Why are "Juggernauts" allowed to get good scaling but…

LaughingStapler · 2015-08-21T02:32:04.876Z

A lot of the new items like Titanic Hydra have damage scaling with your tankiness. They make champions like Skarner deal immense damage while also being tankier than most dedicated tanks such as Sejuani, Gragas, Amumu etc. I'm OK with this because at least juggernauts don't have true gap closers. However, it still seems strange that tank items like FH not only provide worse stats but also worse late game scaling. If Riot thinks FH is too strong, then why not just increase the cost but keep the stats the same? Tanks already have difficulty farming quickly or getting kills to snowball so why make them worse even in the best late game scenario? Much of their damage is % health based so isn't even that high except against other tanks. Furthermore, all tank items even before these changes fell off late game compared to damage oriented champs simply because 35% of their stats were ignored due to LW & VS. Meanwhile, Skarner can nearly 1-shot whoever he ults. as fast as I snap my fingers. It just seems like with the Cinderhulk changes and significant armor nerfs, tanks are back to where they were before Season 5. It's already not the most rewarding class and requires more of a team-focused mindset. Now it's even less rewarding and makes doing your job harder (especially with a lot more true damage being added in recent kits).

LankPantsAug 21, 20154 votes

Sejuani is barely a tank, she doesn't actually have the hard CC or defensive steroids to function as a true tank in the same way as a Nautilus, Alistair or Leona. You can also throw Amumu and maybe a couple of others into that list. They actually act as tanky AP bruisers similar to how Jarvan does on the AD side.

The thing about these champs is that the can either peel OR engage, they can never do both which is kind of a requirement to being a pure CC tank. In order for Sej and Amumu to function they need to do solid damage, if they don't there's no reason to pick them over tanks who have more hard CC.

DurzakaAug 21, 20152 votes

Sej has hard CC on her Q and her R, and soft CC on her passive and E.

She is one off from matching Nautilus for CC. And she has the exact same ability of initiation.

She does miss the natural tank steroid that you mentioned. But she is a great initiator and CCer.

LankPantsAug 21, 20155 votes

But why would I pick her into this role over a guy like Nautilus? He can initiate too, he's tankier when he does and his CC is better.

If Sej doesn't have good damage there's simply no reason to play her over the more supportive tanks I mentioned.

She also hasn't had soft CC on her passive since season 3.

DurzakaAug 21, 20151 votes

Because she can actually clear the jungle, whereas Naut jungle is terrible.

And youre right, i misread her slow resist as a slow. She still has slow on basic attacks and all abilities from her E, which makes up for it.

LankPantsAug 21, 20153 votes

Because she can actually clear the jungle, whereas Naut jungle is terrible.

That's not really a reason. A lot of champs can clear the jungle and a lot of them still aren't viable.

The fact of the matter is Naut, Ali, Leona, Maokai, Sion and a few others all fill the role of true tank a lot better than Sej and it really doesn't matter where they fill this niche from, they can still crowd Sej out from it. This means Sej needs a different niche, which she fills by being a higher damage tank.

You can also replace every time I said Sej with Amumu or Zac.

DurzakaAug 21, 20151 votes

That is absolute nonsense.

Just because someone does your job from another lane doesnt make that champion unviable.

Maybe you want more than one tank in your game, and dont want to make both your top and support a tank. Maybe you want a sustain or other kind of support instead of a tank.

There are multiple layers and scenarios to the situation. just because Sej isnt top tier like she was at the start of the season, doesnt mean she is bad.

LankPantsAug 21, 20151 votes

and dont want to make both your top and support a tank.

Competitively speaking there's no reason not to. Tank tops are vastly superior to most other top laners, Rumble and to a lesser extent Riven are the only real squishy top laners in the meta right now.

There's almost never a reason not to pick a tank support competitively. The only utility mage who's even particularly good right now is Janna. Even Annie and Morg build tanky from the support role.

DurzakaAug 21, 20151 votes

im not playing this game at a top tier level. Maybe I dont want to play a tank top laner because, i dont know, it is fucking fun. And teams can be built around it.

LankPantsAug 21, 20152 votes

I don't care about low tier balance. It's irrelevant. If a player from a higher rank goes to a lower rank and starts spamming tank Ashe top they'll probably win more than they lose.

