Counter jungling doesn't seem as..rewarding anymore

Trash MammaI··50 votes·3,883 views

When I play someone like Shaco or Udyr and I steal 2-3 camps by time I recall and clear 1 camp in my jungle the enemy has already caught up to my level if not passed it.

Maybe a good buff for poachers knife will be for it to grant double exp for killing it with smite to make it more rewarding for people who like to counter jungle.

It's to the point that unless im getting a kill I hardly ever care to step foot into the enemies jungle anymore. There's just no point.

44 Comments

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb15 votes

There's no way this holds true. The camps are on a 1:40 respawn. If you just take the big monsters out of a side, they get a fraction of what they should have. Your level growth will be reduced since being up in levels results in lower xp growth when taking jungle camps, but your gold should be far above them. Trust me, getting counter-jungled is crippling.

Double XP for killing with smite in the enemy jungle is a bad idea. That would create a ton of abuse cases, and in cases of people swaping entire jungle sides, would allow for junglers to outlevel solo lanes.

RogueWill4 votes

As a fellow jungler, getting counter-jungled is crippling for both sides, the one stealing the camps and the one with the camps getting stolen. Unless you are also able to kill the enemy jungler, then counterjungling becomes really rewarding. So the reason he is by the same level is simply because he is fallign behind as well...

However is still high risk, as if you die on the enemy jungle, it will cripple you considerably and boost your opponent jungler.

coppinslinger2 votes

Basically this. Especially if you are counterjungling in the pre-5 minute period where your time in the jungle is really precious to either powerfarm till 6 or get a strong early gank off. Walking all the way across the river and trying not to get collapsed on, gambling that the enemy's camps will be up and hoping to god you'll get lucky and catch them low. Worst case scenario you die or waste flash, average case scenario, you get maybe 1 camp, but not even full XP or gold since you leave a little one.

Counterjungling can be oppressive, but only as a "win-more" strategy. If your lanes are winning, its really easy to go and invade the enemy jungler because you can count on the enemy laners being pushed into tower, your laners responding first to help, and winning a 2v2 or 3v3 if it comes down to it.

Counterjungling right now is NOT an effective strategy by which to consistently establish firm leads, its just a way to snowball leads that your team has already accumulated.

Apollocliptic1 votes

I would agree on the most part about counter jungling. If you leave behind small monsters, you gain less experience too, but if you take everything, sometimes the monsters respawn before the enemy jungler get around to them (like VI who tends to gank early then head to other camps).

I have been counter jungled, but unless they take Red or Blu, it rarely makes a difference to my game. I still get hurt more if an ally jungles (usually an ally takes my jungle AND I get counter jungle'd and the ally then complains I don't gank :/)

There's so many camps now, it's easy to make up for lost exp, and cycle around to let lost camps respawn. Counter jungling is only effective if: a) you get a kill or very good ganks (coming from enemy jungle you often find blind spots)

b) you take multiple camps - which is dangerous as you extend your time there and are more likely to get caught low, you really only want to do this WHILE you have eyes on all enemies, then you can clean up everything

c) taking the enemy big buffs

d) very early game, successful counter jungling will give you a strong lead, but most of the time laners' will cover jungle and drop some free wards, so it's still very risky I find that if I successuly counter jungle and then gank, enemy jungler will gank too (and we'll still be near same level) but their timing will be better because they didn't lose as much hp farming so they are just waiting for you) I prefer to farm their jungle, then predictively farm my own. Sometimes after stealing a red, an enemy just steals yours (especially if you get seen by someone hiding in brush or a ward) getting your jungle too will force them to gank prematurely, or waste time trolling your jungle looking for camps or you at low level, this REALLY puts them behind. Making sure your team know that you've stolen the enemy jungle and to watch out for early ganks is important too :D

rebound29 votes

Poacher's Knife is such a sad item. Riot actually had to acknowledge that it wasn't just there to fill the gap and give us 4 jungle items instead of 3. It really needs some serious buffs if it ever wants to see some actual play.

