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When are you going to fix Talon's kit interaction?

Wukong Airlines··11 votes·1,209 views

I'm sure most of you will rush the argument "omg talon op 1shot". No, Talon is not overpowered and doesn't 1shot as fast as you think. He's mostly affected by Lethality changes, infact he's the only assassin that keeps getting constant nerfs without any compensation. Here's a list of Assassins that got changed/nerfed/buffed/adjusted in a way or another:

Akali Ekko Fizz Kassadin Katarina Khazix Leblanc MasterYi Rengar Shaco Zed I'm pretty sure this is almost the whole Assassin list "rengar changed to diver" and most of these champions become godtier even if nerfed were compensated with buffs/adjustments. You know what all these champs have in common and Talon doesnt? a reliable gap closer "excluding Yi", but what does Talon have that will fool a lot into thinking he can easily approach you? a short range "Q" , and a wall jump "E" that doesnt give any MS boost pre or post the jump, infact the jump speed is dependent on your MS which was nerfed by 15 post rework, and doesnt give any form of passive/damage amplifier "like Talon's old E used to".

To be honest I miss the old Talon, his NICHE was a AOE damage assassin, untill Riot decided to dumpster his AOE damage and change him into a common single target autoattack passive reliant "really Riot? we asked for another passive and you again kept it a AA passive?" assassin that most of his damage is in his passive, you miss your passive you dont deal that much damage, the whole kit is revolved around it.

You wanna know what's wrong with Talon ? Let's compare.

Passive: old:- deals additional AA dmg to slowed/cced enemies, doesnt need stacking, gets amplified by his old "E" and crit strike, works in the jungle as well. New:- needs stacking, takes 2 second to apply full damage"could be healed", can be applied per cycle [[ which means if you land W twice and hit Q, u apply passive but as soon as u use your R, it wont stack until bleed ends]]

Q: old:- two way damage: 1) AA reset that deals damage, could be amplified by old "E" and crit and passive [[means u could 1shot sometimes with enough damage and crit]], great splitpushing spell 2) deals additional bleed damage New:- ranged spell that deals less damage, unreliable gap closer, stacks wound for passive, gain additional damage if in short range "mini crit", doesnt work as AA reset ability and cant be used to splitpush, to deal good damage you need to give up your only gap closer and get in melee range using your R mostly.

W: old:- : mid range with good width fast cast spell that applied 2 second slow in both ways, used to deal more damage than the new "W", damage could be amplified by old "E" New: gained insignificant and confusing additional range, lost width and speed, lost damage, cant be amplified since talon lost "E" amplifier, applies 1 sec slow on the return only.

E: old: reliable gapcloser, could be used to outplay skillshots, applies little slow that benefits Talon AA, amplifies all damage for additional 15% at rank 5 New:- jumps walls with 0 ability to cast spells besides R midair. I dont get it why cant i cast Q midair?

R: old:- used to deal reliable AOE damage that actually made Talon a good teamfighter New:- deals less AOE damage, mainly used to stack passive, additional MS was added.

To sum it up, you reworked Talon to make him a teamfighter, but the old Talon used to be that with his AOE damage which you took away from him. his biggest problem is you turned him from Assassin to soldier.

40 Comments

Automated Riven15 votes

As an old and new talon player I highly disagree with most things you have said. First off talon is the only assassin that doesn't suck after the assassin update. And he is quite capable of onshotting squishy champions in under a second if you don't suck. Second, talons old passive was worthless. You either had to slow down your assassination to preemptively cast w or else your passive was useless. If I could trade talons old kit and simply keep his new passive that would be the dream.

I guess I agree with the idea that his kit feels worse now then it did before. But your reasoning why is what I disagree with. They didn't rework talon to be a team fighter. They reworked talon to do less damage because "assassin's assassinating is bad for the game." Hell when I can oneshot people with riven faster then I can with most of the assassin's then there is a problem.

nm10102 votes

Talon's new q when used from range will get him hit by every single skillshot in the game against higher level players. Before you could outplay people with e, but now you can't due to q predictability and low speed (He feels very stat check-y in lane). Sure Talon isn't garbage tier, but they certainly took out a lot of his skill cap in exchange for map movement skill expression.

Wukong Airlines2 votes

Katarina Rengar

p.s: I'm trying to convince myself you're a Talon main, but with 3 games in ranked, I'm most confident you don't know how hard it's like to manage the champ the higher you climb as well.

Automated Riven1 votes

I dont have to be a talon main to play talon. he is one of my few level six champions in the game. being as I am a riven main but I play alot of talon as well.

