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Anybody else annoyed with how poorly balanced Rengar is?

Smitemuffin··44 votes·3,798 views

Pay careful note to the factseen that I said 'poorly balanced', not 'unbalanced'.

As a Feast/Famine champ, Rengar basically dictates the outcome of the game based on whether or not he succeeds in his first 2-3 ganks and whether or not the other team picked Janna

A Rengar that fell behind is pretty much the most useless champ I've ever seen. But a Rengar that's even or ahead means that at least one of his opponents is simply no longer allowed to play the game.I realized this when playing Brand

While I was roughly even on items, by item #3, even though that item was Zhonyas, Rengar was simply 2-shotting me whenever he wanted. The first such incident was about 1780 (~105% of max hp) in a whole 0.36 seconds. For a zero-skill champ like Rengar, I find this pattern of play extremely unhealthy. Either you're the reason you the team won or the reasons they lost 90% of the time and there's nothing anybody else can do about it.

Personally, I'd love to see his 2-shot damage removed in exchange for the ability to instantly pounce whenever his bola strikes a target. . He'd be avoidable, he'd involve some respectable element of skill and he'd have a tool to still do his thing if the enemy team has Janna.

116 Comments

The Patriachy10 votes

Back in season 3, the four strongest assassins were kassadin, zed, fizz and ahri. All of them got nerfed heavily and now struggle to 100-0 the adc even without the support peeling.

I think it is pretty dangerous to nerf the only assassin besides talon that can actually 100-0 the adc going into season 6. Don't think assassins will be the problem in season 6.

Ulquiorra99510 votes

It's not that he 100-0s someone. It's that he does it with you being given a split-second warning at best. With Talon, Zed or Ahri at least you see them coming and can prepare accordingly.

The Patriachy3 votes

{quoted}

It's not that he 100-0s someone. It's that he does it with you being given a split-second warning at best. With Talon, Zed or Ahri at least you see them coming and can prepare accordingly.

I think that speaks more about the weakness of zed/ahri than the strength of rengar.

Why should the adc have a 50:50 chance of being able to self-peel themselves from an ahri/zed assassination without even having to buy a defensive item? Factor in a good support/QSS and they will never assassinate you ever again.

We need more champions like rengar/talon where the adc has to rely on their team/buy an actual defensive item.

Abyssphere4 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Patriachy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GNTJlguQ,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2015-11-10T00:58:54.456+0000)

I think that speaks more about the weakness of zed/ahri than the strength of rengar.

Why should the adc have a 50:50 chance of being able to self-peel themselves from an ahri/zed assassination without even having to buy a defensive item? Factor in a good support/QSS and they will never assassinate you ever again.

We need more champions like rengar/talon where the adc has to rely on their team/buy an actual defensive item.

Even when Ahri was a much stronger assassin than she is now, you could react to her. Same story for Zed. Assassins having counterplay doesn't mean they're weak. Being incapable of 100-0ing squishies means they're weak, but needing to actually play their champion well to do it does not mean that.

Carry1 votes

{quoted}

It's not that he 100-0s someone. It's that he does it with you being given a split-second warning at best. With Talon, Zed or Ahri at least you see them coming and can prepare accordingly.

lol

talon's 100-0 from stealth is just as fast as rengar's. you can stealth with R, then blink to ADC and 100-0 with auto + auto reset. literally exactly the same as rengar except talon has higher upside in teamfights.

Melledoneus1 votes

Engaging with your ult means you are extremely confident, stupid, or both. Talon's ult is used as a disengage in team fights.

Carry2 votes

{quoted}

Engaging with your ult means you are extremely confident, stupid, or both. Talon's ult is used as a disengage.

Like all abilities in the game, it's used situationally. Ulting to 100-0 someone from stealth is pretty common though. Particularly when an ADC is solo catching a wave.

Point being though, that Talon can do the same 100-0 with 2 fast autos out of stealth to 100-0 an ADC with no counterplay, whereas the person to whom I'm responding said Rengar is the only champion who can 100-0 you in a split second without you seeing it coming.

Melledoneus1 votes

I agree that its use is situational, but it's rare for a carry to be separated from the rest of their team so far into the game. Generally, ADCs will have somebody with them or be with their team, which is a more widespread strategy amongst teams. I agree that Talon's stealth-into jump is hard to see coming, but you generally only use it to catch up to carries, which shouldn't be the case if you are 100-0'ing them with a surprise attack. However, there are situations (Ahri like this creature) in which you need all the mobility you can get to catch them. So yes, it can be used like that, but using the ultimate to engage is more common and recommended in Talon's niche.

