Oh God.... please don't buff Lethality

Ahristocats··98 votes·13,431 views

https://i.gyazo.com/56c81f8066cebe0105723427f6e9d873.png

{quoted}

Jhin - I'd expect Jhin to do poorly in a meta with BotRK as a really good early buy. We'll probably need to trim a bit off Blade which should help him a bit. Looks like we might have overhit the Lethality items as well, so might put a bit of power back in there at some point which, depending on what form that takes, might or might not help him out too.

or please do it carefully with a lot of tests to not make it broken we all remember 7.3 and the failure it was as it fucked up the game entirely

but what i don't want is lethality buff+ item 3153 nerf at the same time while Jhin is one of the weakest champion in the game right now (46% win rate) we don't want him to jump back to 52% with his items to be buffed+the items used by his enemies to be nerfed at the same time

244 Comments

Best princess EU96 votes

wait what? LOL

"jhin is weak we might buff lethality"

WHY THE FUCK IS JHIN BALANCED AROUND LETHALITY????

PhDs Nuts29 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FwzXcTnI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-05-16T19:00:04.441+0000)

WHY THE FUCK IS JHIN BALANCED AROUND LETHALITY????

This is the question that needs to be answered.

The Yetii Rider8 votes

Jhin's power is greatly tied to lethality, and the reason for that is mathematically simple. For right now, let us assume that one statement, "Jhin's power is tied to lethality" is true. I will demonstrate why this is at the end, but for starters we need to make the argument.

Now, if we can assume that Jhin becomes stronger as lethality becomes stronger, and we can assume that Jhin becomes weaker as lethality becomes weaker, then we can also see an important point: if we simply buff Jhin's kit directly while lethality is weak, then Jhin may become playable, but if lethality is ever improved for another reason, Jhin becomes too strong.

For example, if Jhin is performing at 46% right now while building lethality, and we buff Jhin's kit so that he's performing at 50% while building lethality, that might be good for Jhin players. However, that would mean that if we buff lethality itself later because Talon or Zed is underperforming, then Jhin's win rate will increase above 50% while building lethality. That makes sense, right?

With that said, if Jhin is too weak and lethality items also look a bit weak, it makes more sense to simply buff the items knowing that that will buff Jhin because he primarily builds those items, rather than just buffing Jhin.

Now for the second part. Why is Jhin's kit so directly tied with lethality, when Jhin has more critical strike components than anyone else in the game. There are a number of reasons for this, but the most important reason is that Jhin's passive, Death in Four Acts, has an execute on it. This execute is likely intended to help Jhin farm effectively with only four autos per reload, and also serves as an interesting harass pattern.

If Jhin attacks someone while he has 300 AD, that AD does not directly improve his % missing health damage component. It does help him get their health lower for the fourth hit, but the fourth hit itself will deal only 300 + 25% of the target's missing health. 25% is an extreme amount, by the way. Many assassins only get 8% of a target's missing health, Jhin has triple that and it costs no mana and has no cooldown.

However, if Jhin attacks someone while he has lethality, that DOES increase the % missing health component, because it reduces the target's ability to resist the damage, making it closer to true damage. That's the reason why Jhin builds lethality and sees success with it. His % missing health damage in A Death in Four Acts is likely the largest amount of damage in his entire kit, and it has no AD ratio, cannot crit, and does not benefit from attack speed. So you build lethality. That's all there is to it.

Joxcab7 votes

I don't get it either. Jhin is just fine with crit.

The only issue I could honestly see is crit ADCs do better than him thanks to not being locked by attack speed. Jhin can lifesteal back in bigger bursts, but crit ADCs do a hefty bit of damage too (around 2 autos deals the same damage as one of his), and they can attack a lot faster meaning they can effectively lifesteal a lot faster. Around one of Jhin's autoattacks will deal upwards of 80-90% of a squishy's health, but if they can hit back 4-6+ times and kill him in that duration or lifesteal back enough to survive the second, they will win the trade.

Not being able to attack for 2.5 seconds in lategame is a huge hamper too, but one of the biggest reasons he's balanced.

Jhin is undoubtedly strong at full build, it's just other crit ADCs beat him at that. But Lucian, MF, and others beat him at the armorpen/shred game which is the other side of it.

He's sort of this weird half-and-half in the middle tbh.

Athenes Lulu3 votes

Except that crit is too late-game based in a game where early and mid game is almost everything.

If crit isn't "THE late game stat" then a lot of crit champs, not just Jhin, would also be stronger.

Sahn Uzal69 votes

I think it's more like ''We're planning to buff Lethality, because we may have hit it too hard, which will also indirectly buff Jhin'' There may not be a need for a direct buff to him if he gets an indirect one.

That's what I took from it anyway

RiotMeddler34 votes

That was the intended meaning yes. How much we do/don't buff lethality items, and whether it's done it a way that helps Jhin at all's still being assessed. It's a real enough possibility it's worth considering when considering Jhin though.