Enloct1 votes

Rengar "Diver"

NineTailedMystic2 votes

assassin's assassinating in the blink of an eye with no chance of retaliation is bad for the game"

ftfy

Automated Riven2 votes

Talon, rengar and leblanc and maybe an extremely fed fizz are the only assassins who assassinated in the blink of an eye before. And even so leblanc relied on landing chains which was outplayable. Even so talon needed to be pretty fed to litterally oneshot someone without having the aa a few times to finish the kill.

Arsenic Sulfur2 votes

I feel like you're purposely forgetting Rengar in that. He could outrun his warning range so the only way you could tell if he was coming is with a well anticipated pink ward. Otherwise League became a shitty horror game.

Automated Riven1 votes

well forgettting is accurate. I completely forgot about him. But it was not intentional. I will edit the original post.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Kat had some pretty instant kills. Fizz had REWQ, Zhonya's, E out to delete a squishy and get out relatively safely without being extremely fed. Shaco had some instapop potential. Isolated v Kha lead to oneshots.

Basically only Zed has ever not really had the one shot issue, and even then he's had other issues in the past.

Cereal4201 votes

so its not ok for assassins to do that but its ok for adcs to do that by auto attacking? seems legit

NineTailedMystic3 votes

No, ADC burst is an issue too.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

. First off talon is the only assassin that doesn't suck after the assassin update.

I could argue here, he isn't the only ones.

Anyway the new talon is better in everyway (i played the old, and still play the new). Honestly i have no issue to OS with Talon, and this even before the new draktharr.

Hell when I can oneshot people with riven faster then I can with most of the assassin's then there is a problem.

And ??? i can do faster with Wukong too, don't mean x is better than y. Cause u don't take other force in account.

Automated Riven1 votes

My issue with the other good assassin's is that they don't play like assassin's any longer. Zed is simply a nerfed version of the old him that is even more snowball reliant. Katerina (while good ish) is always going to have a reliance on her ult which has a lot of counterplay attached and will never be viable at high levels without simply being over tuned due to the fact that she can assassinate the whole team by design. Rengar is no longer a assassin Leblanc is no longer an assassin Akali is the same thing she used to be with slightly more out play potential on her side with the trade off having less damage. Fizz is heavily dependent on landing a max range ult to kill anyone early game. But other then that is the same as old fizz with less damage. And I could go on but got bored. And this doesn't even take into account the very real issue that most of these champions late game cannot 1v1 the adc with the barring fizz (if he lands max range ult) talon kat (if none of her damage gets sidestepped) and zed if he can manage to stay out of the adc's lifesteal range and lands his damage fast enough. The problem imho is that most of the assassin's are simply bad right now because without being able to instantly assassinate targets they are useless in team fights and are unable to 1v1 high priority targets later leaving them to become more and more useless as the game goes on. While also having a meh early game if they do not snowball. They are one of the few classes that cannot afford to build tanky if they fall behind and cannot simply wait until late game to become gain a use. Unless you are kass I suppose.

Long story short I believe that (as annoying as it was to play against) assassin's need their instant kill potential in order to be useful picks in this game.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

My issue with the other good assassin's is that they don't play like assassin's any longer.

To me Talon is what's an assassin should be.

Katerina (while good ish) is always going to have a reliance on her ult which has a lot of counterplay attached and will never be viable at high levels without simply being over tuned due to the fact that she can assassinate the whole team by design.

What's high level ? Plat level is low IMO. And she's more than viable at diamond elo.

Rengar is no longer a assassin

Honestly he wasn't to begin. Unless ur definition of an assassin is to OS.

Akali is the same thing she used to be with slightly more out play potential on her side with the trade off having less damage.

They planned to rework her.

Fizz is heavily dependent on landing a max range ult to kill anyone early game. But other then that is the same as old fizz with less damage.

Yeah... during early. And even there, no need to touch at max range to kill.

And I could go on but got bored. And this doesn't even take into account the very real issue that most of these champions late game cannot 1v1 the adc with the barring fizz (if he lands max range ult) talon kat (if none of her damage gets sidestepped) and zed if he can manage to stay out of the adc's lifesteal range and lands his damage fast enough.

Hum... it depend how u start the fight. With talon i can easly shut down most of adc in late if they alone. But anyway in late u don't dual carry, u assassinate them, u need to surprise them and instant them.

They are one of the few classes that cannot afford to build tanky if they fall behind and cannot simply wait until late game to become gain a use.

i don't agree, u have plenty tanky item even for assassins item 3156 item 3026 even one

Long story short I believe that (as annoying as it was to play against) assassin's need their instant kill potential in order to be useful picks in this game.

And item 3147 help them to doing this even during late game.

