Pretty surprised we're not getting an Annie rework tbh

The Bearded Bard·Jan 23, 2016·23 votes·1,928 views

Not only is her kit super outdated and complained about regularly, it also really doesn't fit with her theme at all.

Annie 'The Dark Child' who was born of Grey Order founders Gregori 'Gray Warlock' Hastur and Amoline the Shadow Witch, born in the Voodoo Lands is a master of... fire abilities? Nothing in her lore suggests fire at all. Her name is the 'Dark Child', her parents created the 'Grey Order' and their nicknames were the 'Grey Warlock' and the 'Shadow Witch'. She captured the will of a Shadow Bear and transfigured it into the teddy bear 'Tibbers' we know of today.

I say again, why is Annie a fire mage?????

Random fire magic aside, let's take a look at her passive.

Passive: Pyromania: After casting four abilities, Annie's next damaging ability stuns the target.

WHY. What does Pyromania have anything to do with stunning??? Zero sense.

I understand that this is a videogame and that gameplay and lore are two different things and usually don't reflect each other, but usually champions have a theme that reflects both their lore and their gameplay. Annie has a fire theme gameplay wise, and a shadowy darkness theme every where else, including in her own damn title.

51 Comments

QuephaJan 23, 20164 votes

I'm kinda surprised too but even with how it feels like there's little counterplay to the kit there is surprising depth. Her passive creates obvious windows of power and weakness that Annie has a lot of agency over, but will still eventually call for her to open herself up at some point. There are brief cast times to her W and R that give mobile champions a chance to respond to her if they can guess when she will cast her abilities. She's very threatening when in range but her range is not that impressive and sending the right team mate in first who can survive her burst basically means her doom.

Despite her seemingly simple kit, Anniebot notably achieved challenger by maining Annie in all roles and lanes.

I totally disagree with you on all your complaints related to flavor. Fire is a very frightening thing and a child fascinated by it is very creepy, Firestarter is a well known book that uses this concept and Annie's backstory was basically ripped from its pages. Fire spells associated with stuns seems appropriate if you've ever felt a gust of hot air from a fire that immediately made you shut your eyes and recoil without even thinking about it, and the way the passive works creates this amazing rhythm to her spellcasting that makes you feel like a pyromaniac in that you watch your little spells go off, then feel a big one coming and start searching for something (a group of enemy squishies) that will be TRULY beautiful to watch burn to the ground.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20165 votes

Beats me. She seems to be immune to significant nerfs despite standing for what Riot deems unfun, binary and unhealthy design more than any other champion reworked thus far.

{quoted}

. There are brief cast times to her W and R that give mobile champions a chance to respond to her if they can guess when she will cast her abilities.

If their mobility consists of a blink and if they have 0 ping with god-like reflexes, maybe.

Also, I'd be inclined to agree to your "obvious windows of threat and weakness" part if she couldn't EW into nothingness while Q is mid-air to turn the in-flight Q into a stun (and did I mention the Q is point and click to begin with, so you were screwed the moment you stepped into her range?), which means even 2-stacks Annie is to be treated as a "threat".

At this point she's a threat no matter what. No timer on passive is also somewhat balanced mid lane because she must control the creep wave, but downright broken and obnoxious bot lane.

Overall she's extremely oppressive when she has any advantage on you because she cannot be outplayed. If she can mathematically kill you with RWQ, the moment you are in range of R, you die whenever she decides.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T01:35:43.870+0000)

If their mobility consists of a blink and if they have 0 ping with god-like reflexes, maybe

Street fighter 3's metagame involved 'parries' which were attempts to invalidate an attack that required an input that disabled blocking. The timing for a parry allowed for 6 frames of leeway and failure meant taking full damage from the attack as opposed to greatly reduced chip. Most of the time blocking simply was better due to its reliability, but if your opponent's attacks were getting stale and telegraphed, high level players could repeatedly parry away huge chunks of damage despite enemy attacks having very, very quick animations even compared to Annie's cast times.