Edge of Daybreak4 votes

Why not just buff the individual champions who need it rather than doing this buff all thing again? If the buff works it's just going to break the same champions again and then we are going to nerf the items which puts us back to where we are now. This isnt even speculation it literally happened already and quite a few of those champions affected by it are in a worse place then before you guys changed anything.

Why can't we see individual buffs to champions like zed and jhin instead of trying to push them up and in the same motion push others over the edge? Or if it's a response to lethality users underperforming revert the nerfs you did to them as a result of the lethality buffs then see what happens first.

Papa Andrei2 votes

Because Jhin is in a good spot numbers and balance wise where he is. Just BOTRK rush build has much better overall early-mid game dps and damage that Jhin can not use, so if you skim some power from Bork and add a teency bit back to Lethality and crit, like they did/are, then Jhin will be back with Ashe and Lucian

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

because lethality is weak atm. Pure AD items are better, crit was buffed, botrk too... Assassins have a hard life to kill due to item 3102 item 3812 item 3026 .

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Why not just let Jhin be bad, though? There will always be champs who are out of meta.

Supreme Senpai6923 votes

We should never let champs be bad. I know Riot does that, but they shouldn't. Especially since Jhin is balanced, he just needs some numbers tweaking. Seems like an easier fix than most, as some champs need their actual abilities changed to be meta.

Funkin Dunkin2 votes

Mordekaiser

Ahristocats4 votes

mordekaiser is already fine on his mains and meddler said it multiple time and he is right

look above there is a statement of meddler on morde on the screenshot

Funkin Dunkin2 votes

Just because Meddler said it doesn't mean he's right. Sheep will always fallow the shepherd. With the current meta of every god damn champion having some form of gap close, Mordekaiser is non existent. He would only work if for some reason the enemy team went all champions who are melee and don't have gap closers to run away with. His base movement of 330 makes him irrelevant.

Martensitic3 votes

Because other than any other ADC in the game, Jhin does not profit from Attack Speed in any relevant way (Even Graves at least gets his reload timers shortened), sooooo, Genius Riot had another plan :-)

Ralanr18 votes

{quoted}

Because other than any other ADC in the game, Jhin does not profit from Attack Speed in any relevant way (Even Graves at least gets his reload timers shortened), sooooo, Genius Riot had another plan :-)

HE GETS AD FROM ATTACK SPEED AND A MOVEMENT SPEED INCREASE WHENEVER HE CRITS BASED ON HIS AS.

HOW IS THAT NOT RELEVANT?!

GGLineaR14 votes

Do me a favour and hit your caps lock one more time.

Ralanr17 votes

no.

lolipopevelynn5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sanji fanboy,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FwzXcTnI,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-05-16T19:00:04.441+0000)

wait what? LOL

"jhin is weak we might buff lethality"

WHY THE FUCK IS JHIN BALANCED AROUND LETHALITY????

EXACTLY! jhin was intended to be a crit based ADC who scales very hard off of crit items because of the fact that he doesnt gain aspd.

Apocyliptic21 votes

ADC's and the absurd amount of heals and shields are a major problem currently. Buffing lethality is a way to buff champions that are currently struggling in this meta and will tone down ADC's current power by giving the counters a chance to actually counter them.

AD Assassins simply don't have enough damage to eat through all the peel, shields, and absurd damage ADC's are putting out and drain tanking with this new deaths dance and Lifesteal mastery. Or, in the case of certain assassins, I.E rengar, they no longer are played as an assassin and are now a bruiser, trying to dive in, get damage, then die hoping their carries can finish off the enemy carries. It's a god damn clusterfuck of a mess.

This is going to help the game rather than hurt it, cause God knows when ADC's and Supports are getting banned over other champions you know the games a mess.

Ralanr19 votes

One problem: ADCs benefit off of lethality more than AD assassins.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

You think there's anyway to prevent that?

Ralanr6 votes

Frankly? No and that's why I don't like buffing lethality. I'm more afraid of marksmen using it with %pen items first than I am assassins.

Melee only isn't an option.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

I'd argue that adcs need to benefit more from crit or just be balanced around lethality as a main build.

Ralanr2 votes

Riot already made crit items cheaper man. What else can we do beyond reworking it entirely?

Steelflame7 votes

Perhaps tie up more of their ability scalings in the actual crit stat?

Xayah is a good showcase of this, a fair amount of her E damage is tied up in crit, and building lethality/arpen will come at the cost to that damage.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Ashe has slows or damage tied to her crit but she still builds botrk.

Steelflame4 votes

There is a difference between taking one item away from crit, and building entirely around a different stat (Lethality). When Lethality builds were the thing, they were building all 3 lethality items, LW, and Cleaver. They were completely forgoing AS and Crit entirely to stack more Lethality generally.

