Warwick nerf a kneejerk reaction?

Tusutaki·Dec 11, 2014·9 votes·1,879 views

Why did they nerf Warwick altogether when the Devourer item made him stupid strong? Nerfing the Devourer item was justifiable but why Warwick himself when he was never problematic before the new item?

49 Comments

QuephaDec 11, 20148 votes

he was never problematic before the new item?

false.

TusutakiDec 11, 20143 votes

Would you like to back that up then as to why that is?

QuephaDec 11, 20146 votes

{quoted} Would you like to back that up then as to why that is?

his winrate was already sky-high before the jungle changes and he had that winrate with zero skillshots, zero mobility aside from a situational ms boost, and zero cc aside from a long cooldown ultimate. he was basically already considered a top pick in solo queue and won games by not really doing anything but right-clicking the enemy and doing too much damage while being too tanky to be stopped. furthermore, the way his blood scent and hunter's call worked, any time his team starts to get ahead he basically shuts down all the options his opponents have by granting his allies a ton of vision of the enemies and a ton of AS to dominate team fights and quickly take objectives.

and in general, when warwick is strong that means he can just heal through any damage dealt to him so he can only be burst down, but he builds mostly tanky so that's also nigh-impossible.

TusutakiDec 11, 20142 votes

He had a moderate winrate bordering along the 50s and 51. He never did too much damage before the jungle items, he was always a champion that as a point and click ult/suppress that did mediocre damage if you build no offensive items which you almost never to until somewhere in late game.

Trynd, Xin, and Aatrox is also a right click type of champion but you dont see them being a problem that needed a nerf except for release Aatrox. And his Blood Scent doesnt give him vision, it just gives him a speed boost within a radius but as you said, he has no CC aside from his ult.

and in general, when warwick is strong that means he can just heal through any damage dealt to him so he can only be burst down, but he builds mostly tanky so that's also nigh-impossible.

Meanwhile Nasus, Trundle, and Vlad says hi while doing more damage and having more utility. There was no reason to nerf Warwick himself as in the jungle, he is heavily reliant on the blue buff and heavily vulnerable to counter jungle and counter ganks.

If the reason was because of jungle in its present state and how Warwick and self sustain junglers can comfortably jungle compared to the others, then thats a jungle problem that didnt allow much diversity compared to the old version.

The WhamboozlerDec 11, 20144 votes

Almost all of this is wrong. Warwick became a monster because of a lot of things, not just Devourer. Skirisher is scary on him by itself, as his ult automatically procs it 5 times. It also procs devourer five times, so that item alone pretty much tripled the damage of his ult. The ult that is ranged, targeted and comes with a fairly long suppress as well. It was fine when it was JUST a lockdown, but the new items made it HURT. A LOT.

That however, is not the only reason WW took one on the chin. Old jungle warwick had strengths and flaws. He had a lot of sustain, and stayed at full health in the jungle because of it. He also scaled REALLY well, and was very, VERY simple to play. He's point and click easy. His weaknesses where his sub-par ganks pre-6, his vulnerability to being kited, and the fact that he takes a while to farm up into a late-game powerhouse.

But the new jungle diminished a lot of those flaws by hitting his rival junglers HARD. Non-sustained junglers often get forced to B early... after three or four camps sometimes. Warwick's sustain keeps him from having to do this. That lack of lost time lets him get well ahead of the enemy jungler in level and gold. This makes him VERY risky to invade, as he is probably higher leveled than you AND has very high health while clearing. It also means he probably hits his "sweet spot" of level 6 before the enemy jungler. Few junglers have the health to gank early now anyways, so warwick's lack of aid for his lanes before he's level 6 matters less. The enemy junglers can rarely pressure his lanes hard while he's still busy farming. Now realize that failed ganks are FAR more punishing to junglers. Did Lee Sin wander top at level 3 and get seen by a ward? Well that wasted time hurts junglers more now than it did before. Sure, if you're good you can land an early lane kill still, but it's a risk. Warwick isn't a risk. Farm and you're scary. By one item and you do crazy damage with your ult. You can't miss your ult. He's idiot proof.