Reacting to Annie's cast is impossible if you don't expect it. But if you expect it and she telegraphs it is definitely possible to anticipate and counter. In fact, I find that if I play Annie vs. Fizz I will regularly get destroyed in the matchup when they correctly predict and troll pole my W.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Street fighter 3's metagame involved 'parries' which were attempts to invalidate an attack that required an input that disabled blocking. The timing for a parry allowed for 6 frames of leeway and failure meant taking full damage from the attack as opposed to greatly reduced chip. Most of the time blocking simply was better due to its reliability, but if your opponent's attacks were getting stale and telegraphed, high level players could repeatedly parry away huge chunks of damage despite enemy attacks having very, very quick animations even compared to Annie's cast times.

Reacting to Annie's cast is impossible if you don't expect it. But if you expect it and she telegraphs it is definitely possible to anticipate and counter. In fact, I find that if I play Annie vs. Fizz I will regularly get destroyed in the matchup when they correctly predict and troll pole my W.

The vast majority of the champion pool is not as nimble as Fizz. My main problem actually lies with her bot lane. I fully understand that she is more balanced and counterable mid lane.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T01:49:39.895+0000)

The vast majority of the champion pool is not as nimble as Fizz. My main problem actually lies with her bot lane. I fully understand that she is more balanced and counterable mid lane.

If we want to talk about things that make annie more balanced and counterable, let's talk about what happens when she's against two opponents who stand far enough away from each other that annie can only stun one at a time. I would say Annie has MANY more openings in bot lane even if the opponent doesn't try to counterpick her.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If we want to talk about things that make annie more balanced and counterable, let's talk about what happens when she's against two opponents who stand far enough away from each other that annie can only stun one at a time. I would say Annie has MANY more openings in bot lane even if the opponent doesn't try to counterpick her.

People who lane bot are typically less mobile than many mids, and for the most part must stand in Annie's spell range to be a threat to her (when long mage ranges can beat Annie mid by staying far enough and still damaging her). She also has the luxury of a lane partner to beat you to a pulp if RWQ doesn't do enough, and the luxury of sitting on her stun for as long as she wants since she is not farming.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:00:03.891+0000)

People who lane bot are typically less mobile than many mids, and for the most part must stand in Annie's spell range to be a threat to her (when long mage ranges can beat Annie mid by staying far enough and still damaging her). She also has the luxury of a lane partner to beat you to a pulp if RWQ doesn't do enough, and the luxury of sitting on her stun for as long as she wants since she is not farming.

Like half the cast of marksmen have a poke ability that outranges annie and pretty much all the mage supports. Some tank supports (especially Alistar) would just be a waste of a stun as they merely sit and laugh off the burst.

The Bearded BardJan 23, 20162 votes

I dunno, I'm just not seeing the tie in with fire and her lore. To me, 'Dark Child' and capturing a Shadow Bear, and being the child of someone called the Shadow Witch, and being from a place called the Voodoo Lands, and Noxus, just doesn't scream 'pyro fire mage'.

Bondage BunnyboyJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:01:45.156+0000)

I dunno, I'm just not seeing the tie in with fire and her lore. To me, 'Dark Child' and capturing a Shadow Bear, and being the child of someone called the Shadow Witch, and being from a place called the Voodoo Lands, and Noxus, just doesn't scream 'pyro fire mage'.

IMO, Goth Annie should be canon.

The Bearded BardJan 23, 20162 votes

If it were me, she'd have an entire new kit with no ties to the old one except the bear.

Bondage BunnyboyJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=0000000100000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:32:22.551+0000)

If it were me, she'd have an entire new kit with no ties to the old one except the bear.

I wouldn't miss her at all. ._.

The only thing good about her entire existence is how cute she sounds when she commands the bear to wreck shit. http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/2/2f/Annie.ultimate4.ogg/revision/latest?cb=20130118045509

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20166 votes

{quoted}

Despite her seemingly simple kit, Anniebot notably achieved challenger by maining Annie in all roles and lanes.

That does not mean she's deep in terms of gameplay, or balanced, or that her design isn't flawed. That means she's effective in solo queue.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:02:01.061+0000)

That does not mean she's deep in terms of gameplay, or balanced, or that her design isn't flawed. That means she's effective in solo queue.

Challenger level solo queue. You'd think if she had no depth then people would eventually figure out how to counter her. It's not like Anniebot could get last pick every game to prevent getting countered or that a lot of players wouldn't look up who they were up against and preemptively counterpick anyways.

