So can we stop overreacting about tanks now?

HateDaddy··38 votes·2,733 views

Today, so far, in the LCS, each game has had one tank and most have been tank vs tank top lane. We've seen 4 tanks played, Maokai Poppy Nautilus and Shen. And for competitive play, that's a pretty large pool for one class considering you usually see only 1-2 champions dominate at one class per meta.

But it's not just competitive, every metric we have available tells us tanks overall are performing decently in solo queue. Here's a look from champion.gg:

Amumu: 51.15% WR/4.24% PR(playrate) Gragas (jg): 50.86% WR/ 2.89% WR Ivern: 54.08% WR/2.69% PR Leona: 51.54% WR/9.92% PR Malphite: 52% WR/5.22% PR Maokai: 50.92% WR/9.81% PR Nautilus(top): 52% WR/4.74% PR Poppy: 48.66% WR/5.23% WR (see note) Rammus(jg): 52.6% WR/2.18% PR Sejuani: 50.68% WR/2.37% PR Shen: 48.89% WR/5.86% PR (see note) Sion: 50.57% WR/2.53% PR Taric: 51.86% WR/2.73% PR Zac: 50.28% WR/6.74% PR

Poppy: it should be noted that Poppy has always maintained a lower winrate, even when considered OP she's barely cracked 50%. And she does get picked frequently in competitive so this is one where I think the stasticis are misleading and I'd like to point that out.

Shen: shens winrate will likely always remain low in soloqueue but his global presence makes him a hot commodity in competitive. He's broken in one, underwhelming in another. I'd say yes strong overall in the hands of a good player but they'll likely never buff him significantly because of that.

Tanks below 50% Winrate:

Alistar 49.58% WR/4.4% PR Braum: 49.29% WR/6.77% PR Tahm Kench (support): 48.6% WR/2.98 Poppy* Shen*

I did not include some of the less conventional roles like Rammus/Grag/Tahm top etc because the playrates are so low that the data is not reliable.

I also included Poppy and Shen in the top half despite their winrates being below 50% because of their frequent usage in competitive play. This suggests they are strong but obviously something doesn't translate as well to solo queue. That's because winrates and playrates alone in isolated cases aren't indicative of anything because you have to factor champion skill, the current meta and other variables that can easily raise or lower a champions winrate. But when you take an entire class across the board, you can see that on average almost every tank in the game wins more games than they lose while maintaining playrates consistent at least around 2-3%, which is generally just mains playing them. Considering that, mains are successful on these champions across the board. Some have higher playrates, some have lower playrates but just because a champion isn't meta does not mean they're weak.

I'm not here to tell you lethality isnt busted. I have never made that claim because hell yeah, lethality is busted. I think BC is slightly busted too and guess what? They are being addressed. But please, can we stop with this ridiculous notion that tanks are being destroyed in the lethality meta because every major metric we have available suggests that isn't true. I'm not telling you playing in the lethality meta doesn't feel shitty either, that's a matter of opinion and you've every right to feel how you feel. But it's not the end of tanks, they're doing just fine.

I'm honestly not even opposed to many of these tanks seeing some small buffs simply because I believe many of them can use small QoL buffs or just straight power buffs (like Sej needing her early clears buffed). I think support tanks are performing weaker because mage and poke supports being strong, which is a direct counter to tank supports not named Leona. But even then, I think Alistar needs to have some of his cooldowns reduced because he is so infrequently impactful and I think it's safe to buff him now.

So, can we start being logical? Is that too much to ask? Tanks are going to be reworked too, which will probably see another tank meta afterwards because that's what tends to happen in class reworks. I'm willing to be reasonable but that means we need to stop making unreasonable claims and outright lies.

I've said my peace gameplay, downvote away.

65 Comments

AHeroNamedHawke22 votes

Dad I control F'd "tank" in your profile and got 131 hits in the last 4 days

I think you need a vacation

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8INVAl2,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-02-19T01:26:24.830+0000)

Dad I control F'd "tank" in your profile and got 131 hits in the last 4 days

I think you need a vacation

Wait are you serious?

