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Why do people jump all over Yasuo and Zed but defend Azir?

HateDaddy·May 18, 2016·96 votes·8,106 views

I'm not going to try to convince anyone that Yasuo and Zed are perfect champions with no flaws but their gameplay has never been as broken as Azirs.

In high Elo and competitive play, Azir is a lane bully in several match ups and can play safely and farm against anyone. And after 25-30 minutes, he's basically auto-win. You can't shove on him after that point and if he sieges on you, it's lights out because you have to either dive him and his team at his passive turret or get chunked from over walls as he can pull it off safely.

He is a dps Mage with both insane burst and utility and decent enough mobility with long range. He has so many flaws in terms of his design that even his difficulty is a part of that. But champions being hard to play shouldn't come with the reward of basically free wins.

For as bad as Yasuo and Zed are, they can't carry team fights by themselves and stop sieges in their tracks while being one of the best sieging champions in the game - all while being one of the best scaling team fighters and laners in the game.

It just kind of baffles me, Azir hasn't been a solo queue pick for the majority of the time that zed has been, maybe more similar to Yasuo but when he's good, the game is so unfun for anyone who has to play against him and it feels completely unfair.

Now I will say this, I think these nerfs are definitely too far, I've always said they need to take some time off the duration of his wall because it lasts too long but these nerfs are a bit much. Thing is, if this was zed or Yasuo, people would be celebrating if they got gutted.

Fair is fair and Azir isn't fair and people should probably stop being so bias. I'm removing mine as much as possible but keep in mind Azir is one of the most dominant champions ever when he's good in pro play, same with Ryze.

243 Comments

Mr Broken WingsMay 18, 201616 votes

Azir isnt flashy enough to make people hate him? Its probably just that simple.

HateDaddyMay 18, 201619 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2016-05-18T03:11:22.262+0000)

Azir isnt flashy enough to make people hate him? Its probably just that simple.

I think he's pretty flashy..

Mr Broken WingsMay 18, 201635 votes

{quoted}

I think he's pretty flashy..

Hes also not consistently good and loses a lot of matches till higher elo. Zed stomps bronze and silver people like no tomorrow, meanwhile azir feeds in their games. 90% of the community is bronze or silver, ofc they will start hating zed instead of azir.

HateDaddyMay 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Mr Broken Wings,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T03:18:42.280+0000)

Hes also not consistently good and loses a lot of matches till higher elo. Zed stomps bronze and silver people like no tomorrow, meanwhile azir feeds in their games. 90% of the community is bronze or silver, ofc they will start hating zed instead of azir.

That doesn't make it right :p

NilokMay 18, 20161 votes

It doesn't make it wrong.

Though it most likely has more to do with Zed being a pick/ban for years that everyone is simply sick of him and the frustration of playing against him. Zed has been strong for a long, long time with few weaknesses.

Handin Out NapsMay 18, 20163 votes

No, that does make it wrong.

Also Zed hasn't been pick/ban for years, wtf? He was strong in the beggining of s5 then he got nerfed and no one ever heard anything from Zed until Riot decided to do a random bugfix on Zed in preseason 6 that shot him down to a 42% winrate. Then he was buffed back up and recently became pick/ban again. Zed will soon just like in s5 drop down to a 48%ish winrate and keep silent for the rest of s6, thats basically how it goes every season.

Ariel the CruelMay 18, 201615 votes

Hes also not consistently good and loses a lot of matches till higher elo.

People still complain about Lee Sin.

(I'm not taking a side in the debate, just pointing this out.)

NilokMay 18, 201621 votes

People dislike Lee because of how much utility and versatility he has.

Guy Fox TeemoMay 18, 20164 votes

Hes not consistently good because you have to be a lot better at azir to achieve 50% win rate , then you would with zed ( A LOT)

NyhverMay 18, 201612 votes

Azir's design due to his soldiers is innately more oppressive and 'stall' while also being 'don't get near me' than Zed and Yasuo

HateDaddyMay 18, 20169 votes

{quoted}

Azir's design due to his soldiers is innately more oppressive and 'stall' while also being 'don't get near me' than Zed and Yasuo

Well that would be fine if that was it but he also has the ability to engage forcefully on you or disengage entirely.