Carry1 votes

{quoted}

I agree that its use is situational, but it's rare for a carry to be separated from the rest of their team so far into the game. Generally, ADCs will have somebody with them or be with their team, which is a more widespread strategy amongst teams. I agree that Talon's stealth-into jump is hard to see coming, but you generally only use it to catch up to carries, which shouldn't be the case if you are 100-0'ing them with a surprise attack. However, there are situations (Ahri like this creature) in which you need all the mobility you can get to catch them. So yes, it can be used like that, but using the ultimate to engage is more common and recommended in Talon's niche.

You're Bronze and have 0 talon games this season. I'm Diamond and Talon is my 7th most played champ.

The stuff you're saying just literally doesn't even make sense. "you only use [stealth-into jump] to catch up to carries". No, you only use R first to make picks by appearing out of stealth from fog of war. Has nothing to do with chasing or catching up, it's for stealth. If an ADC is catching a wave, you stealth ghostblade from FoW then e-aa-q out of stealth to kill them with no counterplay. Carries catch waves solo all the time at all stages in the game at all elos.

This isn't your area of expertise and that's okay.

Melledoneus1 votes

{quoted}

You're Bronze and have 0 talon games this season. I'm Diamond and Talon is my 7th most played champ.

You're one of THOSE people, aren't you? Sigh I have Tier 5 Talon and I don't feel like uploading it on the web right now, but if you check my profile you'll see for yourself. So much for "0 Talon games."

No, you only use R first to make picks by appearing out of stealth from fog of war. Has nothing to do with chasing or catching up, it's for stealth. If an ADC is catching a wave, you stealth ghostblade from FoW then e-aa-q out of stealth to kill them with no counterplay.

Ahem

I agree that Talon's stealth-into jump is hard to see coming,

You can still see the particles if the ADC is wary that there is a freaking assassin on the other team, and their team is warding properly.

This isn't your area of expertise and that's okay.

Talon is my main mid laner. Don't give me that crap, please. If you want to be condescending that you're Diamond and I'm Bronze because I don't feel like playing ranked, fine. Jump on that bandwagon. If you want to act like you're better than me because you play Talon here and there, just stop. I'm tired of people making the same stupid argument off of websites that reveal unreliable information that hardly updates like lolking and OP.GG. My MMR matches me up against Golds-Diamonds (and once even a Master) Division players all the time. I know how to play the game.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

I would love to see you get diamond.

Melledoneus1 votes

This season? Didn't have the patience when 9 out of 12 of my silver promos were 3v5s. Next season? If I get the time between work and college, I'll do my best to. I know how to play the game enough, and I know how to deal with difficult teammates where it's possible.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

You truly don't realize how higher elos think differently until you get there, trust me. You can tell yourself I can get to diamond easily np, but honestly it isn't easy. I don't mean to sound like a dick but if you don't fly out of bronze 2 in 40 games its probably gonna take you a VERY long time to get to diamond.

Melledoneus1 votes

I've played in the higher elos before, and it truly is different. Many of my friends are in those divisions, and they've coached me on almost every single strategy, mindset, and behavior of higher elo players. The exploitation of every single mechanic, the strategy of warding, the weighing of choices, and the absolute need to balance out team compositions, among many other things. (If I missed any, feel free to correct me, we are always making mistakes and learning)

And I never said getting to Diamond was easy. I just don't see much incentive to push for it. If getting to Diamond got me anything but bragging rights and a border/icon, I would do it. Getting to Diamond would require LOTS of ranked spamming, especially if you have luck as rotten as mine when it comes to teammates. Once you push past mid-Gold, the game becomes less about whether you were paired up with awful teammates and more about your skill and how you contribute to a team you were matched up with. I've been told otherwise several times, but that's the way I see it. It's all based on skill and shot-calling at that point.

Handin Out Naps1 votes

I think Talon is almost equally as fast tbh.

Melledoneus1 votes

It rakes Rengar 3 items. It takes Talon 5.

Leu0710 votes

He's probably the most annoying assasin when ahead in the game. He can even towerdive you easily 'cause all he needs to do is jump on you and you are dead, the store should just open once you see the "!" mark on you.