So yeah, WW needed a nerf. It's not just that he has insane synergy with one item, it's the fact that the new jungle invalidates a lot of his former flaws and it's biggest demands are the things he's strongest at. He lost a lot of his weak spots, leaving only a big, tanky monster that is insanely simple to play. Even with the nerf, he'll still be permaban for me. He's too safe, too simple and too scary if he's not put in his place... which is really hard to do now with how punishing the new jungle is. He could take another nerf and stay strong to be honest. You should pick WW because he's very safe in the clearing and scary is left to farm. He shouldn't do assassin-level damage on a targeted ability just because he bought a single item. That crap is too much.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20143 votes

Almost all of this is wrong.

not really... and wow no need to be an a-hole to the OP here. pre patch 4.20 warwick wasn't some monster champion that couldn't be dealt with, and to be honest he can easily be dealt with.

just because he is easy to play doesn't mean he needs a nerf otherwise Garen would be Riots number 1 priority. people learning the game need easy champions to learn on otherwise the community surrounding the game dies.

it takes warwick forever to clear his jungle. meaning if you clear it all, go back to buy your skirmishers, and gank once you are already late for catching your blue buff which warwick is very reliant on. so if you see warwick ganking go take his blue and he is crippled throughout the mid game. this also means that your laner can take your blue buff, and their laner doesn't get one. boom instant map pressure. if warwick is seen by a ward while ganking he is not only more prone to counter jugnling than many of his counterparts but it is still hard for him to get a kill. warwick is strong but any laner with map awareness will know to stay out of his ult range and hide under tower until he is gone. is warwick staying in his jungle all game farming it up, then gank lanes and get them fed. warwick has plenty of counterplay, you just have to have map awareness to take advantage of it.

warwick himself wasn't op. his interaction with skirmishers was ridiculous, but the nerf to skirmishers fixed that.

Sightless66Dec 11, 20141 votes

Warwick isn't as blue reliant as you seem to think. The mana regen from the new items is honestly enough for me to stay at near full mana throughout jungle clears, particularly once I get the first machete upgrade. I'm not also not sure what you're actually saying with "it takes warwick forever to clear his jungle. meaning if you clear it all, go back to buy your skirmishers, and gank once you are already late for catching your blue buff". I legitimately don't know what you are trying to say. Are you trying to say that Warwick clears slowly enough that after his first clear, it's already 7 minutes into the game? I'm sorry if that's wrong, but that's how it reads to me.

warwick is strong but any laner with map awareness will know to stay out of his ult range and hide under tower until he is gone.

This applies to any jungler and any gank. Warwick's level 6 ganks are much easier and more effective than many other champions, and there isn't anything that makes him any easier to avoid.

just because he is easy to play doesn't mean he needs a nerf

While this is technically true, it doesn't tell the whole story. Warwick has a massive amount of value tied up in a mechanic that you can't really avoid. If he gets in range of me (and he doesn't have a miserably hard time doing so), there isn't much I can do to stop his ultimate from screwing me. I can't cancel it without a teammate, I can't stop the damage at all no matter what, I can't do anything to outplay him. His ult has all his value, and his ult has very, very little counterplay. That's something that does necessitate that he not be the strongest champion in the game.

Warwick was reasonably powerful before the jungle changes, and then every change in the jungle favored him, even the changes that hurt his opponents. Itemization alone wasn't making Warwick ridiculous. The new jungle is helping out a lot there.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20142 votes

that's true they did buff many of the mana regen items, so maybe he isn't as blue reliant as he used to be.

the jungle creeps spawn at 1:55 + a full jungle roation of gromp, blue, wolves, wraiths, lizzard, golems will easily take you 4 min + 45 sec recall to buy and get back to a lane + 20 seconds to gank + 20 sec walking time back to his blue = 7:20. i suppose he cleared it second after gromp so it will respawn shortly but compare that to other junglers who don't have to power farm to get to level 6 to gank reasonably (which warwick still isn't at this point as long as he didn't leach too much xp off of the lane he ganked) then he's only got in one gank to other junglers 2 or 3. the other junglers don't need as much farm to gank successfully, meaning that warwicks lack of early pressure does still cost him.