Maybe I dont want to play a tank top laner because, i dont know, it is fucking fun.

That has nothing to do with balance. Just because you don't find optimal teams fun it doesn't make them any less optimal.

I GANK LANESAug 21, 20153 votes

naut's clear is not terrible, lol. max e and get rangers

Hard4HamstersAug 21, 20151 votes

She does a lot more damage, believe it or not. Amumu and Sej are some of the highest damage potential (pure) tanks in the game thanks to their DOT AOE %HP damage. She also has more burst than him and can set up a team for a fight better with her ult in most situations.

LankPantsAug 22, 20151 votes

That was kind of my point. He was claiming that Sej doesn't need her damage. Amumu and Sej also aren't pure tanks, they're bruiser tanks.

alfavhunterAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But why would I pick her into this role over a guy like Nautilus? He can initiate too, he's tankier when he does and his CC is better.

If Sej doesn't have good damage there's simply no reason to play her over the more supportive tanks I mentioned.

She also hasn't had soft CC on her passive since season 3.

She is more mobile, her Q can jump walls

She gives less warning on her R, while naught gives a delayed warning based on distance that can span a good amount of time

Her R is also a longer CC

She is good, but she traded power for more mobility and less reaction time on her Ult for avoiding it or in naught case, repositioning

I do think she needs a buff to her survival stats though

Just the +5 that many tanks recently got to their armor would be a good start, and close to what she needs done tank wise

Another thing with her is she should get some love to her early clear times, likely raising her lower level base damage on her flail but keeping it scaling to the same end level would work well for that

agbudarAug 21, 20151 votes

she is a tank due to the fact that she has health scaling that turns into damage. thats one of the key aspects of tanks they turn defensive stats into offensive stats

Volibear Sejuani Galio Nautilus Zac Sion

all have defensive > offensive conversions through 1 or more skills

RocketRelmAug 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

she is a tank due to the fact that she has health scaling that turns into damage. thats one of the key aspects of tanks they turn defensive stats into offensive stats

all have defensive > offensive conversions through 1 or more skills

Not Sion, not Zac, not Nautilus. The first three though, yeah.

LankPantsAug 21, 20152 votes

Sion and Naut have Defence>Defence steroids, Zac has a very similar feel to Sej even if he doesn't have a Defence>Offence steroid. He also has %HP which is kind of a defence>offence but that's probably reaching a bit.

Surprised he didn't mention Shen though.

Sire HippingtonAug 21, 20151 votes

naut, zac and sion only have defense->even more defense conversion.... A direct scaleing with def stats is not what makes a tank, especially by riots definition. The difference between tanks and juggernauts/bruisers is that tanks pack alot cc/utillity and more bursty kits, aswell as engagepower. They don't have to walk all the way up to their enemie, they have tools to close the gap, they bring cc, so less options for the enemie to directly fight back, and their damage often is more burst-focused, so it's ok to fall back after initiation and return once your CDs are ready, you don't have to sit within the enemie team constantly.

Juggernauts/bruisers have little to no cc, they need to deal significant damage to impact a fight. Their damage is more dps-focused, so they have to stay in meleerange for a longer duration, and they have no gapclosers, so they need to walk up to their targets. Needing to walk up and stay on a target leaves you very vulnerable to counter attacks, and you also don't have cc to shut down their damage for some time, so juggernauts/bruisers also need more tankiness than tanks. SO in order to have impact in a fight, juggernauts/bruisers need both more tankiness and damage than tanks.

RocketRelmAug 21, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Sejuani is barely a tank, she doesn't actually have the hard CC or defensive steroids to function as a true tank in the same way as a Nautilus, Alistair or Leona. You can also throw Amumu and maybe a couple of others into that list. They actually act as tanky AP bruisers similar to how Jarvan does on the AD side.

The thing about these champs is that the can either peel OR engage, they can never do both which is kind of a requirement to being a pure CC tank. In order for Sej and Amumu to function they need to do solid damage, if they don't there's no reason to pick them over tanks who have more hard CC.

Sejuani's primary defensive steroid is the fact that she can build 100% HP tank stack items and still do significant damage, because she has an innate HP-Damage steroid. So nerfing the defensive items actively nerfs her "steroid". Now that Titanic Hydra is in the game HP-damage is no longer a trait unique to her, and lots of AD champs just do it better than her once they build Titanic Hydra, meaning they can build full tank, have a defensive steroid, and 'then' have HP-damage.

