"we hope some of the biggest barriers to finding the fun in league will be fixed"

Wukong Airlines·Apr 26, 2018·44 votes·20,164 views

Yeah, no. This is a personal message from me to any Rioter out there who might read this.

You want me to have fun? I will never have fun as long as my is incompetent and passive-less, and is still bugged and feel less reliable and/or slow compared to other assassins.

I started playing this game because of those 2 champs, and damn I'm so unlucky to have them both in the gutter and out of meta for too long.

You sure you have your priorities, like reworking every season or two. But why don't we put some effort into working on Wukong?

Just because nobody/less people complain-post about them doesn't mean they should receive less attention.

94 Comments

RiotRiot MapleNectarApr 26, 201856 votes

One of our designers was looking at a few Talon bugs last week in some time between tasks. Some were proving pretty tricky - I'll track down where we landed on those last week. I know 1 fix for sure is going into this patch (his Q range will no longer be bugged), but there was also some weird behavioral bugs when flipping over walls he was investigating.

Wukong ended up getting put on the backburner for a short amount of time while we re-evaluated the function/success of mini updates/roster scope updates. We'd been exploring him around the same time as the Xin Zhao rework, and there were a few lessons from that release that we wanted to learn from and apply to some of the champions like Wukong that share some similar thematic space and gameplay desire for players (we've seen that Wukong has a similar fantasy that Xin Zhao players and a few others share). For the time being we have him on one of our short lists for the champion team designer to pick up when they're looking for an additional smaller scope project to take on while waiting on iterations for their main project. I can't promise any timelines as usual, but there's only 11 champions on that short list, so I hope that information is better than no thing. Sorry we've been so silent on Wukong, there just hasn't been much to share recently that would feel particularly great, but I realize silence doesn't feel super splendid either. FWIW I think there has to be a better passive for him, and I'd be really interested if we could make him less bound to lethality in order to be viable in a game. Right now if you can't delete their squishies quickly, you don't bring much to a team comp that you couldn't get elsewhere. (Wukong has been one of my higher played champions in seasons past).

GigglesOApr 26, 201816 votes

Mordekaiser

Bugs, updates? I've never seen any... Especially not ones that make the game miserable to play.

I guess misery does love company.

#######SarcasmFontNotFound

MegaHuffApr 26, 20183 votes

Made me smile with that clever line. +1

L Psy KongrooApr 26, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gcm628fE,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-04-26T17:04:05.610+0000)

One of our designers was looking at a few Talon bugs last week in some time between tasks. Some were proving pretty tricky - I'll track down where we landed on those last week. I know 1 fix for sure is going into this patch (his Q range will no longer be bugged), but there was also some weird behavioral bugs when flipping over walls he was investigating.

Wukong ended up getting put on the backburner for a short amount of time while we re-evaluated the function/success of mini updates/roster scope updates. We'd been exploring him around the same time as the Xin Zhao rework, and there were a few lessons from that release that we wanted to learn from and apply to some of the champions like Wukong that share some similar thematic space and gameplay desire for players (we've seen that Wukong has a similar fantasy that Xin Zhao players and a few others share). For the time being we have him on one of our short lists for the champion team designer to pick up when they're looking for an additional smaller scope project to take on while waiting on iterations for their main project. I can't promise any timelines as usual, but there's only 11 champions on that short list, so I hope that information is better than no thing. Sorry we've been so silent on Wukong, there just hasn't been much to share recently that would feel particularly great, but I realize silence doesn't feel super splendid either. FWIW I think there has to be a better passive for him, and I'd be really interested if we could make him less bound to lethality in order to be viable in a game. Right now if you can't delete their squishies quickly, you don't bring much to a team comp that you couldn't get elsewhere. (Wukong has been one of my higher played champions in seasons past).

Is there any possibility you could look into the Wukong bug where if you use W too soon after casting another ability you don't actually turn invisible? It's fairly easy to reproduce, just E at something and W immediately after you arrive.