The Bearded BardJan 23, 20168 votes

Countering a champion doesn't mean you automatically win against them. The only real counter for Annie anyway is to stay out of her range. Engaging on her when she doesn't have stun up doesn't work because 1. You don't know how many charges she has and 2. her cooldowns are too low for it to even matter. Engaging on her when she does have her stun up is suicide. Her Q is on a 4 second cooldown at all levels and does 80-220 + 80% AP. With 45% cdr, that's a 2.2 second cooldown. Her stun is 1.75 seconds. If she uses ult to stun you, then QWE in quick succession, you have .45 of a second to kill her before she slams you with another Q stun. All the while you've just taken over 875 +245% of her AP in damage.

QuephaJan 23, 20164 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:16:34.934+0000)

You don't know how many charges she has

try clicking on her some time.

The Bearded BardJan 23, 20162 votes

All that text and you picked one part of it to answer. Doesn't change the fact that the only counter to her is to stay out of her range.

QuephaJan 23, 20163 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:29:06.122+0000)

All that text and you picked one part of it to answer. Doesn't change the fact that the only counter to her is to stay out of her range.

It's a pretty important part. I can understand you hating Annie quite a bit if you didn't realize you can watch her stack count.

The Bearded BardJan 23, 20163 votes

Like I said, her cooldowns are too short for that to matter. Whether she's got 1 stack or ready for a stun, a full rotation of spells will stun me, and her Q will always be up.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=00000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T02:33:41.188+0000)

Like I said, her cooldowns are too short for that to matter. Whether she's got 1 stack or ready for a stun, a full rotation of spells will stun me, and her Q will always be up.

If she's level 6, her ult cooldown is up, and she spent a point on E instead of more damage. getting a stun when using an ult is actually pretty typical.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20164 votes

{quoted}

Challenger level solo queue. You'd think if she had no depth then people would eventually figure out how to counter her. It's not like Anniebot could get last pick every game to prevent getting countered or that a lot of players wouldn't look up who they were up against and preemptively counterpick anyways.

The fact that he made it this far with such a simple champion is actually a tribute to her binary nature and lack of counter play - so you're actually agreeing with me, you just don't seem to know it yet.

{quoted}

try clicking on her some time.

I clicked her and she had 2 stacks - gee, I should be safe to poke her.

Q -> while it's mid air press EW -> oh hello point and click stun that I totally could avoid and gets me mauled by enemy ADC.

{quoted}

If she's level 6, her ult cooldown is up, and she spent a point on E instead of more damage. getting a stun when using an ult is actually pretty typical.

Not with that combined range and dmg it isn't. And I'm not even taking into account the summoned bear's damage. Early game Tibbers can zone an ADC out of a skirmish on its own.

Bears Dont CareJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-23T04:07:00.949+0000)

The fact that he made it this far with such a simple champion is actually a tribute to her binary nature and lack of counter play - so you're actually agreeing with me, you just don't seem to know it yet.

Not really, it could be the result of him being a good player and knowing how to make up for her limitations. Of course,

I clicked her and she had 2 stacks - gee, I should be safe to poke her.

Q -> while it's mid air press EW -> oh hello point and click stun that I totally could avoid and gets me mauled by enemy ADC.

Or or...and this could be crazy.

note the fact her EW are off CD..and respect her range? Or have the ADC be ready to punish using their own abilities?

It's like complaining about Blitzcrank pulling, nkocking you up, then silencing you, and he can do that just as often as Annie can stun you.

OMG OP! Or Thresh. Or Leona. Or Braum.

Better nerf those champions!

Not with that combined range and dmg it isn't. And I'm not even taking into account the summoned bear's damage. Early game Tibbers can zone an ADC out of a skirmish on its own.

Can do the same with Vel'koz and Brand support. Better change their kit because its "toxic" when you need to play around someone's strengths instead of playing the game the exact same way. Just saying, people's complaints are less about "counterplay" and more about the fact they want to feel they can always prevent what happens to them.

Then complain about mobility and the inability to counter it, after their complaints get rid of those mobility counters!

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20164 votes

Blitzcrank skillshot Thresh skillshot Leona skillshot Braum skillshot (as well as delay + cooperation from ally to just get the stun) Velkoz skillshots skillshots

Do you notice a pattern here? I can dodge all of these strong engages. I can't dodge Annie's unless I'm Fizz/guess that she wants to t-bomb just now and burn flash before she actually drops the ult. That is in no way, shape or form a healthy play pattern, yet Riot doesn't touch her.