This applies to any jungler and any gank

well, that was my point. you claimed (correct me if i'm wrong) that compared to other junglers warwick's ganking was risk free, but i think that a failed gank carries more risk for him as it does for other junglers because he is so reliant on farm to get to lv6 quickly.

as far as avoiding warwick, he's immobile so he is prone to kiting, qss and tenacity work against his ult, if he has nothing to life steal off of then he isn't super tanky, he is prone to hard cc, etc... he is not the strongest champion in the game and does have counterplay.

the new jungle may have helped warwick out in certain ways, but i think the nerf to his w was overkill. they almost halved it's duration which extremely slows his jungle clear speed and hurts his lifesteal ability and almost ruins his team fight potential.

Sightless66Dec 11, 20141 votes

that's true they did buff many of the mana regen items, so maybe he isn't as blue reliant as he used to be.

Machette regen is perfectly fine for keeping him 100% mana sustained. You'll need blue if you want to teamfight early, but you can farm endlessly at almost full mana. Denying a second blue will not hurt Warwick any more than it would hurt any other jungler.

well, that was my point. you claimed (correct me if i'm wrong) that compared to other junglers warwick's ganking was risk free, but i think that a failed gank carries more risk for him as it does for other junglers because he is so reliant on farm to get to lv6 quickly.

I wasn't the one who wrote the first couple things you responded to, so I didn't claim anything. However, I don't quite agree with you on him having more risk. There are two things I disagree with you on. The first thing is that Warwick doesn't have to gank pre-6. The increased risk for junglers in general means that gank pressure in general is lowered nowadays, giving him more room to farm freely to 6. Secondly, and more importantly, the low-risk factor was almost certainly referring to level 6, when his ganks are extremely low risk. He walks up, presses R to gapclose, and usually kills the person, and there is no dodging his ult except by seeing it coming, which can work against anyone. As far as ganks go, his level 6 ganks are about as low-risk as it gets.

he's immobile so he is prone to kiting, qss and tenacity work against his ult

Immobility is only something that happens after he jumps onto you, and his ultimate still does quite a bit of damage. As for QSS and tenacity, there are two things you should know. First, tenacity does not work on his ult. It does nothing against him. His ultimate is a suppression, and the key aspect of a suppression is that it can not be reduced in any way, shape or form except by disrupting the channel. QSS can disrupt the channel, but it can not actually stop the damage. Warwick's ultimate will always do full damage, which not only gives a substantial amount of burst, but usually lowers an enemy enough for his E to trigger.

So, while Warwick does have some counterplay, the element of his kit which contains by far the majority of his power has very little counterplay.

the new jungle may have helped warwick out in certain ways, but i think the nerf to his w was overkill. they almost halved it's duration which extremely slows his jungle clear speed and hurts his lifesteal ability and almost ruins his team fight potential.

I don't think it was overkill. Warwick was helped by almost all of the elements of the new jungle while most other junglers were harmed in some way. Even without devourer and skirmisher, he was significantly stronger than he was in season 4. Something had to give, and the speed of his clearing was a good place to hit. I don't think that this was an overnerf. I think we'll find that he will go down to the top 10-20 winrate bracket.

AMYS GRAVEDec 12, 20141 votes

I wasn't the one who wrote the first couple things you responded to, so I didn't claim anything.

my mistake :)

his post-6 ganks are certainly lower risk, i agree with you. but his pre-6 ganks are greater risk, and i think those can be the most important in the game.

i just checked the lol wicki and it says "Tenacity grants the user 35% crowd control reduction." but now that i think about it there are forms of cc that it doesn't effect, ww ult might be one of them.