The Yetii RiderApr 26, 20184 votes

" Right now if you can't delete their squishies quickly, you don't bring much to a team comp that you couldn't get elsewhere."

That is all divers have ever done. It's almost like they needed their own class roster update to differentiate themselves from other classes, ESPECIALLY after the assassin update turned assassins into basically second-rate divers.

What else SHOULD a diver bring to the table? A diver's role is to kill priority targets, is it not?

RiotRiot MapleNectarApr 26, 201819 votes

To an extent yes - a diver is intended to be able to get onto the back line and present a very serious threat, but currently it feels like unless WK is able to delete someone with E+Q+AA with Duskblade (and ult when he has it), the amount of tools he has left or opportunity for compelling decision making is super low. It leads to Wukong having some very high highs (when I win, I win really hard), but also some really low lows (if I lose early, it's near impossible to claw back into the game). I don't think we should homogenize his kit so that he just has a flat power curve, since variance in performance between games is important, but do think that it would be great to let him rely on more than just E+Q+AA, or E+Q+R. He's pretty binary in that way, but his kit doesn't let him do much else.

The Yetii RiderApr 26, 20183 votes

Even if you're not killing people, though, you're still knocking up the entire enemy team with R. I just don't see how he's more binary than a lot of other divers.

Chromatic EagleApr 26, 20183 votes

Don't other divers have cc on something besides ult?

The Yetii RiderApr 26, 20181 votes

Yes, but other divers don't have Stealth.

Also, there are many assassins who have CC on something other than ult. Rengar Ekko Evelynn Leblanc Shaco

ZerenzaApr 27, 20181 votes

They sacrifice quite a bit for that CC though, in most cases, the exception being Rengar. Evelynn needs her Charm to kill somebody, especially early game where her damage isn't enough on it's own and won't get them to the R threshold. Leblance needs it a little less but if she doesn't land it there's a high probability they'll get away or her R+Q/R+W won't be enough to finish them off since she probably used W to get to them in the first place. Shaco is kind of outdated and he's played more Bruiser ish now than anything else, his box's have to be placed, they have an Arming timer and such so, yeah. Ekko is the only one who doesn't really sacrifice much but his is pretty difficult to land.

Most assassins with CC sacrifice, safety, kill potential or mobility when they have CC, which is a fair trade and usually ends up increasing their skill cap. The only exception being, rengar and Nocturn to a degree but his has a delay like all the other's.

TS MediaApr 27, 20181 votes

What do you mean rengar doesn't sacrifice for that CC? He sacrifices damage, sustain or a cleanse to use his CC. And it's only a root. It doesn't prevent you from attacking back under most cases, anyways.

MasterPhucApr 27, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Maple Nectar,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gcm628fE,comment-id=000200030001,timestamp=2018-04-26T20:44:20.415+0000)

To an extent yes - a diver is intended to be able to get onto the back line and present a very serious threat, but currently it feels like unless WK is able to delete someone with E+Q+AA with Duskblade (and ult when he has it), the amount of tools he has left or opportunity for compelling decision making is super low. It leads to Wukong having some very high highs (when I win, I win really hard), but also some really low lows (if I lose early, it's near impossible to claw back into the game). I don't think we should homogenize his kit so that he just has a flat power curve, since variance in performance between games is important, but do think that it would be great to let him rely on more than just E+Q+AA, or E+Q+R. He's pretty binary in that way, but his kit doesn't let him do much else.