Your first intervention said that she has a clear window of threat and a clear window of weakness. The fact that she should be treated as a threat at 2 stacks (out of 4) contradicts your initial point. Being dangerous at 2-3-4 stacks when you have such low CD and 2 abilities that you don't need to hit does not qualify.

RatbertJan 23, 20163 votes

Except the top 4 actually have targeted or pbaoe stuns. So they can do what annie does and flash stun you.

And all of them have range on annie, and all but brand have more cc moves.

The counterplay is to kite annie until she dies to poke or backs. The counterplay to those up there is play dodgeball where one hit = one kill. Both are about as easy.

StephenizgodJan 23, 20163 votes

Wrong.. Blitz entire combo relies on him hitting his Q (which is a skillshot), Annie doesn't need to use her Q she can use her W too, so she has flexibility in a combo that is already ridiculously hard to counter. Thresh also needs to hit his hook, Leona needs to hit her E or she needs to land her R which is telegraphed, Braum needs to hit his Q and his ult is telegraphed. Annies is not telegraphed and the stun can come from 3 different abilities, so you need to keep track of all her cooldowns and her stacks all while having the reflexes of a god in order to counter whatever she decides to throw at you.

Bears Dont CareJan 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Wrong.. Blitz entire combo relies on him hitting his Q (which is a skillshot),

And using his W to close the gap so he can knock you up and silence you. Or he can flash silence your entire time similar to Annie flash ulting the entire time, though Blitz's ult is wider in range and he is tankier to boot.

Annie doesn't need to use her Q she can use her W too, so she has flexibility in a combo that is already ridiculously hard to counter.

She has to choose which ability is going to stun, and it is predictable when she is going to stun you. Is she last hitting minions while hving only 2 stacks? Respect the range, poke her or shove the wave to force her to use abilities. She is easily telegraphed in behavior.

Thresh also needs to hit his hook, Leona needs to hit her E or she needs to land her R which is telegraphed, Braum needs to hit his Q and his ult is telegraphed. Annies is not telegraphed and the stun can come from 3 different abilities, so you need to keep track of all her cooldowns and her stacks all while having the reflexes of a god in order to counter whatever she decides to throw at you.

You don't need the reflexes of a god, just intelligence of a human being. You should keep track of her cooldowns, its how you deal with a champion such as Malzahar or Warwick. Recognize when they are at teir deadliest and respect their range. Just like every other champion. Simply because a champ isn't "dodge right to avoid damage!" doesn't mean they lack counterplay.

Counterplay is more than having the ability to dodge. It means taking actions to avoid being wombod. Using superior range and mobility and wave clear. People complain about games becoming homogeneous...this is why.

StephenizgodJan 24, 20162 votes

Im sure you are one of those people who thinks Annie's ult is telegraphed and has counterplay but Malz's Suppress doesnt.

yea there is counter play to Annie, its called not being near her or outranging her, but thats not really counter play or at least no the healthy kind.

Bears Dont CareJan 24, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Im sure you are one of those people who thinks Annie's ult is telegraphed and has counterplay but Malz's Suppress doesnt.

What does one have to do with the other besides act as slander against my self?

Both have counterplay

yea there is counter play to Annie, its called not being near her or outranging her, but thats not really counter play or at least no the healthy kind.

Yes...yes it is. Annie counters champions such as kallista due to reliable damage output.

Kallista counters skill shot users through mobility. When everything has a counter it's balanced.

Having greater range is counter play.

StephenizgodJan 24, 20162 votes

No that is not counter play, that is her being a constant threat at all stages of the game to anyone who isnt Lux or Xerath... Its unhealthy and its toxic, when a champion can point click murder someone like she can, it is bad for the game. Riot says so themselves when they gave their reason for reworking/updating Malzahar, his point click melt kit is unhealthy because it leaves his opponents with little options for counterplay other than dont get ulted or buy QSS. The two have a similar window of oppurtunity to do anything before they kill you, the difference overall is Annie is always a threat, Malz is only a threat when he has his Ult. So its weird that Annie is not being reworked, but he is.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-01-23T04:07:00.949+0000)

I clicked her and she had 2 stacks - gee, I should be safe to poke her.

Q -> while it's mid air press EW -> oh hello point and click stun that I totally could avoid and gets me mauled by enemy ADC.