Rock MDMay 18, 201610 votes

I hate Azir tbfh even if I play him but I don't bother trying to get him nerfed because his fanbase doesn't give me as much cancer.

HateDaddyMay 18, 201613 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chairman Rock,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-18T02:45:17.517+0000)

I hate Azir tbfh even if I play him but I don't bother trying to get him nerfed because his fanbase doesn't give me as much cancer.

I won't argue there, Yasuo mains not named Hawke are toxic af

Spicy RiceMay 18, 20164 votes

Hey man, I'm pretty sure I'm not toxic

HateDaddyMay 18, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Hey man, I'm pretty sure I'm not toxic

Alright this guy isn't toxic. I'm trusting you, friend.

Akali is SO HOTMay 18, 201611 votes

item 3070 Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo Yasuo

Edit: God damn discussion view screwing up my memes

Papa AndreiMay 18, 20163 votes

Trinimmortal?

RevaliMay 18, 20169 votes

Zed is more he's a bit easier to pick up than you'd think (Edited for a really dumb mistake, hahaha). mastering him is the hard part.

Yasuo's just super tilt inducing because of the bullshit he can pull, sort of like my boy Ekko

Azir on the other hand, take more considerable time to pick up than either of to even play him basicly Let alone the 'get good' Etc.

NineTailedMysticMay 18, 20169 votes

He's not popular. It's that simple, if Zed wasn't essentially permaban right now I could promise a 15-20% play rate. He's sitting at a 9% play rate despite his 78% ban rate. Yasuo is moderately less popular, but still sitting pretty at 10% play rate mid, and 10% play rate top. Azir now has a 12% play rate, but it's extremely likely he just received a big spike in popularity due to 'lol pros played it'. While we always see constant Zed's and Yasuo, the average player just doesn't see Azir often. Now that's he was played in esports, people are gonna try and play him again and there would 100% have been "Nerf Azir, he's so oppressive" threads 6.10. Now that he's been nerfed quite hard, people will probably drop him again.

Plus I'd imagine an innate hatred for the 'weeb' champions or 'edgy' champions like Yasuo or Zed, respectively.

Naag OneMay 18, 20168 votes

its simple

majority of scrublords love that long range damage from safety and he shits on Yasuo Zed or other melee assassin-ish champs who they hate!

punish them for getting near a minion for cs. if they jump on you, pussy out instantly. maintain this shit till like 20 minutes outfarming them and win

lightdragoon88May 18, 20167 votes

There are 2 main differences.

Zed/Yasuo are AD while Azir is AP
And this is the biggest thing: AZIR IS NOT MANALESS!!!!

Ahem Sorry about that.

HateDaddyMay 18, 201612 votes

{quoted}

There are 2 main differences.

Zed/Yasuo are AD while Azir is AP

And this is the biggest thing: AZIR IS NOT MANALESS!!!!

Ahem Sorry about that.

What do these differences matter? Are you implying being AP means you can't be broken? And while yes, the resourceless thing gets old, let's be real, Azir has mana troubles for 5 minutes then mana really isn't a problem for him anymore..

CasterGilgameshMay 18, 20167 votes

Azir doesn't counter every single Mage and has more counter play

ChuChuMuthaDuckaMay 18, 20166 votes

The change I want to see to Azir is to let me kill his soldiers.

The fact that they're untargetable is bullshit. Every other champ that adds something on to the rift (Heimer, Zyra, Illaoi) has counterplay through the fact that their opponent can destroy whatever they add.

Azir doesn't have that, and it promotes his safe, oppressive play styles.