Apollocliptic1 votes

One use for poachers knife that I have done, (I don't counter jungle often, but the few times I have I've utilised this) is to fight in the enemy jungle (or if you get caught) just just quickly smite something and run. Timing that speed buff can be nice, but it's tricky and rare to get the timing right.

And easier one is fighting an enemy near red buff (this has gotten me kills a few times) they are ahead and think they will win, just when you know they are fully commited, smite red for the HP burst and keep fighting, the sudden jump in your hp will often scare them into running, but if you're timing is good then it's already too late :D

On a side note, often as a support/tank, when caught in the jungle, I'll often run to baron and engage it. If I know I can't escape, you can often severely damage your opponent by forcing them to kill you while the Baron is killing them (and as a tank, your survivability is much higher) Even if you don't get the baron kill, you can force you opponent to return, or to even lose the next fight they jump in to.

Finally, just because I remembered it, I once killed a fleeing shaco who jumped over the drake wall while counter jungling. I was Maokai and I just a sapling on the drake, the Drake then killed shaco :D I have repeated this tactic many times. I have rarely gotten kills with it, but it's a nice deterrent for dealing extra damage, or you can follow the dragon to see which way your enemy fled :D (preventing passives from triggering like mobi boots or Garens healing)

Squidblimp3 votes

How about smiting the enemy camp with Poacher's knife reduces the camp's damage to you and reduces its armor, and then gives you bonus gold and experience as well as the speed boost? This would make counterjungling faster and safer and more rewarding, but you would lose out on the other smite bonuses as compensation.

The Real Mugatu1 votes

I think that Riot has a plan to rework poachers as it is clearly in a bad place. I bought it a few times when they first released it and it hardly gives you an advantage, especially now that they added the stacking smite charges.

I like your idea Squidblimp about somehow increasing the speed of the clear when you counter jungle with poachers - might make it actually a reasonable purchase.

Freljordan1 votes

yeah, like honestly item 3713 is better than item 3711 for counterjungling, you clear the camp about 4000X faster and you get hp/mana back.

IcyPepper3 votes

When an jungler counterjungles and steals all my farm:

Me: "Oh darn, guess I'll have to gank more and snowball my team further."

Rinky Dinky3 votes

Denying gromp or chicken's is actually kinda huge.

Spacesuit Spiff3 votes

A couple reasons for this:

-With the longer respawns, you can't be certain to even find camps when you go to the enemy jungle -The red/blue buffs aren't very impactful anymore -Jungle exp is skewed so that you're pretty much going to be 1-2 levels below the solo laners regardless if you've cleared 5 camps or 10. The days of killing an Amumu twice and being level 9 when he finally gets his ult are over.

TenSlashTen2 votes

yeah its pretty fucking worthless. Thank riot for ruining counter junglers like shaco lol

you basically only steal the buff to deny the passive from the enemy jungler and piss him off. Not actually get exp to out level or anything useful.

Just to piss them off and hope they afk or something absurd like that.

Stole an udyrs red. ganked top. Udyr was level 4 after I killed their top and I wasn't even level 4 yet.

Kappa

Migrañaboy2 votes

How about giving smite a long range effect? like looking at a selected enemy camp ala blue ward and also apply some sort of debuff. This would promote invading. Also the debuff could work as a visible mark, allowing to the enemy jungler to defend this camp or getting psychologically threatened.

Also how about if you reveal and find enemy champion in said camp? White smite granting you vision of that champion for some time or when exiting his jungle, just like wolf spirit.