QSS still works though and while it doesn't stop the damage, it does remove the cc effect for you but it does not remove the cc effect on ww. that means that when he ults you as long as the damage doesn't kill you you have a few seconds to get away before he can follow up.

ww does have a little counter play, and i think it would have been prudent for them to shift his power from his ult to his other abilities, but they also strongly nerfed his w which i think was unnecessary. so i guess agree to disagree but my guess is that he will fall substantially lower than the top 10-20 winrate bracket.

Sightless66Dec 12, 20141 votes

but now that i think about it there are forms of cc that it doesn't effect, ww ult might be one of them.

It absolutely is unaffected. The unaffected forms of crowd control are knockups and suppression. Suppression are Skarner ult, Warwick ult, Malz ult, and Urgot ult. You also can't use any summoner spells while you are suppressed, so no barrier, heal, or even smite (useful when contesting baron/dragon).

ww does have a little counter play,

Everything has a little. Warwick just has little compared to most anyone else.

my guess is that he will fall substantially lower than the top 10-20 winrate bracket.

Maybe. He's still 12th today, but that data might be off due to the recent patch. I don't expect it to fall much further. We'll see in a week or so. At this point, there is nothing to do but wait.

Learn 2 SwimDec 11, 20144 votes

Because Warwick is not named Lee Sin.

Balderdash1000Dec 11, 20142 votes

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Surr20plzDec 11, 20144 votes

They should not have nerfed warwick if they were already going to nerf the skirmishers and devourer. The fact that Skirmisher no longer does on hit true damage was enough to fix the problem.

There should have been nothing after that.

OnegarionDec 11, 20141 votes

No they should have nerfed him. Devourers isn't broken on other champs like WW so why nerf 1 item hard because only 1 champ is able to easily abuse it? That doesn't make any sense.

Also WW had other problems as well that weren't item related and most of them stem from him being super safe and able to sustain in the jungle. He can come out with full health and not really care about what you think. He is the new udyr from the old jungle. AFK farm and come out a monster, tanky, and hitting like a truck.

LightschampionDec 11, 20141 votes

They nerfed him and his items. How is that fair>?

OnegarionDec 11, 20141 votes

Its like you didn't read what I said. It wasn't just the item that made him strong. I'm going to post another person response to this.

Almost all of this is wrong. Warwick became a monster because of a lot of things, not just Devourer. Skirisher is scary on him by itself, as his ult automatically procs it 5 times. It also procs devourer five times, so that item alone pretty much tripled the damage of his ult. The ult that is ranged, targeted and comes with a fairly long suppress as well. It was fine when it was JUST a lockdown, but the new items made it HURT. A LOT.

That however, is not the only reason WW took one on the chin. Old jungle warwick had strengths and flaws. He had a lot of sustain, and stayed at full health in the jungle because of it. He also scaled REALLY well, and was very, VERY simple to play. He's point and click easy. His weaknesses where his sub-par ganks pre-6, his vulnerability to being kited, and the fact that he takes a while to farm up into a late-game powerhouse.

But the new jungle diminished a lot of those flaws by hitting his rival junglers HARD. Non-sustained junglers often get forced to B early... after three or four camps sometimes. Warwick's sustain keeps him from having to do this. That lack of lost time lets him get well ahead of the enemy jungler in level and gold. This makes him VERY risky to invade, as he is probably higher leveled than you AND has very high health while clearing. It also means he probably hits his "sweet spot" of level 6 before the enemy jungler. Few junglers have the health to gank early now anyways, so warwick's lack of aid for his lanes before he's level 6 matters less. The enemy junglers can rarely pressure his lanes hard while he's still busy farming. Now realize that failed ganks are FAR more punishing to junglers. Did Lee Sin wander top at level 3 and get seen by a ward? Well that wasted time hurts junglers more now than it did before. Sure, if you're good you can land an early lane kill still, but it's a risk. Warwick isn't a risk. Farm and you're scary. By one item and you do crazy damage with your ult. You can't miss your ult. He's idiot proof.