You know how annie's passive works, you know how many spells she has, yet you still got in range of her when she could stun you. It really sounds like you deserved that death.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

You know how annie's passive works, you know how many spells she has, yet you still got in range of her when she could stun you. It really sounds like you deserved that death.

So you're telling me she should be treated as having a point-and-click stun at 2-3-4 stacks (which is correct). Yet you maintain that she has "obvious windows of weakness"? She doesn't. If I can't be within her range at 2-3-4 stacks I might as well just hug tower all laning long.

Point and click hard CC simply should not exist in the game. The ability to completely shut down an enemy for a couple of seconds is way too powerful to be tied to anything but an ability that the enemy can avoid.

{quoted}

Except the top 4 actually have targeted or pbaoe stuns. So they can do what annie does and flash stun you.

And all of them have range on annie, and all but brand have more cc moves.

The counterplay is to kite annie until she dies to poke or backs. The counterplay to those up there is play dodgeball where one hit = one kill. Both are about as easy.

Blitz, Leona and Braum need to literally walk up to you to auto-attack you (multiple times for Braum) to get a stun.

Thresh's Flay, Leona's Solar Flare, Braum's ult, and Vel'Koz's AoE knock up are not targeted, and are dodgeable by reaction (as opposed to Annie's stuff which can only be avoided if she telegraphs it or you guess it and act before she actually takes action).

To play vs dangerous skillshot is a game of positioning, juking, mind games; there is also a clear window of weakness to these champions once they missed their critical ability. If I get Blitz hooked or Leona dashes to me, I fucked up and I fell for it. If I get Annie stunned, the guy can press a button.

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2016-01-23T14:33:46.279+0000)

Thresh's Flay, Leona's Solar Flare, Braum's ult, and Vel'Koz's AoE knock up are not targeted, and are dodgeable by reaction

So are annie's W and R.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20162 votes

lol no

QuephaJan 23, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Aeolian Melodies,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-23T15:47:10.592+0000)

lol no

Just as dodgeable as thresh's flay.

StephenizgodJan 23, 20161 votes

yes because everybody can see the future, which is the only way to actually dodge Annie's R... there is guessing and not being in range, then there is actually dodging it out of reaction... it is impossible unless you are like Fizz or Vlad...

ModKnightsKemplarJan 23, 20162 votes

She needs a rework, imo. I'm less concerned about her lore not matching her thematics; she's just super binary.

She isn't fun to play against at all, and she is utterly flash reliant to stay relevant in the late game at anything past silver elo. I am shocked we see nothing on her.

Aeolian MelodiesJan 23, 20162 votes

{quoted}

She needs a rework, imo. I'm less concerned about her lore not matching her thematics; she's just super binary.

She isn't fun to play against at all, and she is utterly flash reliant to stay relevant in the late game at anything past silver elo. I am shocked we see nothing on her.

item 3069 item 3800 item 1328 Sivir ult summoner 4 Annie "TIBBERS!"

Oh boy this is so fun [slayer-jinx-unamused]

ModKnightsKemplarJan 23, 20161 votes

exactly.

GhastlyGhoulManJan 23, 20162 votes

Hah! Ikr? If there's one thing I'd like for Annie is making Tibbers more... well, more useful. As things stand he's less of a menace himself and more of a... side effect of her aoe instastun.

AzureInTheDarkJan 23, 20162 votes

Eh. I personally think Annie is fine as is. A beginner champion with a simple kit with some depth to it.

OverpoweredSoapJan 23, 20161 votes

It's probably because riot likes the state she is in right now.

They consider her a necessary evil because she can stop mobile champions easily.

Meanwhile immobile champions just get shat on anyways.

LaserDeathBladeJan 23, 20161 votes

Tell that to Brand and Viktor

Jungle Lux GodJan 23, 20161 votes

If you think about, Annie's use of fire magic may actually make sense.

First, you have to ask the question: if you were to teach your child magic, how would you start? Obviously you can't start by teaching intermediate-advanced level magic, since the child either won't be able to use it or wouldn't be able to control it. Instead, you'd need to start with the basics. Perhaps the fire magic Annie uses is simple magic that she learned and honed at a young age. Her gameplay reflects this by giving all of her spells extremely short range with few particularly interesting traits, suggesting that even though she's an extremely powerful mage, the magic she is using isn't something that powerful to begin with, compared to many of the other mages in the game, just about all of whom use magic that would seemingly be significantly more effective, so it could be entirely possible that the magic Annie uses in the League is basic magic that's just extremely powerful. Of course this theory is debunked because the magic Annie used to control Tibbers would obviously be extremely powerful and was learned at the age of two, but other than that it's not too unreasonable.