Hi Maple, thank you for taking the time to response to us Wukong mains here. I know you must get a lot of shit because of the limitations on how much you can say, but I hope you don't let it get to you! On the topic of Wukong though, I absolutely love playing him as a diver and I hope that he will still be able to after his rework. I really feel that you have a good understanding of Wukong when you pointed out how he feels with his high highs and low lows, but I think that's really due to his inability to safely farm and lack of sustain, which also really separates the good Wukong from bad. I've had to restrained myself a lot from going for farm and just soak in the exp and wait for the right moment to engage on them while under turret. Hopefully he will get some help in the department of sustain but still be a diver. Also it would be a great QOL buff for Wukong if other champs who hits his clone under turret would get turret aggro, which can be super feels bad for the Wukong player when you make a crucial dodge on someone's ability. This is also the same situation with minion aggro. Currently, minions also do not aggro an enemy who has hit Wukong's clone even though it's consider a champion. The current interaction seems kinda of inconsistent for me since he's counted as a champion for things like summoner abilities target, illaoi's ulti, darius's q, etc...

AptestApr 28, 20181 votes

i think we've seen in other threads. the sustain creep is generally a bad thing. I wish you wouldn't make the "X has sustain, Y must also have sustain to compete". There are other alternatives.

For instance jax is doing just fine with no sustain. and so does J4

MasterPhucMay 2, 20181 votes

{quoted}

i think we've seen in other threads. the sustain creep is generally a bad thing. I wish you wouldn't make the "X has sustain, Y must also have sustain to compete". There are other alternatives.

For instance jax is doing just fine with no sustain. and so does J4

But Jax has much better base stats, better scaling, plus has a much easier time csing with his Q to get away and his E to safely walk up to CS. J4 has multiple ways of safely farming. Yes there are ways for X champion to do well/compete without sustain, but they have compensation to make up for it. If Wukong walks up to CS it's easy harassing. If he tries to W he's still vulnerable to CC and AOE dmg. This along with one of the lowest base health regen makes laning phase so hard for him when you look at other bruisers who has both higher health regen than him and or range poke/sustain abilities (J4/Fiora/Ire/Darius/Camille/Etc...)

FrostQueensPlaneApr 26, 20185 votes

tl;dr yes you're right but we don't care lul or we'll look into it lul

RiotRiot MapleNectarApr 26, 201892 votes

This right here is a perfect example of the behavior that makes talking about anything a pain in the ass. If we're only going to be allowed to talk about things that are 100% going in the next patch lest we be called liars it's probably easier to just not talk.

Penta AceApr 26, 20185 votes

If it's any consolation, I love you and your name.

Tychusfindlay918Apr 26, 20182 votes

[deleted]

DoozkuApr 26, 201835 votes

If they don't participate in this forums the community will complain that Riot never talks with them. If they detail what they may do in the future people say that they don't care. If never reveal stuff until its already almost done people will say that Riot pushes through massive changes without the communities approval. How do you win?

Votable JesterApr 26, 201822 votes

So you don't want communication?

WiccanBKaplanApr 26, 201819 votes

Actually, people like you force them into the forums... "No comment from riot" "silence from rito" "why doesn't rito talk to us" "forums get no repsonse" etc... etc..

They should be able to respond freely without being ridiculed for finally saying something about how you make them feel; since you trash-holes take no time to voice how you feel. Fully deserve the down votes.

TonyTonyMordecaiApr 26, 201813 votes

For what it's worth, thanks for letting us know it's being looked at.

UltîmaApr 26, 20184 votes

Hey Nectar, don't pay attention to those trolls. Many of us enjoy your input about what's going on at the office, and enjoy engaging Rioters in discussions even if we're critical of certain changes.

AnataBakkaApr 26, 20182 votes

just look at the half full part of the glass, rather than the empty one, there're people who care that you write

Akali is SO HOTApr 26, 20189 votes

This has been one of your best seasons so far for communicating with the players. Don't let the people that have nothing to say, but be rude to you guys get in the way. You're doing just fine :D

drketchupApr 27, 20181 votes

FWIW for every dumb comment like his there’s 100 people like myself who just come in and read the Rioter comments and appreciate the info without commenting. So I hope this doesn’t discourage you guys from being open about stuff that’s not concrete yet.