So yeah, WW needed a nerf. It's not just that he has insane synergy with one item, it's the fact that the new jungle invalidates a lot of his former flaws and it's biggest demands are the things he's strongest at. He lost a lot of his weak spots, leaving only a big, tanky monster that is insanely simple to play. Even with the nerf, he'll still be permaban for me. He's too safe, too simple and too scary if he's not put in his place... which is really hard to do now with how punishing the new jungle is. He could take another nerf and stay strong to be honest. You should pick WW because he's very safe in the clearing and scary is left to farm. He shouldn't do assassin-level damage on a targeted ability just because he bought a single item. That crap is too much.

If this doesn't explain to you nothing will and this is over.

AMYS GRAVEDec 15, 20141 votes

there is no need to repost a response that is on this thread out of context. if people are reading this thread they will find that easily enough.

OnegarionDec 16, 20141 votes

not easily enough. Sometimes those lower posts especially those on other comments deep down don't get seen by anyone and the person I'm talking to clearly hasn't read it or this would be a different discussion.

SartheroDec 11, 20141 votes

Devourers and Skirmishers smite wasn't broken on him... they were broken on his ult. There are several other heavy AS junglers that take just as good advantage of that combo with their AA's as Warwick.

OnegarionDec 11, 20142 votes

Last I checked his ult is part of...him. Making it broken on him.

No, no other heavy AS jungler can abuse it like WW. THe others have to actually auto attack you. WW gets 5 free procs of both the smite damage and the devourers PLUS any other on hit items he has for free without the opponent being able to do anything. No other champ gets 5 free attacks on you procing every on hit item they have.

TusutakiDec 12, 20142 votes

So what point do you have then? Yi has a point and click blink attack that allows you to be nontargetable and blinks you to the target and an E that gives you free true damage per hit. The Skirmisher/Devourer made Warwick's ult broken but also made heavy AS junglers extremely strong. Remember release Feral Flare and how it made several AS junglers extremely strong? None of the AS junglers were nerfed that time and only the item was. So why is it that this time Warwick is a special case?

Oh and

No other champ gets 5 free attacks on you procing every on hit item they have.

Fiora says hi.

OnegarionDec 12, 20141 votes

The point your missing is that Yi doesn't get a for sure 5 procs that you can't stop. He uses his Q to get to you like any other gap closer, but it doesn't proc on hit effects and doesn't mean you are for sure going to get them or any procs. He still has to keep with you and hit you. Its not 5 hits for nothing or hitting 1 button that you can't be stopped at.

FF was nerfed because it gave to much sustain for doing nothing but afk farm. It was nerfed because you had no interaction with anyone and would just AFK farm and come out strong. You can't do the same with Devourers. You can't AFK farm and come out a monster on most champs like you could with FF. Its not the same item at all and is weaker than FF was at every point.

FF was nerfed over champs because it was extremely strong on everyone while Devourers isn't.

TusutakiDec 12, 20142 votes

FF was nerfed over champs because it was extremely strong on everyone while Devourers isn't.

Yeah no. Only difference is when you finish Devourer and Feral Flare.

FF was nerfed because it gave to much sustain for doing nothing but afk farm. It was nerfed because you had no interaction with anyone and would just AFK farm and come out strong.

It wasnt nerfed because it gave too much sustain. It was nerfed because it did way too much damage by the time it was completed and cleared camps like it was nothing. Feral Flare you need to farm large creeps to get enough stacks inorder to transform it. Devourer you can just buy and go straight into ganking.

You can't do the same with Devourers.

They're almost exactly the same items. Both almost deals the exact same damage when completed. Both having the same stacking skills. They both works almost exactly the same way I mean holy hell just read the stats/patch notes yourself and compare the numbers. In reality Devourer is stronger in a sense that you have to build it with a jungle item that gives you a smite champion ability and it finishes way earlier. Also, every AS oriented jungler has a form of self sustain except for Shaco.

Surr20plzDec 15, 20141 votes

{quoted} No they should have nerfed him. Devourers isn't broken on other champs like WW so why nerf 1 item hard because only 1 champ is able to easily abuse it? That doesn't make any sense.