J EevoMay 18, 20166 votes

Because Azir is actually hard to play. It suprised me how awkward and weird his kit felt when I tried it so I have appreciation for people who make it work, in contrast to Zed who I picked on rotation once and still crushed people through basic understanding of the concept(and some experience on other casters I guess).

HateDaddyMay 18, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=J Eevo,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=001e,timestamp=2016-05-18T11:33:05.516+0000)

Because Azir is actually hard to play. It suprised me how awkward and weird his kit felt when I tried it so I have appreciation for people who make it work, in contrast to Zed who I picked on rotation once and still crushed people through basic understanding of the concept(and some experience on other casters I guess).

Mastering Zed is actually hard and Yasuo is NOT easy to play. I do believe Azir is in a class of his own but neither zed nor Yasuo are what I'd call easy either.

Hard PenetratorMay 18, 20166 votes

Ppl defend him because his nerf seems overly harsh. He is easier to counter than Zed and ppl aren't so afraid of him because its pretty easy to judge what he can or can't do. Yes he is obviously strong but while he can get you low he rarely can finish you off while other problematic champions that got nerfed or gutted mostly deleted ppl without any counterplay (mostly assassins and bruisers) or are unkillable while dishing tons of dmg .

SpongebobIsLifeMay 18, 20162 votes

uhhh how on earth is he easier to counter than zed? lol and idk what you are talking about, azir's damage mid to late game is stupid and at least with a melee assassin you can reach him, but if you can't, as long he has good positioning, he will dictate that fight and slaughter your time.

Hard PenetratorMay 18, 20162 votes

Azir is relatively easy to pressure and when he is pressured he can't really dish out insane dmg you are talking about. At the end of the fight it doesn't matter how much dmg you did if non of the enemies actually died, and Azir is pretty terrible at securing kills. Yes, yes, 6 item azir can delete squishy in 1 combo but most of APc/assassins can do that. I also feel like his ult is sometimes overrated. It may win you a fight but most of the time Azir have to keep it in case someone jump him and its basically a dead skill while other APC will delete someone and rush Azir down. He will use his ult to run away but lost fight is lost.

I just feel like he is pretty simple and ppl know that they actually handle him. There is a reason why he isn't banned so often.

The DeckownerMay 18, 20164 votes

Azir is the reason why Mages sucks ass right now, no it's not because zed not because yasuo not because adc not because mage item nerfs it's because Azir is flat out better than every single mage in every single aspect, that is why mages are in bad spots, that's why entire MSI is Azir Ryze Leblanc , because azir is flat out better than everyone else and the other two are counters to him.

High skillcap=/=allow to be opaf, rito need to stop leaving all the "high skillcap champions" Azir Zed Leblanc Kindred Nidalee at broken states

HateDaddyMay 18, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2016-05-18T03:19:39.094+0000)

Azir is the reason why Mages sucks ass right now, no it's not because zed not because yasuo not because adc not because mage item nerfs it's because Azir is flat out better than every single mage in every single aspect, that is why mages are in bad spots, that's why entire MSI is , because azir is flat out better than everyone else and the other two are counters to him.

High skillcap=/=allow to be opaf, rito need to stop leaving all the "high skillcap champions" at broken states

To be fair, Ryze is getting reworked for the 19th time. They just need to abandon his mana mana ratios, it's what breaks him.

PDE5 InhibMay 18, 20164 votes

I've seen plenty of people complain about Azir to be honest. I personally think the champ is bullshit. But I think the answer to your question is that Zed has been strong for a lot longer, so people are tired of him.

KorZodMay 18, 20164 votes

Because anywhere besides absurdly high elo Azir is garbage, and a silver Zed/Yasuo will still make you cry. There's also more "fairness" about Azir's play, where if he fucks up his Azirsec, he won't reliably all in you, and a more mobile champion can fuck with him rather well. Zed and Yasuo can repeatedly all in and outfarm you, regardless of what champion you play (except maybe a good fizz?) starting from level 2 or 3. Yasuo mostly because no matter how much he can be shut down in lane, (which is annoying enough to do as most mages with his free shield and dashes) all he needs is an IE to start doing metric buckets of damage. Zed is a little "fairer" in that if he's shut down in lane before the other person gets Zhonya's, he probably wont destroy you late; but there's also no counterplay to him currently besides a Zhonya's. As an ADC, there's a perceived idea that no matter what, in a teamfight, Zed will ult QE you and you're dead, no matter how far away you are, and then he double shadows away to safety.