AHeroNamedHawke7 votes
HateDaddy13 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8INVAl2,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T01:37:41.078+0000)

http://i.imgur.com/0qQ67vF.png[]

Oh. That explains why she wanted a divorce.

AHeroNamedHawke11 votes

{quoted}

Oh. That explains why she wanted a divorce.

You only forgot to pick me up from school 4 days in a row

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Charles Barklius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8INVAl2,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T02:00:45.900+0000)

You only forgot to pick me up from school 4 days in a row

god damn tank mains

FalconPawwwwnch2 votes

Miss you mfers

HateDaddy1 votes

{quoted}

Miss you mfers

love u

WoonStruck12 votes

My issues come from off-tanks taking nearly true damage, not tanks being reduced.

Its either stack 3+ armor items, or don't buy armor at all, and that's honestly bullshit.

MissingKayo2 votes

Lethality by itself does almost nothing to tanks.

Cleaver and LDR both hurt like hell. But then Lethality on top of that applies Lethality after a huge amount of their armor has been effectively removed.

It's like rubbing salt into an open wound, as if LDR or Cleaver wasn't already bad enough by itself.

300 (assuming 50 base, 250 bonus) Armor goes to 210 armor after Cleaver, LDR sends it to 97.5. 50 Lethality if you get each of the 3 items (Edge, Ghost, Dusk) sends it to 47.5. In runes (most people go for Lethality marks over quints), you can get up to 14.4 from marks, sending it to 33.1.

If they go Cunning Tree for the Lethality, it goes to 24.6 (since it's 8.5 live atm, as compared to PBE nerfed version). If they went Ferocity Tree instead, it goes to 19.1.

This seems fine, right?

WoonStruck5 votes

You miscalculated.

Most tanks have around 90 base armor.

So 210 (after BC) goes to 120 x .55 (LW is vs bonus armor only)->66+90=156 - 75 total lethality possible

That's 81 armor left over. That's nearly 75% of your armor being cut.

MissingKayo1 votes

Mea culpa, point still stands.

I see nothing wrong with that, do you? Seems fine, right?

Penns1 votes

I can agree with this, but idk if its too bad that ~3k hp champs with 2-3 half-offensive items actually die.

Did feel kind of BS that I got almost insta-deleted by a Rengar or a Graves as Fizz with item 1413 item 3748 item 3025 item 3047 tho... I thought I was tanky feelsbadman

Ahristocats10 votes

i found why board is bullshit actually, simply cause you see the same shit written everyday non-stop

Here let me enlight you on how the game works right now Shen good because he can be anywhere in the map which isa huge adventage because right now you can't play safe in this meta against shen Maokai Poppy retarded amount of damage in mid game, and both have tank steroid

all the champions you listed are pure garbage, working in low elo and stop being viable above master. They may work with their current kit in teamfight, but they're outclassed by many other pics in early game

it's not worth to pick a tank when you can pick other tanky champions that bring a massive snowball in early game

that's all

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8INVAl2,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2017-02-19T01:17:50.051+0000)

i found why board is bullshit actually, simply cause you see the same shit written everyday non-stop

Here let me enlight you on how the game works right now Shen good because he can be anywhere in the map which isa huge adventage because right now you can't play safe in this meta against shen Maokai Poppy retarded amount of damage in mid game, and both have tank steroid

all the champions you listed are pure garbage, working in low elo and stop being viable above master. They may work with their current kit in teamfight, but they're outclassed by many other pics

it's not worth to pick a tank when you can pick other tanky champions that bring a massive snowball in early game

that's all

I've never disputed that though. I totally agree that there's a rather large discrepancy between the strong meta tanks and the none meta tanks. But this applies to every class, not just tanks. However, that's also why I said I'm totally not opposed to seeing buffs across the board. I'm not a fan of the nerf cycle barring extreme cases. I'd rather see things buffed up, not nerfed down.