Also WW had other problems as well that weren't item related and most of them stem from him being super safe and able to sustain in the jungle. He can come out with full health and not really care about what you think. He is the new udyr from the old jungle. AFK farm and come out a monster, tanky, and hitting like a truck.

The devourer nerf was uneeded, the skirmisher was it was op and several champs. They did not need to nerf WW himself. Him sustaining in the jungle is what he's always done. It's what all sustain junglers do, by your flawed logic all sustain junglers should lose their sustain.

That's crap.

OnegarionDec 15, 20141 votes

You seem to miss the part that most sustain junglers couldn't and can't come out full health. So its not flawed logic if you actually look that what is being talked about.

Leblancs BoobDec 11, 20142 votes

The new jungle destroys every other jungler. Warwick is the only one that can actually clear and sustain enough to gank

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

by the time he has cleared though his buffs are almost back up. he doesn't have time to gank if he wants to stay farmed up and not be counter-jungled.

Linna ExcelDec 11, 20142 votes

Warwick's sustain is too good for the new jungle. He can basically jungle until he can afford a finished jungling item. While devourer is good on him, the nerf to it is going to hit everyone who bought that upgrade as well, not just WW.

DurzakaDec 11, 20142 votes

Because he was ripping apart the new jungle with his sustain.

He could literally clear his double buffs, and still have full HP, without using any health pots. Thats how strong he was.

He needed some combat downside for such amazing clearing.

TusutakiDec 11, 20141 votes

Are we talking about old jungle or the current one? The old jungle allowed a lot of champs to clear both buffs without much trouble and still having the ability to gank. The new jungle almost makes it impossible heavily favoring selfsustain champs. And amazing clearing? His clearing is on par with Shen and even Taric jungle clears faster than him without the jungle item.

DurzakaDec 11, 20142 votes

{quoted} Are we talking about old jungle or the current one? The old jungle allowed a lot of champs to clear both buffs without much trouble and still having the ability to gank. The new jungle almost makes it impossible heavily favoring selfsustain champs. And amazing clearing? His clearing is on par with Shen and even Taric jungle clears faster than him without the jungle item.

The new jungle...

His clearing is amazing because he can do it and stay at full fucking hp. It could take twice as long, and it would still be better than clearing without enough HP to gank someone.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

by the time he clears he doesn't have enough time to buy the skirmishers and go gank before his buffs come back up and he has to clear again. he has safe, but incredibly slow clears. this means that if he tries to gank more than once he can be counter jungled pretty easily. that when combined with his immobility when his ult is down, combined with the nerf to his ult in patch 4.20, combined with the nerf to skirmishers meant at the very least they didn't have to nerf his w, and i think they overdid it with his ult.

CaptnJakSparrowDec 11, 20141 votes

You guys do know Warwick is still stronger than he was in season 4, and 3. He can't ohko anymore. But, you can 2ko with how I'm currently building him. ((2ko = ult, Q.)) They took 100 to 75 damage off of his ult, but then factoring resistances and everything. They really only took off a little bit of damage. But, in all actuality. With the current jungle set up. Warwick actually does around 250 more damage than he once did.

Bundy HusseinDec 15, 20142 votes

My biggest beef is with his W nerf! That was BS! The other stuff was fine, but why take 40% off of that ability? That's just doing too much. Warwick was my first main, and i mainly used him in the top lane, but they destroyed top lane ww. Just because he's really good in one place with one specific item they nerf abilities that really didn't have anything to do with what people were complaining about. Makes no sense.

Everyone whines about Lee Sin constantly but nothing. Whine about warwick, a character who is rarely seen before some stupid item made his ult intolerable, for 3 days and they nerf him more than they've probably ever done to any character. That's fair.