Alternatively, it could be that Annie has a particular affinity for fire magic. Lux's lore states that she was found to have a "unique command over the powers of light", suggesting that mages can have particular affinities for different types of magic. Could Annie be the same situation with fire magic? What about a preference for a certain kind of magic? No magic-user in the game utilizes more than one kind of magic despite several mages being perfectly capable of being able to use more than one kind of magic. Is it possible that Annie strongly prefers using fire magic over other kinds of magic, and therefore primarily utilizes fire magic because of that preference?

Pyromania stunning targets might be based around the fire magic Annie uses getting so hot that the target cannot move after getting burned by it. Not the greatest explanation, but it's a start.

In terms of the discussion, I do agree that Annie should be considered for the mage reworks. While her thematics aren't terrible, her gameplay isn't very healthy due to distinct counterplay problems and is not very distinct apart from Tibbers, who doesn't even do that much, although I wouldn't be surprised if she was taken out of the mage update because she needed more work than what the update allowed.

PrimaquariusJan 23, 20161 votes

Its in her title because she's a bit off her rocker...but anyway, yea her kit is completely unrelated to lore or gameplay, but I kinda like the whole fire mage thing since her parents were also mages.

LadyRenlyJan 23, 20161 votes

Her passive is called pyromania because she really loves fire, it shows because when she ignites the entire team with her ult, everyone writhes in pain and screams, causing a stun effect.

KetiJan 24, 20161 votes

yeah I'm pretty bummed, annie is one of the least fun champs to face in the game right now. Unless she's really far behind she basically just gets to ruins someone's day with no counterplay. they added a delay to veigar's E for this exact reason, I have no idea why tibbers has no delay.

Sona PingJan 24, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=G4shA3Z3,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-23T01:04:35.526+0000)

complained about regularly

Complained about regularly by people who can't figure out how to outlane a champion with the single most linear kit in the game.

[zombie-nunu-bummed]

cuddlykitten4Jan 24, 20161 votes

So you just got owned by an Annie amiright? How does throwing fireballs and cones of fire not fit a fire theme? The "Dark Child" uses fire because fire is symbolic of evil in most cases. Why does it stun? Well, you ever had a major burn? I promise you're not going to be moving much. Besides, I think it's representative of her dropping them to their knees by lighting them on fire. Also, to take it in a slightly obscure direction, if she has to cast four abilities first, then it's assumed that she's burning everything in the vicinity, in which case you are stunned because you are surrounded by flames. Again, that ones a little bit more obscure, but the point is you can fit the stun into a fire kit logically with no issue. Hence why every firestarter in the game has a stun proc.

The Bearded BardJan 24, 20161 votes

Nope. Can't even remember the last time I lost to an Annie. I just think her kit is dull and makes no sense thematically. If you'll actually read the post, I mentioned that fire theme makes no sense according to her lore. I get that fire balls and whatnot go very well with a fire theme, what I'm saying is based on her lore, a fire theme makes very little sense. An immobile mage rework seems the perfect time to fix this.

Also, Shyvana and Rumble are both fire users and they both don't have stuns.

cuddlykitten4Jan 24, 20161 votes

Actually, I did explain that part. You were just too busy trying to find any reason to argue with me that you didn't bother to actually read it. I don't argue with ignorance. Have a good day.

The Bearded BardJan 24, 20161 votes

Yeah, but the explanation was dumb.

Dark Child uses fire because fire is symbolic of evil in most cases.

That's just a silly explanation. Also, her lore in no way reflects on her being evil. Really the only thing her lore tells us is that she trapped the soul of a Shadow Bear into a toy, she's the daughter of the founders of the Grey Order, Gregori 'Grey Warden' Hastur and Amoline the Shadow Witch, and that she's a prodigy. Nothing about being evil, nothing about being a fire mage. In fact, the name Grey Order and the fact that they were against Noxus kind of hints that they were good or neutral at the very least, and the fact that she traps the soul of an animal in a toy points towards a way different kind of magic than fire.