Edit: yes, I already opened a thread stating this idea, down voted and ignored with no feedback. t_t

PickleBabah2 votes

I was thinking that Poacher's Knife could give bonus gold flat gold upon killing a jungle monster in the enemy's jungle. (Flat gold so that it would be more encouraging to draw attention to mid lane because wraiths have the most camps and are the closest the mid)

Edit: This, or upon smiting and killing a large monster, gain all of the gold and experience that killing the smaller monsters would give you. Killing them again does not grant neither benefit - this would make it so that you don't have to clear to get benefits and just lower and smite right away

Dorans Hat1 votes

I like the edit idea

Erockandroll1 votes

I have heard of this problem with counter Jungling because camps don't level until they respawn. That said, Hearing these problems make me wonder if these camps are being full cleared, or if you leave one, preventing them from respawning.

Poacher's knife needs increased single target damage, increase the clear speed of the smite, but with out stepping on the toes of Ranger's trail Blazer. ( which is suppose to be the major fast clear item.)

DarkFaun Fortes1 votes

I acctually take trail blazer when I counter. Clears faster, So I get out faster.

ManSquid3 votes

Poachers Knife leaves a poachers ward at smite cast location (reveals enemy jungler for 5? seconds when ward trap is sprung and disappears)

This gives your team a huge extra bonus in map control and caters exactly to what a counter jungler is trying to do, at the sacrifice of those other jungle items

Poachers ward would have not dissipate fog of war, it would just reveal the location of the jungler for a set time kind of like an old school nidalee trap but with no damage and large radius.

DarkFaun Fortes1 votes

it dose!??!?!?! I've never seen this!

Apollocliptic1 votes

I was thinking that, then maybe it was just a "suggestion" either that or people don't use poachers knife often enough for it to be noticed :P

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

Only problem with that is that if top laners with smite get ahead they will buy poachers knife and be able to carry the entire game with the experience advantage

KingKong23501 votes

at least they aren't buying skirmishers smite and winning every duel/trade

NinjaFifer1 votes

Don't worry, that won't last too long. Even the pros are saying that the only reason smite is being brought into top lane is because Cinderhulk is such an OP item. Riot will nerf it before too long.

Citation: http://na.lolesports.com/articles/top-lane-terror-smitetp-strategy-balls-and-jack

Cenobite Azaziel1 votes

{quoted}

Don't worry, that won't last too long. Even the pros are saying that the only reason smite is being brought into top lane is because Cinderhulk is such an OP item. Riot will nerf it before too long.

Citation: http://na.lolesports.com/articles/top-lane-terror-smitetp-strategy-balls-and-jack

I like how cinder hulk is BETTER for the top laner than the jungler, since the top will get ahead in lvl and gold...

NinjaFifer1 votes

Not to mention that the top laner will have more gold to put towards health to get more advantage out of that +25% passive.

Svddenly1 votes

item 3711 Dafuq is dis piece o shit? Never heard of it.

PickleBabah1 votes

Exactly item 3713 is better for clearing your own, jungle sustain, and even counter jungling.

Dandymann1 votes

Go back to breaking their camps and kill them when they enter your jungle

GundayMonday1 votes

What if poacher's knife had Zilean exp gain passive in the enemy jungle?

Sir Yamazuki1 votes

You counter jungle so they fall behind on gold, not really experience, since even junglers who only gank would keep up on experience. I've had games that I jungled where the only camp I killed was the 1st one but never fell behind on levels really.

Fargo791 votes

anyone know how long it take for the jungle camps buffs to reset?? to my knowledge the 1st smite will take the buffs the camps have to offer.. (Raptors give vision of wards, Toad gives poison thornmail, etc) but what if you even just smited the large monster to steal the buffs from it taking away the enemy champ to get these small and great buffs?? any thoughts???

Occams Raiser1 votes

It leaves room for higher level play in the teamwork department. Stealing his stuff isn't good enough. You must also deny him a way back in. Higher team play like warding and pushing out of his own jungle and not into yours seems like a possible plan of attack. It not it seems like you to are playing a game of ring around the rosie with each others jungle and gank routes.