TLDR: Azir is completely fair in everybody's hands beside Pro and incredibly high ELO, where he is a bit over the top, but a mediocre Yasuo or Zed can still absolutely fuck with people in most ELO's (remembering over 50% of playerbase is below silver 3 or so)

CasterGilgameshMay 18, 20163 votes

Azir takes time to master so of course the reward for mastering him should be just as good they simply Nerfed his ult across all boards now the people who even dare try Azir without being on the Level of an LC$ team get punished the community is tired of seeing Zed and Yasuo as they take almost no skill to do good against all mages and even most of the over Nerfed assassins that aren't called Leblanc.most people are just tired of the weird BIAS riot has I.E. Lee sin Zed Yasuo and maybe just I few more I forgot

DengedenMay 18, 20163 votes

They could never admit that a full AP mage is crushing mid lane. That'd destroy their position of "AD items make AP champions obsolete"

XengreMay 19, 20163 votes

Zed is more of a bully than Azir with no resource cost, extremely high damage, supreme safety, and he could crush Azir in a lane match up. Zed does not have a losing match up, it does not exist. This is due to his safety, his range and ability to farm, lack of resources, and overall synergy he has across the board with everything he could want to make sure he succeeds. If Zed loses a lane it was the player's fault for not being good enough or as good as the enemy. In an equal skill ceiling Zed will ALWAYS draw either even or ahead against any champion in the current roster. That is a problem.

His passive turret doesn't last long and you can simply swap lanes to push. It has a much longer CD than desirable so its actually not that great other than as a stop gap to abrubtly end a push from opposing team that isn't "too ahead" as his tower isn't even that lethal and wont save you from enemies who are already dominating or strong dives. Zed can simply all in and then leave safetly on Azir due to his shadow swap and ult, even if they have to sacrifice a support, top or jungle to achieve this that is usually a great trade.

Zed is DPS and burst. He has ADC level DPS mid and late game while having extremely high burst with fairly low CDs and itemization that always favors CD reduction so it is even lower CDs.

Zed could simply split push and beat anyone 1v1 who tries to duel him unless he is behind and the person who tries to stop him is way ahead, and even then it would be very champion and skill dependent. Zed can totally carry team fights by easily shutting down an intended target while having more than enough damage to continue trucking, has strong harass that can discourage engagement or hit multiple champions, and can easily attract focus and then get out while doing his job while the enemy wastes time on him.

Zed simply needs to no longer exist because Riot has shown blatant bias favoring him and will never be capable of properly balancing him with their current employees.

Papa SlothyMay 18, 20162 votes

I think they should hit him in his early game q damage and the cooldown on his w recharge

taleofsonataMay 18, 20161 votes

Cuz Azir has only receives nerf? He never got buffed?

HateDaddyMay 18, 201625 votes

{quoted}

Cuz Azir has only receives nerf? He never got buffed?

Zed and Yasuo have been nerfed and Azir has been buffed.

And let's assume what you were saying was true. People are still complaining that Yasuo and Zed are OP so clearly they're strong. So if we assume that they never get nerfed and Azir only gets nerfed, wouldn't Azir, which everyone acknowledges is the best mid laner in the game right now, be broken as shit? Like, he only gets nerfed but he's still the best.

Lord AzırMay 18, 201613 votes

Azir has never received a buff. He's bad bug fixes and QoL changes but other than that its been nerf after nerf. You wanna know why hes strong as shit right now? Think back 2 months ago in the NA LCS. Teams were running tripple marksman comps. Graves / kindred jg, corki mid, and a adc bot lane. Imortals even went so far as to run Lucian top. All these champioms have burst and sustain damage.