Melledoneus4 votes

Although Rengar's damage can get pretty ridiculous, it's noteworthy to mention he doesn't have any other gap closers that don't involve brush. Assassins lile Zed, Ahri, Akali, Talon, and Fizz all have gap closers they can use in lane to get to their opponent. If Rengar's leap is interrupted, he's a sitting duck. And boy, do those Flay plays feel good.

Smitemuffin1 votes

Exactly. That's the problem that makes him so poorly balanced. Either there's nothing you can do against him, or there's nothing he can do against you.

Melledoneus3 votes

That's not exactly a poor balancing method. Rengar has clear opportunities of strength, but they're followed by weakness. If he eliminates his target (the carry), then he can continue to deal damage with his team behind him. If he doesn't he gets deleted himself. There's always something Rengar can do if he's behind, and that's split push. So he can make himself useful if your team gets ahead of him, and the fact that his ultimate gives him the strength it does allows him to be a strong assassin with a unique and powerful mechanic that makes up for the lack of unconditional gap closers in his kit.

As for not being able to do anything against him, Rengars generally go for the carries. It's a repetitive pattern, and expected. Good warding and fast reflexes can make any Rengar useless as long as you have the hard CC to do so. On more than one occasion, I've CC'd Rengars mid-jump (Shen E FTW) and allowed my carries to obliterate him. It's all about skill and teamwork. Assassins are supposed to do their job, and tanks/supports are supposed to make it harder for them, if not stop them altogether.

A Liberal7 votes

Isn't that what an assassins supposed to do? High Risk, High Reward... not saying assassin's aren't the most toxic class in the game who often have mechanics that make it impossible to try and play against them, (HACK Ekko HACK Dies of salt overdose), but still.

3ofGot40ve5 votes

For a zero-skill champ like Rengar, I find this pattern of play extremely unhealthy

Rengar is not a 'Zero Skill Champion'. Not sure where you came up with that.. Second off, upgrade a sweeping lens if your really that afraid.. Personally i feel unless some extremwly high elo players are saying on multiple occasions that a certain champ is off - balanced, you dont really know what you are talking about OR you havnt invested in the time to learn how to play against reng.

Edit: im sorry but i just kind of disreguard this post because you are complaining about a champion who has decent outplay potential. A few months ago i was against a 16-0 rengar who could indeed shred, but its not like he is that tanky. My conclusion is that some cc and teamwork can fix your problem.

Smitemuffin15 votes

Oracle's Lens: Radius 600

Rengar Leap Range: 600/750

Great idea: it's just far enough to see him AS he's leaping. Unless of course, he has 6 takedowns. Brilliant. Not that you can eve get one before level 9 anyway....

Zero Skill: no resource, a free spell without cooldown from Ferocity, the only skillshot on him is easily point-blanked while leaping, extremely cheap build. If you can instantly delete somebody with a right click and two buttons Leap > bola > auto > Q is one click and two buttons), you're playing a zero skill champ. And that's exactly what Rengar does.

kJs3 votes

Zero mechanical skill champ yes. Decision making is quite vital.

TurquoiseYoshi1 votes

R -> Right-click on the ADC -> Q -> E -> W Such skill OMG.

And, while it's not really great proof, my Diamond friend bans Rengar every game as an ADC main.

Salt Miner 49 Er3 votes

{quoted}

R -> Right-click on the ADC -> Q -> E -> W Such skill OMG.

And, while it's not really great proof, my Diamond friend bans Rengar every game as an ADC main.

Riven R - E - W - Q - AA - Q - R Such skill OMG!

Pantheon W - E - Q Such skill OMG!

Yasuo E -> Twice -> Q prep -> R when tornado knockup -> E Such skill OMG!

Ryze R -> JOHN FUCKING MADDEN Such skill OMG!

MasterYi R -> AA -> Q -> AA until dead Such skill OMG!

I can play the hyperbole game too.

TurquoiseYoshi6 votes

That's a lot of buttons.

That was never considered a tough combo.

You cut out about 3 minor uses and everything that happens after the ult-E.

There's a very specific spell order for that.

See Pantheon. There's a reason why Yi is so overused in low elo.

3ofGot40ve2 votes

I would just like to start off by saying riven and yasuo both have pretty high skill caps.

Second off, your listing the combos and saying 'wow such skill' but you could literally do that for every champion in the game and say the same thing, which doesnt always make it true. I dont get your argument here..

Lugg5 votes

He is by far the most binary champ in the game. If he is ahead, he can 1v5 the other team. If he is behind, he is pretty much worthless.

He needs a rework badly.