LaughingStaplerAug 21, 20159 votes

{quoted}

The main difference between a juggernaut (say garen) and a tank (like sion) is that juggernauts bring primarily damage output to their team while tanks bring initiation power and lots of CC.

So to properly fill their role throughout the game juggernauts will have much better damage scaling, while tanks will scale way better with CDR and defensive items by simply living longer and providing more lockdown.

Fair enough, that makes sense. I'm not asking for tanks to do 1vs1 damage on par with juggernauts. I'd just want the late game tank items to be similarly top tier in a full build even if I have to pay more.

RiotRiot ScruffyAug 21, 201523 votes

Totally agree, tanks need to have legit relevance and scaling into the late game like all other LoL classes. The Jugg stuff this patch is only the start, we want to make all classes have relevance to the game, diverse champ designs, and satisfying item choices.

WarWorkAug 21, 201515 votes

I'm confused, you say this after the patch you nerf late game cinderhulk?

Kuroi86Aug 21, 20152 votes

Because it was that dang good. This isn't to say that Riot can't go back next patch and revert part of the numbers if it proves it was overnerfed. Though honestly, the difference isn't huge.

A Miss FortuneAug 21, 20157 votes

I also believe they are trying to open up room for more enhancements. Though I think Devourer needs to be nerfed extremely hard before Cinderhulk was. I'd rather have the enemy Gragas be really fat and tanky than the enemy Kayle one shotting me or the enemy Yi doing 850 true damage to me in 1.5 seconds.

RetillinAug 21, 20151 votes

Hey! Pet Dragon!!!!!

Jungle Lux GodAug 21, 20151 votes

It's not really a nerf.

You lose 100-200 health at most, and it doesn't matter nearly as much as the 100 health you gain early on. Any exceptions are either champions with innate health bonuses like Sion or Cho'gath or on high health no resistance builds that aren't good anyways.

9baksQuJhbAug 21, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Totally agree, tanks need to have legit relevance and scaling into the late game like all other LoL classes.

Then why are you nerfing them when they're in a perfectly fine state? Nobody that isn't a flashy assassin main wants this.

Sire HippingtonAug 21, 20154 votes

It really doesn't look that way, seeing that tankstats were nerfed across the board, not only for cost, but mostly slot(endgame)-efficiency...

RetillinAug 21, 20152 votes

I agree with the other posters on this thread. You SAY you agree that tanks need to have legit relevance into the late game. However this patch nerfed a LOT of tank stats and buffed MR. While hurting LATE GAME jungle tanks, and keeping the rather over powered late game on hit jungle item. It doesn't seem to add up.

ULTRA RAMOOSEAug 21, 20152 votes

Don't forget devourer is fking OP right now and you fking nerf cinderhulk/rammus/thornmail, fk you!

Chromatic EagleAug 21, 20151 votes

So all classes are designed for late game? I guess I confused that with mid game. Right?

VenowolfAug 22, 20151 votes

I'm very glad to heard that, Cinderhulk need more power in late game maybe put 20% of bonus health instead 15%.

We also need more items that increase the survability of the tanks in late game.

Nowdays, all the tank junglers are be overshadow by the Devourer junglers (I know Devourer need nerf, because right now is too strong). All have low win ratio, and weak late game, specially again champs like Vayne. (Thormail and Randuin nerf hurt a lot all the tank junglers).

I think so that the new Abyssal Scepter can be a good item for they, also a buff on Cinderhulk % health bonus too.

And we also need a new item that reflect all sources of physical damage (like Thornmail but with all Physical damage sources) and also we need a Sterak’s Cage version to the purely tanks, that give they a powerful shield if they received X amount of damage, because Sterak’s Cage works well on AD based champ and not in champs like: Sejuani, Nautilus, Zac or Gragas to say someone.

Thanks again to think in the tanks, and I'll hope that you give they more love.

darkdillAug 21, 20152 votes

I hate to burst your bubble, but Skarner is able to do both. If he has good CDR, he can both beat the crap out of you AND stunlock you with his E now.

That E needs some sort of "you can't stun someone more than once per X seconds" limiter.