Blue Moon WolfApr 27, 20181 votes

I apologize for that behavior. If it helps at all, I really appreciate when you guys give information on Wukong. He's not really a popular champ and feels that he's prone to being forgotten about, but its information like this that feels good to hear, even if its not really as much as we'd hope. Yea, Me and a lot of Wukong mains would LOVE to hear he is next up after Aatrox or will be getting started soon, it's still nice to know what you guys are looking to do with him when he does finally get his turn and to know he's still being looked at, even if you can't say any for sure date. And whats more this is likely the most valuable information we have gotten as of yet imo. Before we had no idea where he stood, but now we know what list he's on and how many other champs are on it. So thank you for this info. It is FAR better then nothing.

As for directions where to take him, I was wondering about the % Armor pen on his Q. No matter how people play him (Assassin or Diver), a % armor pen isn't really isn't something that is favored seeing as both of them have an ADC as the main target. would it be possible to change that to a flat amount?

Either way, I'm really looking forward to what happens with him in the future, I agree that XinZhao has a pretty similar fantasy as MonkeyKing and would love to see what changes that will bring, especially if they are like the changes Xin got that added new effects to his skins.

Packun FlowerApr 27, 20183 votes

I'm just gonna go ahead and say what needs to be said, but i'll say it more nicely then this guy and hope to shed some light on why he's probably upset.

Riot: "we hope some of the biggest barriers to finding the fun in league will be fixed"

Community: "Riot.. YOU are the biggest barrier to finding fun in league of legends right now."

It's time to seriously sit down with all your teams and rethink your approach to the game.

Stop catering to the needs of the few and start catering to the needs of the many, do not let the LC$ and the pro players dictate what is and isn't fun anymore. By doing this you have caused serious backlash towards the LC$ itself, causing a good portion of the community to hate the very idea of it.
Reorganize your balance team. This is wildly talked about but you cannot ignore the backlash this team has caused. Your balance team is totally and utterly out of control and they need to be taken into another room and spoken to. Something is going on with them that's causing them to tear this game apart, maybe they have some personal issues affecting their judgment? maybe they are under stress, but from them its been nothing but bad calls, community backlash towards them is at an all-time high, you need to reorganize your balance team if you have any hope of fixing the damage they have caused.
Reorganize your priorities. The one good thing you announced was making changes to botlane this season and we all agreed, but then you pulled a complete 180 and suddenly turned your attention towards mages and other things we didn't ask for you, you jumbled up your priorities and can't figure out why we are mad about it.
Have a talk with your skin team. The skin team does good work sometimes but with the recent community review of gun goddess misfortune and the fact that our feedback towards it was ignored outright, its very obvious your skin team is either burnt out or playing favourites. Skins help keep the game fresh and entertaining, though not as large to a degree as proper gameplay but they do help reignite interest in champions and players. the quality of skins has decreased dramatically over the season, so you should have a sit down with them and ask them whats going on as well.
Stop focusing on complex and overpower champion designs. We all know who's famous for this, CertainlyToxic, but he can have an entire thread dedicated to him and his champions another time. What you need to do right now is review what you're doing with future champions. You are making more and more champions that cater towards causing frustration rather than fun. whatever team decides what skills new champs get and how they work, tell them to go back and re-evaluate those skills, tell them to ask themselves "Is this skill something that would be fun to use? or something that would cause frustration?" you'd be surprised how many times the second one is picked I bet.
Finally, and this is the most important one of all. Stop ignoring feedback. you may say you do not do this but you do, the only feedback you take into consideration is from LC$ pro players, look at the upcoming mana changes? Do you see how negative the feedback towards them is? do you see how bad the backlash towards them is? yet i bet even as we speak you are still trying your hardest to drown out our feedback and force them out. If you don't want out feedback to begin with why even bother asking us.

I have seen a lot of Riot employees say that themselves or other employees don't b0ther communicating with the community because they often get backlash for their answers. Have you ever stopped to wonder why that is? it's not always because the community is trolling, its the reputation the company your representing has among us. If you want us to start treating you with respect you must start respecting us as well.

I really want league of legends to succeed but the path your taking it down now is destined to have it end in failure. Please dont let that happen.