3ofGot40ve3 votes

{quoted}

He is by far the most binary champ in the game. If he is ahead, he can 1v5 the other team. If he is behind, he is pretty much worthless.

He needs a rework badly.

I wouldnt say he could 1v5..

Ancestor0071 votes

but 1v3 probably

3ofGot40ve1 votes

Even then that leaves nearly no margin for error, unless those 3 are that unskilled.

Ancestor0071 votes

it depends... if he is like 20 0 and the enemies are near some bushes....

3ofGot40ve1 votes

20 - 0 a bit farfetched I feel.. and like I said in that case they must be terrible players to get to that point xD

Lugg1 votes

Sadly, it isn't that far fetched. If a Rengar reaches 3-0, he will snowball so hard that the only way he dies before late game is if he really screws up.

Lugg1 votes

He can basically one shot a carry making it 1v4 pretty much right off the bat. I have seen many a Rengar go 1v5 and kill 3 of the enemy team before going down. I'll take that trade anytime.

Akenero4 votes

His counter is primarily used via pink wards, but the dumb thing is how vision doesnt stop him from jumping. Basically he has a ton of minor parts that accumulate towards him instantly exploding things. He needs to have more warning as well, such as slowing his ability to cast after a jump, even .25 seconds of inactivity allow for deletes, but aren't unstoppable

Also, rengar has bigh enough base damage to delete people even if his damages were gutted, especially if he could pounce from bola, just build crit damage and the reset and bonus of q will destroy anything

Stellafreyja4 votes

Had a game where I was Tristana. I had probably about 8 deaths that match, 6 of which were from Rengar. It'd be like, "Hey, there's a teamfight breaking out, I should join in." death Like I swear he would ult right next to me because I would never see the ! pop up over my head.

3ofGot40ve3 votes

Getting caught out is normally your own fault. If it happens 2 times maybe you should stop walking through the jungle alone.

Stellafreyja10 votes

Here's the thing, I was never alone. Always had my support or someone else next to me.

3ofGot40ve1 votes

[{quoted}](name=fishing l3g3nd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GNTJlguQ,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2015-11-09T21:39:49.128+0000)

If he gets to the point where he can do that it is because you let him work his way up to it. You have a good argument, HOWEVER, many are complaining about the fact that they have low reaction time when it comes to the "!" when he is near. Oracle lens gives you at least a second to realize "Hey, maybe I should zhonyas right now!" (Or use spell shield, cc, stat booster, etc.) I just don't think he is unbalanced because of how easily he can be shutdown early on in the game. He is only annoying to deal with if you make the mistakes that lead to him getting fed.

Same deal here.

Stellafreyja12 votes

So it's my fault as an ADC that Rengar got fed off the rest of my team? He had about 3 kills or so before killing me for the first time. He then got about 4-5 kills before killing me the next time.

I placed a pink ward in the tri-bush near bot tower (which was still up) and saw him coming at me and still couldn't get away/defend myself.

Sir Yamazuki2 votes

[{quoted}](name=fishing l3g3nd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=GNTJlguQ,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-11-09T19:48:12.290+0000)

Getting caught out is normally your own fault. If it happens 2 times maybe you should stop walking through the jungle alone.

You mean not leave base, seeing as that's the only mistake he made.

SlytherinUmbreon1 votes

Aren't Assassin Meta's so much fun?

Handin Out Naps1 votes

It isn't the "Assassin Meta", it is just Rengar. If you get caught out by any other assassin except maybe Talon it's because you have no wards to see them comming. Rengar just ults and kills you before you even know what happened.

SlytherinUmbreon1 votes

I was refering to the one at the start of the season.

Mr Broken Wings4 votes

Do you guys remember when riot reworked rengar in the same champion? Good times.

Ralanr3 votes

If feast or famine champions are a problem, then every hyper carry and lane bully are unbalanced.

Clearly I am missing something.

Akenero6 votes

Rebgar fills a special place due to his invisibility, jungle power, and instantaneous burst from very few items or kills. His invisibility means that the warning given is very short before you go pop, and due to his use as a jungler, he. can just sit nearby a winning lane and get an easy kill,which feeds his stupidly high snowballing even further.

LVL 5 PORO1 votes

Rengar is an assassin. His JOB is to kill squishy targets. So no, its not poorly balanced, its working as intended. If you want to stop dying pick a mage with mobility, buy some wards and a sweeper, stay grouped, whatever. That's like robbing a bank and saying, "Cops are bad because they stop me from robbing people! They need to be stopped!" No. That's their job.

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