Ahristocats4 votes

{quoted}

I've never disputed that though. I totally agree that there's a rather large discrepancy between the strong meta tanks and the none meta tanks.

nice

{quoted}

But this applies to every class, not just tanks.

? you say class right? not role? cause tell me a single fucking class except marksmen and juggernauts where you see 2 champs picked? enchenters? lulu karma ivern janna assassins? talon zed kata lb kha rengar mages? lel

{quoted} However, that's also why I said I'm totally not opposed to seeing buffs across the board. I'm not a fan of the nerf cycle barring extreme cases. I'd rather see things buffed up, not nerfed down.

start to buff gragas sion tahm kench braum and taric

HateDaddy5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G8INVAl2,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-02-19T01:30:25.147+0000)

nice But this applies to every class, not just tanks.

? you say class right? not role? cause tell me a single fucking class except marksmen and juggernauts where you see 2 champs picked? enchenters? lulu karma ivern janna assassins? talon zed kata lb kha rengar mages? lel

In general I mean. That's been a bit out of whack lately barring mages/marksmen since they're typically always good.

However, that's also why I said I'm totally not opposed to seeing buffs across the board. I'm not a fan of the nerf cycle barring extreme cases. I'd rather see things buffed up, not nerfed down.

start to buff gragas sion tahm kench braum and taric

I don't know if Braum needs a buff tho. I mean, in a world where Zyra is strong, is it out of the norm to expect Braum to seemingly be underperforming? I also think they went too hard on Gragas. I don't know enough about Taric to offer a fair opinion aside from what stats suggest so I'll recuse myself from any discussion involving him past that point. I think Sion needs a few base stat buffs and he's a-ok. I dunno about Tahm either, I think Tahms kit is inherently flawed. He doesn't do much but what he does do, it feels unfair as fuck.

chipndip18 votes

No one will play tanks anyway. Because "I gotta carry this shit".

Tanks were never weak to begin with. Carries just make a bigger scene out of beating your ass than a tank does.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

No one will play tanks anyway. Because "I gotta carry this shit".

Tanks were never weak to begin with. Carries just make a bigger scene out of beating your ass than a tank does.

That's a very fair point to make. Tanks are great carries in low elo but pretty subpar the higher you go in terms of individual performance equating to victories. They're always good but that comes at the cost of being moderate reward/low risk. Nevertheless, I do believe player skill equals out regardless of what role you play and you'll likely climb to an elo you belong in.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

{quoted}

No one will play tanks anyway. Because "I gotta carry this shit".

Tanks were never weak to begin with. Carries just make a bigger scene out of beating your ass than a tank does.

Same thing as supports.

DoktorKaiser7 votes
  1. pro play =/= regular play, not even at challenger level

  2. the tanks picked in the LCS all have either extreme shields or damage or utility or all of it (Poppy , Maokai , Nautilus , Shen ) while other tanks are pure trash and unviable, not to mention tanks are impossible to be picked in the jungle, just top and also in the LCS they die pretty quickly to fed lethality abusers as well as in normal play

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

  1. pro play =/= regular play, not even at challenger level

  2. the tanks picked in the LCS all have either extreme shields or damage or utility or all of it (Poppy , Maokai , Nautilus , Shen ) while other tanks are pure trash and unviable, not to mention tanks are impossible to be picked in the jungle, just top and also in the LCS they die pretty quickly to fed lethality abusers as well as in normal play

Sorry, every metric we have completely disagrees with the idea of the tanks not in the LCS not being viable.

LankPants10 votes

No they don't, just stop using champ.gg.

https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Just take a look down that, tanks really aren't doing that great right now, especially in the jungle.

HateDaddy6 votes

{quoted}

No they don't, just stop using champ.gg.

https://na.op.gg/champion/statistics

Just take a look down that, tanks really aren't doing that great right now, especially in the jungle.