Dengeden1 votes

It's almost like Riot did that on purpose.. ^_^ Good idea with the poacher's change doe. When I counter jungle, I make it a point to be as annoying as possible. Best case scenario: I bait the enemy laners into wasting time chasing me.

Worst Mid Ever1 votes

a shaco main wouldn't really understand the importance of the razorbeak and gromp smite passives, or how low you get in the new jungle regardless of how good your leash was or how good your champions clear is

if you want to get rewarded for counterjungling just go your red to their blue for a free kill as any decent early game champion, even vs a lee or j4, recall, do your blue while they take their red then countergank their first gank, free win in low elo

Trash MammaI1 votes

Typically I do get FB after grabbing my first buff and running to theirs..its just so easy to do it since nobody in silver wards. After which I take whatever the other camp is there (depending on if anybody comes or not to sstop me) then run back to my 2nd buff (or their 2nd buff if they're someone like evelynn) unless I kill them there they always tend to catch up to me insanely fast..I dont get it. Though yea I don't usually smite gromp so I probably dont get it as muc as I think

YOU BEEN WARNED1 votes

While I agree with you that it doesn't feel as successful, think how oppressive and frustrating it is to deal with. Normally counterjungling succeeds when the counterjungler's team is already winning, making the action the luxury of being a douchebag for the most part.

Currently it's about taking the appropriate camp ( smiting his krugs so ww clears slower, taking gromp from that sejuani; getting wolf vision before dragon and so forth )

It's rewarding, difficult; but mostly depends on your team winning. That's why counterjungling isn't that big of a thing and probably shouldn't be unless a team snowball countermeasure is taken. :|

revliledpembroke1 votes

Good. I hate being counter-jungled. Maybe now I can sit in my own jungle and not have to wander into the enemy jungle to steal their blue while they take mine

Thresh 2 Fresh1 votes

I dont agree with double exp, but extra exp for smiting an enemy camp would be nice. And maybe only up to lvl 6 so you cant snowball out of control. It would make poachers knife a decent choice. Maybe it could add extra smite power as well but only for enemy camps. Like 50 bonus power for smiting neutral monster in the enemy jungle with poachers knife.

DillPickleOfDoom1 votes

Alright, I think counter jungling is rewarding, because now people start gromp or krugs, if they start gromp you can usually tell, and gromp + blue does some damage on you unless you have some sort of sustain (tryndamere q etc.) So if you the enemy plays shaco lets say like you said in your post, you stack your boxes on red, q over the dragon pit then go over to there blue. They will be low health and blue will be around 1k hp if you do this as fast as possible, but if you mess up and miss that 0:56.5 box then it will be at 200ish hp. So boom you get there blue and a kill. Now you own that enemy jungler untill they buy a frozen heart and then maybe they can duel. So now you back get a poachers knife and run to there red jungle, chances are they will be either at your blue if they really need it, or there red, so you go and kill them again then take another camp. You just created a snowball, and will win early game for the most part, now you just gank and keep that pressure on the jungler.

Trash MammaI1 votes

That's my basic strategy and I tend to grab wolf (or raptor) and leave 1 small one. By time I do that though and get to my side im still only level 2 even if I don't leave 1 small camp.

It just doesn't seem like you get as much out of it as you use to. Before the new jungle if you invaded someone or killed them early on in the jungle you were able to constantly do that and keep them down if played right. Now when you do it they can take 1-2 camps and be caught up in no time

Champion Skin1 votes

The thing is that...

1 you get much more exp from the jungle if you are under leveled (compared to average).. this makes it harder to get ahead in exp and also makes it easier to catch up if you are behind

2 well you don't need the buff camps anymore... before if they got stolen you were doomed... now well most camps give as much exp and gold and such so you aren't really that screwed anymore

High51 votes

Go kill all the noob Vi's. She's a slow build amd it keeps her from ganking you.

If you're nice, bring a friend and level together. Lane swaps work for a reason.

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