Critmaster GarenAug 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I hate to burst your bubble, but Skarner is able to do both. If he has good CDR, he can both beat the crap out of you AND stunlock you with his E now.

That E needs some sort of "you can't stun someone more than once per X seconds" limiter.

not really. you wouldnt consider udyr a tank because he can spam bear stance stun lategame. he pretty much falls into the same category as the other 4 champions.

darkdillAug 21, 20153 votes

To be fair, Udyr doesn't have the ability to drag someone under a turret like Skarner does.

And in any case, Skarner got overtuned in this patch. Meddler's already said they're gonna hotfix nerf him.

RiotRiot ScruffyAug 21, 201513 votes

What you're saying definitely isn't wrong. Skarner is not 100% juggernaut, hes got some tank blood in him. These types of hybrid classes or grey areas are really good for the game though so champs don't start falling into cookie cutter molds.

Considering he has some tank abilities that other juggernauts don't normally get, he should be sacrificing some of that damage compared to a garen or darius who are more pure damage dealing characters.

LankPantsAug 21, 20154 votes

I'd argue Sej, Amumu, Zac ect. all have bruiser qualities.

They generally trade some CC and defensive steroids for their damage. Sure they still have them but they don't compare to true tanks in these areas.

dunreadmynameAug 21, 20152 votes

I think Skarner is in a good place with a skillshot stun that he still has to aa, It isn't like he didn't have stuns before this. Now he has to land the shot and still catch up to you to stun you. Really mobile champs shouldn't have many problems unless they are standing in one of his control bubbles.

alfavhunterAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think Skarner is in a good place with a skillshot stun that he still has to aa, It isn't like he didn't have stuns before this. Now he has to land the shot and still catch up to you to stun you. Really mobile champs shouldn't have many problems unless they are standing in one of his control bubbles.

Scarnar needs a nerf of X seconds between stuns on the same enemy champion

He will be balanced after that

GloriousKaiserAug 21, 20155 votes

Petition to change Tanks to TITANS?

Juggernauts and Titans, Marksmen. Let's make them sound cool guys.

SnazzyTheMisterAug 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Petition to change Tanks to TITANS?

Juggernauts and Titans, Marksmen. Let's make them sound cool guys.

i like this. i like this so much im replying and upvoting just to express that

JamenerAug 21, 20151 votes

Juggernauts, Titans, Marksmen, Mages, Assassins and... supports? Can't think of a good support name.

alfavhunterAug 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Juggernauts, Titans, Marksmen, Mages, Assassins and... supports? Can't think of a good support name.

Body guards

KoldheartedjspAug 21, 20151 votes

but... doesn't skarner bring initiation power as well as lots of cc and is a juggernaut?

A Supreme SlothAug 21, 20151 votes

its already been said that they will hotfix scarner and tone him down a bit

NilokAug 21, 20151 votes

Why is Sion a tank and not a juggernaut?

PUT U IN MY OVENAug 26, 20151 votes

Because he sucks and has been left in the dumpster after his nerfs. Thanks Cinderhulk.

AMYS GRAVEAug 21, 20151 votes

while tanks will scale way better with CDR and defensive items by simply living longer and providing more lockdown.

... but you nerfed their defensive items while buffing AD/bruiser itemization, which prevents tanks from surviving long enough to do their job effectively.

Chromatic EagleAug 21, 20151 votes

Doesn't Sion do damage though? At the very least his passive. I imagined him as a hybrid.

PUT U IN MY OVENAug 26, 20151 votes

Hello RiotScruffy. Concerned Sion main here. Rode him from Silver V in the beginning of the year to Plat V a few months ago.

While we're talking about Sion, could you guys please leave a sticky note on the office refrigerator or something with his name on it. He had a huge power spike in the Cinderhulk era, which got him nerfed several times. Now that the Cinderhulk era is coming to a close, Sion feels really weak and isn't very rewarding to play.

Other very popular top-lane champions like Riven, Garen, and Fiora take a massive crap on him in lane. Anyone who can reliably dodge or cancel his Q charge up gets a free-win off him because his other two basic abilities are so weak now.

Perhaps... Take off the brakes? I remember this change going to the PBE, but not making it to live because his jungle was already very strong.

Why are "Juggernauts" allowed to get good scaling but tanks no longer can?

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