Azir does everything an adc does except he has no crits, or sustain and is a little harder to play than just right click a champion. The problem is with sustained dmg. Who are the top 3 OP mages right now? Aurelion Sol =57% winrate in solo queue, Ryze 100% pick ban at MSI, and Azir is basically the same story. All sustained dmg dealers with decent burst.

Adcs are mandatory in every game for their broken sustained dmg. The 3 champs i mentioned are the same.

HateDaddyMay 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0RD AZIR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T03:34:21.180+0000)

Azir has never received a buff. He's bad bug fixes and QoL changes but other than that its been nerf after nerf. You wanna know why hes strong as shit right now? Think back 2 months ago in the NA LCS. Teams were running tripple marksman comps. Graves / kindred jg, corki mid, and a adc bot lane. Imortals even went so far as to run Lucian top. All these champioms have burst and sustain damage.

Azir does everything an adc does except he has no crits, or sustain and is a little harder to play than just right click a champion. The problem is with sustained dmg. Who are the top 3 OP mages right now? Aurelion Sol =57% winrate in solo queue, Ryze 100% pick ban at MSI, and Azir is basically the same story. All sustained dmg dealers with decent burst.

Adcs are mandatory in every game for their broken sustained dmg. The 3 champs i mentioned are the same.

That's the thing, sustained damage mages have always been a nightmare to balance because basically they burst squishies and dps down tanks, the same an ADC would do. But the big difference is, they're mages and have utility and strong CC that ADCs not named Ashe and Sivir can't dream of matching (and Ashe and Sivir do considerably less damage than other ADCs). Kindred too but her damage falls off late game.

Lord AzırMay 18, 20166 votes

But thats the trade off, they dont rely on cooldowns, they cant get poked down (kill a wave and get full hp), they also have crit and dont need mana to do damage. They need that cc because they cant get that HP back amd none can out trade a ADC with the same amount of items.

HateDaddyMay 18, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0RD AZIR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=00060000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T03:57:06.863+0000)

But thats the trade off, they dont rely on cooldowns, they cant get poked down (kill a wave and get full hp), they also have crit and dont need mana to do damage. They need that cc because they cant get that HP back amd none can out trade a ADC with the same amount of items.

ADCs do rely on cool downs though, especially their escape spells. Probably the same way dps mages don't really worry about cool downs as much as they worry about order of spell rotations as their cool downs are very low. And what ADCs heal up on isn't innate, it's through itemization. DPS mages innately have utility and that sets them far apart in that regard.

Lord AzırMay 18, 20167 votes

Mages NEED spells to do any dmg. ADCs right click and do all the dmg they need. Not to mention a full Lucian or MF ult will do more dmg in a team fight than most mages can dream of doing. Azirs E his escape is on a 20 second cooldown early game while he also has 325 movespeed. The slowest in the game. Most ADCs have at least 335 and decent utility with a decent escape.

DPS mages have utility and ADCS dont? Sivir has a free righteous glory while also having a spell shield and aoe crits, kindred has a slow + kayle ulti, corki has a rumble ult, Ezreal has a perma slow once he buys 2 items while also having a flash on a 6 second cooldown, tristana has a knock back, burst and a jump, twitch as a rengar ulti on a regular spell.... I could go on forever. What does Azir have? An escape and a knock back. Oh sounds like tristana...

HateDaddyMay 18, 20165 votes

[{quoted}](name=L0RD AZIR,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GX1kX9Tc,comment-id=0006000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-18T04:13:52.814+0000)

Mages NEED spells to do any dmg. ADCs right click and do all the dmg they need. Not to mention a full Lucian or MF ult will do more dmg in a team fight than most mages can dream of doing. Azirs E his escape is on a 20 second cooldown early game while he also has 325 movespeed. The slowest in the game. Most ADCs have at least 335 and decent utility with a decent escape.