Wukong AirlinesApr 26, 20182 votes

Thank you for informing me on what's going on behind the scenes.

I do prefer wukong having a similar update to xin's. But at the same time support giving him somewhat larger gameplay update and focus on bringing his original theme into the game.

Like: Allowing him to use his "nimbus" as means of mobility.

Allowing him to manipulate his staff and revolve most of his gameplay around it, turn it into a skill shot as well.

Turn his kit into a one of (assassin) or (fighter) rather than have it half of both

Allow him to become the real trickster the (novel) taught us about him, more decoys/stackable decoys.

It would be great when the time comes for Wukong to be reworked our ideas could be used and taken into consideration.

nm1010Apr 26, 20187 votes

there was also some weird behavioral bugs when flipping over walls he was investigating.

First things first, I am very grateful this is finally being looked into but I think there is some useful feedback to take away from this.

This bug has existed in documented form from a patch or two after the assassin update, that is nearly 2 years for it to be looked into. When the estimated fix time is well over a year for these types of things it feels really bad. I would say it was a one time thing, but I have had 2 champions left with really shitty bugs for extended periods of time (Orianna and Talon). For both of these champions bug reports were given multiple times, Orianna I remember at least 3 threads from me personally (the bug in question was when the ball would become invisible).

I felt like I was being ignored at first, but eventually I got a Rioter to respond... who told me it was a problem on my end (basically "graphical error, repair your client"). I informed them that this was a documented bug for quite a while at that point, after which I was ignored as was the bug for another 6 months or so. Fast forward to Talon again and I posted about this bug on gameplay ~8 months ago because of my lack of confidence in bug report. That thread was almost immediately removed by a moderator for being on the incorrect board.

After another poster had success posting a multiyear neglected bug on gameplay I decided to give it another go.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/YRvUI30o-now-that-ive-been-playing-talon-again

While no where near as successful as the Darius thread I managed to get some attention. Anyway the point is I wonder if Riot would've even made it to Talon this year if rules weren't broken to post a bug in gameplay so that he received support from the community.

beanyApr 26, 20182 votes

It's one of those things that will never fully get resolved, bugfixing is one of those areas where riot most likely doesn't allocate enough resources/manpower to, and what little they have focuses on the new content (and the new content gets a grace period of about a patch or two of bugfix attention before saying "fuck it, let's move on to the next content in the pipeline").

I say this as someone who has lobbied for years-old jayce bugs to be fixed, some successfully, some with riot outright stating they would never fix)

RiotRiot MapleNectarApr 26, 201814 votes

To be entirely honest, this is one of the things that we're not super great at. I wish we had the time to fix every bug in the game (or at least the major ones), but we run into a few reoccurring problems on that front:

Visibility - even if there are threads about important bugs we may not seen them
Repro Steps - even if there are reports, there aren't always clear methods for us to reproduce them so we can track down the issue
Time - as Beany mentioned, when looking at an allocation of value to time, delivering on new content almost always trumps taking time to fix bugs - especially when they can get really hairy really quick. We could hire more people to do this, or could allocate more time to bug fixing, but it would come at the cost of additional things being shipped - something that can be a bitter pill to swallow for a lot of people.

I've been trying to think of ways to at least make some progress here, let me know what you think of this as a tactic. Essentially, reception to the bug fixes from Quinn that were bundled into a patch 8.6 was really positive - though it also took a decent amount of time for the designer to round up all the bugs/QoL changes, make the fixes, get them tested etc. I was wondering if going onto each of the subreddits for all the champion mains and dropping something like a:

"Hey guys, as a community it would be great if you could build up and prioritize a list of bug fixes / quality of life improvements that you think would help make your champion feel better. I can't promise if/when we'll get to them, but if we're doing work on a champion, it would be far easier to just get to reference a list from the people that care about the champion the most as opposed to us guessing what fixes may actually help. If the community thinks something is important, and we know where to find it, it becomes way easier for us to actually commit to that work."