Further more, Bork takes the place of BT in many builds, meaning that you are really just trading AD for AS and on hit damage.

Variks the Loyal9 votes

Sure there is. Make Lethality count as half for ranged.

They've done it with other effects before; Frozen Mallet is a less-powerful slow for ranged. Ranged attacks can't proc Dead Man's Plate.

Sexualsaurus3 votes

That would gut it for ranged champs that are meant to use it thoughQuinn Jayce

Variks the Loyal8 votes

Did Riot have those two in mind when Lethality launched?

Quinn is a Marksman primarily, similar to Twitch. She's balanced around bursting with powerful critical strikes, considering her Harrier cooldown is reduced by critical strike chance and it gives her more attack speed.

Isn't Ghostblade the only Lethality item that Jayce builds anyway? It wouldn't gut him at all; reduce his damage some, sure, but he's not meant to be an Assassin anyway, he's an Artillery Mage.

Sexualsaurus5 votes

They did, Quinn got her core recommended items changed to Yommus and Duskblade the moment the preseason was launched. Quinn can't make use of crit as well as most other Adcs, if they want her to actually properly value crit you gotta have her damage abilities have some synergy with it and ghostblade is really important on Quinn. She doesn't scale well in general and lethality gives her the better early game she needs. Jayce sure doesn't build lethality that much anymore but the lethality gives his poke the necessary damage to forfill his role.

Variks the Loyal6 votes

I feel like Jayce's poke would be fine without Lethality.

As for Quinn, introducing/adjusting her scaling to support a normal Marksman build would be fine. The main goal, after all, is to avoid the fiasco when Lethality launched where ranged champions were OP with it.

Sexualsaurus3 votes

When lethality was launched it was fine for most of the time, it wasn't until they stupidly buffed it in patch 7.3 where things started to get out of hand. It wasn't even just the lethality stat itself that was the issue, it was the edge of night active that was the biggest offender. If marksmen had crit synergy like xayah then lethality would be less of a problem, glad riot is doing that with kindred now too.

For real though I love the lethality items on Quinn and not just for the lethality stat, the out of combat movement speed and item actives actually gave her a proper role in league as a roaming assassin and it would be a shame if it was removed.

Variks the Loyal7 votes

They buffed the Lethality items because they were underperforming on the melee assassins that were meant to build them (Kha'Zix, Talon, Zed, Rengar, etc).

ADCs using them came out of nowhere, just like when they started using Sterak's Gage.

Valor Bot2 votes

Quinn may be a marksman due to her powerful ranged auto attacks, but her primary combat pattern more closely resembles that of an assassin's due to her high target selection, burst damage, and mobility. Riot acknowledged this when Lethality items were first launched -- she's definitely on the list of champions they intend to benefit from Lethality.

Crit works on Quinn, sure -- and the crit-based mechanic you see on her passive today was given to her during the Marksman Update to ensure it wouldn't be too terrible of a purchase -- but it by no means serves Quinn's purposes as a champion as well as Lethality does; she's a squishy ranged assassin whose primary combat tool forces her straight into melee range of an enemy, so you can imagine why an item like Edge of Night might be so important on her.

Melledoneus4 votes

I suppose if we reduced base attack speed of ADCs and increased the AS of their crit items, lethality could become a less viable option for a carry.

Other than that, we could reduce AD ratios across the board and create more reliance on crit and attack speed for ADCs.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Wouldn't that stifle non-crit builds? I think it's fine that not all marksmen rely so much on crit.

Melledoneus3 votes

To be perfectly honest most non-crit builds on crit-scaling champions have been broken and unhealthy.

I'm not against build diversity but sometimes you just need to stifle some builds because there's no way around it.

Blackstone012 votes

Do ranged specific lethality nerfs. If ranged champs are abusing something nerf it for them, not just for everybody.

Saianna4 votes

How about:

  1. Nerf overall basic-hit lethality by half
  2. Add passive that spells and abilities have doubled lethality (which means as much lethality as now)

Suddenly auto-attacking ADCs don't benefit from lethality as much

nice table13 votes

how bout we buff the champions that are struggling instead of a whole set of items?

Lord Galvatron11 votes

That moment when it doesn't occur to the joke that is Riot's balancing team that they could just revert Jhin nerfs or buff Jhin instead of changing items that impact dozens of other champions that use them and are already strong. https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Captain-Picard-Facepalm.jpg

Joxcab2 votes

But BOTRK is broken in general.

Lord Galvatron1 votes

BOTRK is overturned, but why on earth would you buff lethality in response to that.

TyrekGoldenspear10 votes

The Azir in me: Pls no more lethality.

The Talon in me: YEEEESSSSS.

Ahristocats8 votes

and which part in you is stronger

the jhin inside me says yes

the every other main inside me says no

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