I think tank junglers are actually pretty weak because of the new jungle and almost all could stand to have their clears buffed. The early clears are just too unforgivable to them.

LankPants9 votes

That's true, but you can also make the same point for tank supports too. Once you get past a few good top laners the rest of the class is complete garbage. Yet despite this Riot nerfs tanks almost every patch.

The problem is that tanks are generally too weak on a class/item/mastery level with a few select outliers who are far too good as champions.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

That's true, but you can also make the same point for tank supports too. Once you get past a few good top laners the rest of the class is complete garbage. Yet despite this Riot nerfs tanks almost every patch.

The problem is that tanks are generally too weak on a class/item/mastery level with a few select outliers who are far too good as champions.

I don't know if they're really weak as a class though, I'm simply not willing to go that far. I believe tanks should be innately durable first and depend on itemization less. Many tanks do accomplish this but have something left to be desired in other areas (Sions base stats as an example). That's why I don't think tanks are innately weak across the board, many are simply in need of small buffs to bring that up to par. This goes back to my statement about preferring balance to buff up, not nerf down. Obviously there's exceptions but every class has suffered at some point or another because of the nerfing down cycle.

As for tank supports, I truly believe mage supports are the biggest thorns in their sides right now. I think Alistar definitely needs buffs though.

LankPants4 votes

I don't know if they're really weak as a class though, I'm simply not willing to go that far. I believe tanks should be innately durable first and depend on itemization less.

Then you end up with a purely early game/mid game class who's late game scaling is utterly non-existent. If you do that you'll never be able to end up with the frontline tanks in the late game who actually function like the current super tanks do now.

I think it's too valuable to have teamfight based tanks who actually function to shift more power to base stats.

I think the problems with tanks can mostly be fixed through pure itemisation. Items like Cinderhulk, Hunter's Talisman and Knight's Vow do need buffs.

There are certainly outliers who will need to be toned down after this, although I don't think they're too bad right now considering Maokai's nerfs on the PBE right now.

This goes back to my statement about preferring balance to buff up, not nerf down.

You realise that's literally what I'm suggesting? I'm pointing out that the majority of the class is quite weak and that because this is so wide spread the class can only be fixed with systematic changes.

ProfDrDeath1 votes

Sions base stats as an example

Just something to note here: Sion's base HP are relative low for a tank to allow Soul Furnace's HP gain to be more impactful. Regular tanks get 90-100 HP/lvl, whereas Sion gets 73. With only 10 CS/lvl as a laner or 2 jungle camps/lvl as a jungler, he gets the same amount of health as comparable tanks. CS scores above that, as well as kills and assists, let his HP skyrocket compare to his peers.

If he did not have the lower initial HP values, the amount of HP he'd get from Soul Furnace would need to be lowered drastically. However, with these values as they are, there is a higher margin of variability - on average games, Sion is comparably tanky to his peers. A good game sees him become significantly tankier, whereas putting in the continuous effort to shut him down from farming gets rewarded by Sion being squishier.

Another point, especially for jungle Sion: All HP gained from W counts as bonus HP. Meaning, it interacts rather well with Cinderhulk.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

Just something to note here: Sion's base HP are relative low for a tank to allow Soul Furnace's HP gain to be more impactful. Regular tanks get 90-100 HP/lvl, whereas Sion gets 73. With only 10 CS/lvl as a laner or 2 jungle camps/lvl as a jungler, he gets the same amount of health as comparable tanks. CS scores above that, as well as kills and assists, let his HP skyrocket compare to his peers.

If he did not have the lower initial HP values, the amount of HP he'd get from Soul Furnace would need to be lowered drastically. However, with these values as they are, there is a higher margin of variability - on average games, Sion is comparably tanky to his peers. A good game sees him become significantly tankier, whereas putting in the continuous effort to shut him down from farming gets rewarded by Sion being squishier.

Another point, especially for jungle Sion: All HP gained from W counts as bonus HP. Meaning, it interacts rather well with Cinderhulk.