Something to that effect anyway.

AnataBakkaApr 26, 20183 votes

it also took a decent amount of time

That doesn't matter. I may have different ideas than other people but adding more bugs into game (with updates etc..) is far worse than fixing them (as you did with quinn)

I was wondering if going onto each of the subreddits

please do that, i'm already pretty much prepared with this list ps: i can make it shorter if asked

Spice POWAHApr 27, 20181 votes

Since Riot plans on having big patch/little patch cycles, have you considered having one of the little patches dedicated entirely to bugfixes/QoL changes with easy changes like numbers if need arises? I don't mean to come off sassy or anything, it's a genuine question.

Also, the subreddit thing seems like it'd be helpful. I remember something similar a few months or so ago asking for morde mains to compile a list of bugs, so I guess it'd be kinda like that but with smaller lists.

DeathBurstApr 27, 20182 votes

I don't frequent Reddit myself, but it seems like a safe bet that yes, this is a good tactic.

However, I'm really irked by your point 1. I totally understand point 2 and 3, and they are justification enough by themselves, but point 1 is... I don't know.

Like, is the "Report a Bug" sub-board actually ignored, as NM1010 implied? It's obvious no one has enough time to read the whole of Gameplay, but Report a Bug is far less spammed AND entirely dedicated to bugs. How can you lack visibility on that?

And while we're at it, are the Bug Reports submitted directly from the client a better way to do it? If just "making a thread" isn't enough, what can we do to ensure you have more of that elusive "visibility"?

Jerry SeinfeIdApr 27, 20181 votes

I can confirm it isn't. I've reported bugs with the skins tab twice now and I got a red answer every time.

DeathBurstApr 28, 20181 votes

Yeah, I saw your threads, via the Red Tracker. But then, why is Maple Nectar complaining about visibility? Katey is wonderful, but her job is clear, and I'm convinced she doesn't even look at gameplay bugs, so Katey replying to your threads isn't really reassuring for the case we're discussion here.

BernApr 27, 20181 votes

To be clear, are 2+3 why something like the current Diana q glitches aren't yet addressed even though they feel really bad -- too hard to figure out what's causing them, so too much time down the drain better spent elsewhere?

SkaiBladeApr 28, 20181 votes

I think a good point to start would be a real bug tracker system, and by that, I mean a system that has the following features:

One central page for all regions and languages, in English
A standardized entry form (the one accessible from the bug button in the client is fine)
A way to upload media documentation (screenshots, videos) to your platform instead of a third party service
A catalogue of all known bugs to search
Status tags like "new", "needs more info", "no bug / won't fix", "confirmed", "in progress", "fixed"
Type labels like "Typo", "Visual", "Audio", "Performance", "Skin", "Client", "Ingame", etc.
3rd person participation, e. g. editing issues by other community members (i. e. non-Rioters) to provide additional information such as steps to reproduce or a video of the bug, as a form of cooperative bug reporting where multiple people provide different parts of a detailed bug report
Ability to vote for and comment on bugs, mark them as duplicate, blocking, etc.

Currently, the site we get directed to from the client is probably the best input form for bugs. However there's three problems with it:

I can't check whether my issue has already been reported. While I can sometimes safely assume "yes", I can't check the quality of that report. Either way, whatever I do, it has negative consiquences: not reporting the bug means any additional information my report could have provided will never reach you, worst case is that the bug was actually unknown before. Reporting the bug means any duplicate information my report contains will require somebody to invest time without any additional information gained from it.
It can only hold links, so if I had a screenshot or a video, I'm dependent on the availability of free third party services to provide you with that media. But actually I might not WANT to upload videos for League of Legends bug documentation to my private YouTube channel of high quality cat videos.
Once I sent the report, it's "lost" like a letter thrown into a letter box. Neither can YOU ask for clarification because you can't get back to me, nor can I see what happens with my report. All I can do is repeatedly check for the patch notes or check if the bug is still there.

