaly intesive" i immediately see in my head picture of hand furiuosly smashing keyboard and people like present it as "skill". Ryze is most skill heavy due to his combos but riven with "spam q fast as possible" not, its just quick time event, same engage, same combination, same execution - just one gameplay pattern to learn for every situation. Also all skill expresion is drowned in so insane damage that you dont even need execute full combo to instagib and it is still not enough for riot, where it it end? when zed will be kiling just by ult without need to add any damage? Also i dont fully understand wieght of WR, yeah insane numbers are without question but overall how can be WR used for determinig champion power when it is used like number in vacum while you are getting it in team game with milion variables. If i use extreme scenario that champion x is always in losing team (for example always 2 afk) he will be with 0 winrate but this number didnt say anything about how strong or weak he is in reality.
Gangplank barrels are undodgable within 900 range when done properly.
Unless you already forgot, I am the one that said there are many variables.
I am not considering anything in a vacuum, you are.
That's part of why we can't just make up anything we want a winrate to mean
Exin04 votesThat's why he has no negative win rates across the board?
Currently classified as S+ tier for mid on U.GG and here are his per rank stats (from U.GG, I'll give them in this order, win, pick, ban)
- Iron: 50.54%, 15.1%, 42.5%
- Bronze: 49.9%, 16.3%, 47.6%
- Silver: 50.23%, 14.5%, 51.8%
- Gold: 50.88%, 13.2%, 51.6%
- Platinum: 51.52%, 12.5%, 46.6%
- Diamond: 51.76%, 11.8%, 35.5%
- Master: 52.66%, 10.3%, 22.5%
- Grandmaster: 53.2%, 11.5%, 21.4%
- Challenger: 58.26%, 11.3%, 13.7%
So please do tell me "where is he bad?"
Zed is the opposite of bad, he too strong.
Champions that require as "much skill as he does" shouldn't be so strong to have no negative win rates in any elo.
Just take the U.GG of Nidalee, Elise, Lee, Azir, Ryze, Akali, Irelia, Katarina, Riven, any actually mechanically intensive champ, even Yasuo*, and you'll see the same traits, they get better the higher you go, but in low elos, if you're not a main, it's a guaranteed loss for your team, even Riven who everyone around here cries to be OP doesn't get into positive win rate until Plat, and even then, she's only better in win rate than Zed between Diamond and Grandmaster, as in Challenger she has 4% lower win rate than him, and a lower play rate as well.
Zed needs nerf or a rework. His kit is designed to require a lot of skill to master, and sure, that's all fine and dandy, still needs a decent amount of skill to master, but he's also on Garen level of "pick up and play".
*Currently Yasuo has his win rate in a U curve, it being 53% in Iron, then going straight down to 47% until Diamond, with each rank the win rate going lower, and it only starts to go back up in Masters. That's why I said "even Yasuo", as for him, lower elos are a case "not knowing how to play against him", but as you climb, he's worse. Zed? Zed's just getting better and better.
Its futile, your numbers show he is op yet his defenders tell you that seekers neuter him, he is at his weekest point and is garbage in coordinated games while his numbers are rising with elo :D
IP Masquerena5 votesZed mains: miss every Q, still get the kill with R E AA Ignite : CTRL + 6 ez mid miss every Q, fail to get the kill with R E AA Ignite as the target gets away with 20 hp, which he wouldn't if they hit a Q : "THE FUCK IS THAT CHAMP? YOU CHEATING!!"
If I'd have 10 RP for each Zed I've seen rage that he didn't got a kill after missing all Q in an ult combo, I'd have enough to get myself both Coven Camille and Lissandra.
Sergeant HbA1c1 votesThis hits the nail on the head. He hasn't been tweaked to fit Runes Reforged. Before Runes Reforged, Zed required a great deal of skill. His builds were pretty cookie-cutter, but the game demanded that you needed to play him better than your opponent, or play like an actual assassin (before they became extremely mobile burst mages).
Compare that to now. His builds are still cookie-cutter, but they afford him too much initiative.
Émilia4 votesActually the fact he can proc electrocute with 2 spells is the problem (technically, two shurikens still count as 1spell). He deals 1/2 of your lifebar at level 3 with too much safety (W E Q) since he don't need to stick you.
14daysuspensionk3 votesHe's always hiding in the shadows so Rito can never reach him to get him nerfed.
JeaneGreene3 votesZed imo is in a problematic spot design wise. Unlike Talon, Fizz and a host of other assassins that go mid, I can’t poke him out as he has really high ranged damage. Always my ban.
Total Violation1 votesDid you try to not get in range of him? Or stay with a tanky teammate who can peel? Or build armor?
Also, "he arguably has the most mobility out of any assassin"
would like to have a word with you.
Xavanic4 votes[{quoted}](name=Total Violation,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gj07TnzW,comment-id=0015,timestamp=2019-07-08T00:26:09.737+0000)
Did you try to not get in range of him? Or stay with a tanky teammate who can peel? Or build armor?
Also, "he arguably has the most mobility out of any assassin"
i was ahead of him, as an assassin, my full combo didn't kill him, but his Q E AA combo was enough to burst me