DPS mages have utility and ADCS dont? Sivir has a free righteous glory while also having a spell shield and aoe crits, kindred has a slow + kayle ulti, corki has a rumble ult, Ezreal has a perma slow once he buys 2 items while also having a flash on a 6 second cooldown, tristana has a knock back, burst and a jump, twitch as a rengar ulti on a regular spell.... I could go on forever. What does Azir have? An escape and a knock back. Oh sounds like tristana...

I've literally addressed everything you've posted here

Lord AzırMay 18, 20162 votes

Imagine if walking on Azir soldiers snared you and made you take extra dmg from autos, he also had a 50% chance of doing 2.5x his regular soldier dmg per auto and his ult was removed but instead he had a long range execute. He also could get 100% spell vamp from will of the ancients instead of 1/3rd.

I literatelly just described a late game caitlyn with runnans, ie and bloodthirster.. Now take all those things away, compare nerfed Azir to a late game ADC and tell me how hes better.

Ferus and FerrumMay 18, 20166 votes

Azir can do the same damage if not more from more range, reposition(while dealing damage), shield himself, self peel with hard cc that can even prevent the enemy from flashing if they misposition, can opt into an item that also slows on every soldier auto, on top of the q slow.

When an adc can construct a full blown tower to prevent siege or siege then maybe. Also azir doens't have to buy runaans to hit multiple targets with the FULL damage of his soldiers and q. He gets that for free.

Don't forget most have zhonyas hourglass for help vs assassins and rough engages, so a 2.5 second stasis usually doenst hurt.

But the best part is, the wall nerf affects literally none of what I've mentioned above.

(I also dont get where the 100% spell vamp number is coming from. Most ads can only get 20-30% lifesteal which is pretty much the same as 30% off of a wota.)

Lord AzırMay 19, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Azir can do the same damage if not more from more range, reposition(while dealing damage), shield himself, self peel with hard cc that can even prevent the enemy from flashing if they misposition, can opt into an item that also slows on every soldier auto, on top of the q slow.

When an adc can construct a full blown tower to prevent siege or siege then maybe. Also azir doens't have to buy runaans to hit multiple targets with the FULL damage of his soldiers and q. He gets that for free.

Don't forget most have zhonyas hourglass for help vs assassins and rough engages, so a 2.5 second stasis usually doenst hurt.

But the best part is, the wall nerf affects literally none of what I've mentioned above.

(I also dont get where the 100% spell vamp number is coming from. Most ads can only get 20-30% lifesteal which is pretty much the same as 30% off of a wota.)

"Most ads can only get 20-30% lifesteal which is pretty much the same as 30% off of a wota.".. Umm what? WoTA is 15% spell vamp which is the same as 15% lifesteal. Azir only does AoE and spellvamp is 1/3rd the heal with AoE spells. So Azir heals 5% of his dmg done if you go and actually build spell vamp. What are you talking about??

Ahh bringing up item 3157 then let me bring up some stronger items that ADCs tend to build item 3156 item 3053 item 3139 .. Hmm build these and you're immune to burst and can stop any form of CC.

ADCs can also have a perma slow almost just as strong item 3022 , they just choose not too. The few times I do see this built though yeah it's strong. They just don't value it over items like item 3156 item 3053 item 3072 item 3031 item 3094 . Hell give me the active of item 3139 and i'll gladly trade my item 3116 slow for it.

JMoormannMay 18, 20161 votes

Probably because Azir is still below 50% win rate, where Zed was sitting around 53-54% for quite a while. Yasuo has never got so much hate as Zed, and he has never been really OP.

GayFluffyUnicornMay 18, 20163 votes

Yasuo never op? Are u drunk? Or did u start league at preseason? Yasuo on release had diana broken status. He would just 1v5 pentakirr every fight, chase you over the entire map, crit every squishy and tank to death in seconds.

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