Would you believe me if I totally forgot about his soul furnace passive. It's easy to forget he's one of the original infinte stackers

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Considering his shield scales with bonus health, this helps it scale even while you stack resistance items.

Rock MD7 votes

I don't think the argument for most is that tanks are weak. I think it's that tanks die too fast.

And they're not wrong. Everything dies too fast right now.

Spoofghoul2 votes

This and penetration stacking

And often seeing 5 damage roles

shit got out of hand

Latitoast5 votes

here comes the mage mains

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

here comes the mage mains

I am literally calculus.

Latitoast4 votes

{quoted}

I am literally calculus.

did you think they would even click the thread?

if they see tanks in the title they just downvote and move on

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

did you think they would even click the thread?

if they see tanks in the title they just downvote and move on

Idk, I think gameplay has quite a few reasonable posters, even tank mains. It's usually the silent masses that vote away. It's rather unfortunate.

SupaDevilJuice2 votes

{quoted}

Idk, I think gameplay has quite a few reasonable posters, even tank mains. It's usually the silent masses that vote away. It's rather unfortunate.

Well I'm here to upvote you, daddy!

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

I am literally calculus.

I personally though it was strange to call it a tank meta, it was just primarily Poppy and Maokai abusing various things and stomping however after COC nerfs and some stats nerfs both are no longer so hard to deal with.

A real tank meta is far more likely to start after the class update, as you wrote.

And in truth i do not belive lethality to be OP, it's the items you find it on.

Each item is cheap, offers AD, lethality, movespeed , mr or CDR. And then various passive's and actives that also are very powerful.

Cheap powerful items with powerful actives that synergize well with any AD stacking champion, i always knew this was going to turn out bad when i saw the items added and the buff to lethality itself pushed it over the edge.

Big Lincoln5 votes

but HateDaddy

what else can I circlejerk about for big upvotes? :'(

WoonStruck6 votes

######Anti-Quinn

######Jhin not being OP

######Mages

######Jhin good design

######'fuck shaco'

######'fuck yasuo'

######Riven such skill

######Riven easy to pick up

######Lethality OP

######meta is fucked

######[insert rework here]

######Any post regarding MM

######Game pacing

######[insert underplayed champ here]


There's a lot to be honest.

This is the best time to be a boards member :^)

SupaDevilJuice4 votes

Riven can stop the tanks!

HateDaddy9 votes

{quoted}

Riven can stop the tanks!

I'm pretty sure you're not a fucking virgin.

WoonStruck2 votes

You're right, no one would have the balls to call themselves a virgin if they were a virgin.

LegendmakerGX2 votes

{quoted}

You're right, no one would have the balls to call themselves a virgin if they were a virgin.

I AM PROUD TO BE A VIRGIN.

InivtesPreeze4 votes

LCS isn't the rest of us. Irrelevant and poor argument.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

But we need a tank meta and that will fix everything.

HateDaddy5 votes

{quoted}

But we need a tank meta and that will fix everything.

Balancing lethality will change quite a few things I'm sure.

Maddened King 4 votes

{quoted}

But we need a tank meta and that will fix everything.

I prefer the tank meta over whatever garbage meta we have going on now in solo queue. item 3814 item 3147 item 3142

NekoniClaws1 votes

I ended up running the math of an ADC's damage to Leona's base armor (since I main her), comparing a BF+Zeal to a Youmuus. I used Jinx as my sample as she's not got any additional multipliers that synergize with lethality.

[no pen: 0.67 (33% damage reduction) + 55% effective health (687) 1937 total health - damage per hit = 78.46 + crit every 5th - 21 hits for death (with boosted AS)

arpen: 0.74 (26% damge reduction) + 42.9% effective health (536) -1786 total health -damage per hit = 101.45 -18 hits for death]

I'd say it's better for poke? I usually only have Targon's brace before the youmuus shows up, usually on someone with a multiplier or some kind. I know squishies got it worse but tanking's my job.

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