And finally, for your consideration; many companies have had success by creating a dedicated schedule for bug fixing. During the development of Windows 10, Microsoft introduced "Bug bashing days", a day dedicated to fixing bugs, not developing any new content, where developers and dedicated members of the Windows Insider community were interactively working together to fix some of the most annoying bugs.

Fixing bugs in a game is like doing dishes at home. There's most likely always something more fun to do, but it's a necessity to keep everything going. Somehow, you manage to squeeze doing the dishes in your schedule. And Riot must somehow make it work to squeeze bug fixing into their content development schedule.

WarWorkApr 27, 20181 votes

I happen to lov Wukong so RIot, thak you so much. This post provides clarity and hope and i'm grateful and apprecite this. Plz continue the good work and please PLEASE don't let comments like the one below discourage you.

SanKALIMay 4, 20181 votes

As a top lane champion, Wukong is not good at wave clear, so Wukong needs to buy Tiamat for pushing the lane.

But there is a problem that Tiamat could not be used in Wukong fast combo(EQR). I mean all champs like Riven, Camille, Renekton... can use Tiamat in their combo. Disability of Tiamat active really makes Tiamat become less worth buying while this item is really IMPORTANT in TOP LANE. So, we can see a lot of high elo Wu mains didn’t go Tiamat every game, just because it is not worth buying.

To be fair, if Garen can use Tiamat when he is spinning. And Garen even seldom go Hydra. So I think Wukong should be able to use Crescent (Tiamat Active).

Therefore, I am sincerely hope that Riot can consider make this little change to Wukong. This will make Tiamat more worth buying on Wukong.

TempName54846Apr 26, 20186 votes

are you implying wukong is weak? or would you like him to have a "real passive" at the cost of strength from his other spells?

Gameinformer404Apr 26, 20185 votes

It's because in your platinum elo, Wukong is around 50% and Ryze is about 45%. If a champion is historically bad, it needs a rework. Wukong has been hit or miss. As for Talon, 48% win rate won't be that low for long. Mid Season patch expects to need ADC's and will by the same token buff assists like Talon.

Wukong AirlinesApr 26, 20185 votes

Talon is more of a satisfaction problem rather than damage/counters

and for Wukong, is played in all elos, but rarely in higher ones, you don't judge the champ based on win ratio in certain elo, you take the overall opinion of the mains.

CrazFight Apr 26, 201815 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cloud Walker,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Gcm628fE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-04-26T16:23:12.745+0000)

Talon is more of a satisfaction problem rather than damage/counters

and for Wukong, is played in all elos, but rarely in higher ones, you don't judge the champ based on win ratio in certain elo, you take the overall opinion of the mains.

If we only took overall opinions of mains , most champs would be buffed to enternity so..

Wukong AirlinesApr 26, 20183 votes

solution is not to buff, rather, to adjust.

MegaHuffApr 26, 20183 votes

I don't know why this has so many downvotes. I at least agree with the sentiment that it's not good to just buff everything. I hear that's what Dota2 is like, everything is just OP.

Flawless FetusApr 26, 20184 votes

In dota 2, everyone excels at a niche. In league we have like 15 viable champs in pro play because there is so much overlap between champs that there is often a best. Dota every excels in their niches, so they all have potential to seem op when that niche is met. I haven't watched professional dota in awhile, but they used to have a huge amount of champs chosen professionally. League is more like rock paper scissors.

MegaHuffApr 26, 20183 votes

Yeah, I only briefly played Dota a couple years ago, so I'm not trying to act like this Dota master. I can see I may be wrong, but all I know is that it's somewhat of a meme that I've seen around here and there. What you said makes sense: if characters are niche then they have to be good at what they do, and I suppose that's just a difference in game design, nothing more.

I personally felt like everything was crazy too when I joined Dota, like everything was OP, but that doesn't really mean anything, because I'm sure if I picked League up for the first time ever, I'd feel the same way, haha.