Knight DevoutDec 11, 20141 votes

it's not simply "muh devourer". Infinite Duress applies on hit effects. It was Devourer+Skirmisher Sabre+from midgame onward Botrk or Wit's End. Infinite Duress had 5 ticks, so, just by that alone, you had 5 applications of Devourer, 5 of Challenging Smite, and 5 of Botrk/Wit's end. Assuming a level 11 WW with a moderate devourer farm, that was around 250 magic damage+300 magic damage+185 true damage. Wit's end would add 210 magic damage, while Botrk would add 8%current health 5 times. That's 38,4% of current health, though the damage from the other sources lower that to maybe 30%-25%

TusutakiDec 11, 20141 votes

Except thats what made Warwick pretty much broken. 2250 item that automatically gives you 50 magic damage per hit and stacks along with Skirmisher that applies 20-30 true damage each hit by the time you could afford it. Just the base Skirmisher/Devourer out damages pre nerf Warwick rank 2 ult. Now imagine that damage being applied to you when you both are around lvl9 with his rank 1 ult. Thats stupidly insane. It made his early and mid game way too damn strong.

Before the new jungle item, he was just a walking ult that suppress. With the Devourer, it made him too strong way early on and kills almost anybody instantly when he first completes it.

SouL1essDec 11, 20141 votes

They didn't nerf Warwick's sustain, so technically not a knee-jerk reaction.

SartheroDec 11, 20142 votes

They indirectly nerfed his "jungle sustain" tho. His clear speed was already very slow, and now that they also nerfed the duration of his W, his clear speed is going to be EVEN SLOWER and he is going to be taking more damage from jungle mobs.

OnegarionDec 11, 20141 votes

Yet he will still come out with full health. Not really seeing an issue here.

SartheroDec 11, 20141 votes

He may not come out of his first clear with full health and no pots anymore, I can't confirm yet since I haven't played it or seen videos since 4.21. But he is going to take significantly more damage on his first clear with the nerf to his W.

This isn't really a big issue anyways, I was just making the point that his sustain actually WAS nerfed a little with the shortened duration of Hunter's Call. Less AS = Less Sustain. As I said above though, the real issue was just the OP Devourer + Skirmishers Smite combo with his ult.

OnegarionDec 11, 20141 votes

I haven't playedhim on 4.21 either, but he will still come out much healthier than others and especially after he gets a couple items.

It is a nerf, but its not even a big deal for WW since his sustain is so high already. Just means he might have to use 1 pot now lol

Sightless66Dec 11, 20141 votes

He may not come out of his first clear with full health and no pots anymore

I've played him on the PBE, so I can confirm that he can get out of a first clear with full health and no pots used, starting either at golems or the gromp. It takes him a little longer to get back to full health after the first 2 camps, but once he does, he stays there.

SartheroDec 11, 20141 votes

They should have nerfed how his ult interacted with skirmishers smite. Devourer and Skirmishers was the real problem, and this was evident by the fact that top lane WW /w smite was a thing... and a terribly OP thing. They already appropriately nerfed Devourer, they should have just changed the way his ult interacted with skirmishers smite (by ignoring it, or making skirmishes smite affect only individual AA) and left his ult damage alone. Because now that was just another nerf on plain old top lane WW, which didn't really need a nerf. Now there is even less reason to ever play WW outside the jungle...

SmokingPuffinDec 11, 20141 votes

Not a knee jerk reaction. -15 starting Devourer stacks and no other changes would still make Warwick obviously the best jungler.

The design shift from "you have to be good at ganking at 3" to "sustain matters, gank less, farm more" is a huge boon for Warwick, who was already average to good in the old jungle.

StephenizgodDec 11, 20141 votes

Maybe they nerfed him a bit too much, mostly with the W nerf. They should have added something like For 6 seconds, Warwick increases his attack speed and increases the attack speeds of all allies within range by half as much. Warwick adds 1 second to Hunters Call with each basic attack against Large or Epic Monsters to a maximum of 10 seconds. This effect will end upon hitting enemy champion or minions. So he can keep it up for another 4 seconds while jungling but not while laning or ganking.

The ult nerf i felt was fair, the main point of his Ult is to hold an enemy in place not really to instaburst them.

I agree with nerfing him AND the Devourer and Skirmisher items because they were really only overpowered on WW, not so much on other junglers so nerfing only them would still leave WW at the top of the jungle food chain.