NLGG3R BEATER3 votes

I agree that reworked Talon doesn't seem as satisfying but you seem to be purposely ignoring his pros and just pointing out his cons. Current Talon is possibly the best roaming champ in the game besides TwistedFate /Taliyah which makes him an early game terror as he can gank lanes from unpredictable paths and fuck the enemy jungler as well granted his early game strength. Which brings me to the next point, I haven't really played talon pre rework but from what I've seen he used to be a lot weaker pre 6 and easily abusable by most assassins. Now he's one of the best lane bullies in the game; especially in top lane.

But ye his current Q and E (possible his 2nd W hit as well, his whole kit honestly, lol) feel a bit cluncky and his lategame is kinda iffy but he clearly has his strengths, and is surely overall stronger than most assassins you have listed granted his winrate.

Also MasterYi isn't even an assassin.

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

I liked old Talon better as well. Being able to jump walls is cool and all, but I enjoyed being able to instantly blink to my target with E a lot more than doing a lame dash to them that can be interrupted. New Talon is still fun, but old Talon was a lot more fun imo.

Doing things like this just feels so much more satisfying (especially at 0:26) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc2f-OhraIQ

Wukong Airlines1 votes

Yeah at least back then getting fed actually gave you an advantage, better spells scaling and outplay potential, unlike the new talon where you just have to make sure you land your passive or you're screwed.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

i loved playing old talon he was one of the first champions i killed a whole team with (back when he has his silence)

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

I played the old, and still playing talon. And watching ur video, i don't miss the old. The current is better.

Akali is SO HOT1 votes

To each their own. Some people prefer the instant blink and some people prefer the terrain hopping.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

yeah

i think u like it cause its similar to ur akali blink

PrinceOfStorms2 votes

his NICHE was a AOE damage assassin

No offense but those two things should never be combined.

Meep Man1 votes

Also that was more Katarina's niche anyways.

Arakadia1 votes

his NICHE was a AOE damage assassin

Katarina, Zed, and Ekko had some very comparable AoE. I'd argue Kat does more AoE.

BakedLotion1 votes

{quoted}

Katarina, Zed, and Ekko had some very comparable AoE. I'd argue Kat does more AoE.

Riot literally said Kat will remain the best aoe assassin. There isn't an argument here.

And to OP, idk why you're saying Talon's oneshot combo isn't fast. I do it in under a second consistently with the old duskblade. Wonder how fast it is now.

Arakadia1 votes

Then why did the OP say Talon was the AoE ASSASSIN?

Kuzja11 votes

I have a mixed feeling about the passive. It's for early game but as late game comes, it's mostly good for finishing off targets with low health. It doesn't deal much damage either, especially since it's only physical. Perhaps if it deals true damage instead then perhaps it can be more useful.

Darkdemon6531 votes

Other than a new E, the only thing I'd like to see change with Talon is to have his innate always get consumed by basic attacks, with the damage scaling with the amount of stacks. It's really stupid that an opponent avoiding either the first or second hit of the W becomes completely immune to Talon until the next time his W is off CD simply because he can't make use of his innate, which holds a lot of his budgeted power.

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

I agree riot ruined talon IMO he has almost no way to dodge skill shots besides his ult and they put all his damage in a bleed making the rest of his kit feel so weak just to compensate

Squey1 votes

Everyone i know and have hear of that played old talon HEAVILY prefers old talons kit to his new one. Yes there is definitively issues with his old kit but it at least was fun and had some unique ness. Most of these old talon players, myself included, dont like his new playstyle and have had to bench him. Which means its probably mostly new talon players that are playing him. I consider this to be an obvious failure on riots part. His new kit is interesting, and would probably of been fine if it was a brand new champ. But it just does not do old talon or his players justice.

We Miss his AOE play style.
We miss his teleport e. why did this get removed? it was rather unique. Zed has something similar if not better but he gets to keep his. We miss being able to dodge cc or skill shots with our teleport showing skill. His kit needed changes for sure but riot changed his best qualities along with his bad ones making a completely new kit it feels like.

Sire Hippington1 votes

To sum it up, you reworked Talon to make him a teamfighter,

This is where you go wrong. They didn't rework him 'to make him a teamfighter', the reworked him to make him a roaming assasin, and they succeded well in that. Talons rework is one of the few occasion where riot was spot on at hitting **their **aim. Wether turning him from a teamfighting/aoe assasin into a roaming/snowballing assasin was the right call is quetionable though.

I for one miss the old talon, especially the old W which was a reliable damage and slow abd allowed you to impact fights from a save distance. Now without that, he feels very binary, because if he doesn't go all in, he does not contribute anything to a fight. No longer haveing the reliable ranged slow really is what annoys me the most with the rework.

That said, i do think his new kit has potential(thoguh not as teamfighting assasin), but right now he feels like beeing all about the lvl 2 cheese and then snowballing. If he ever falls behind and his team looses map controll, he's done for. His gapcloseing is to predictable, and his tools to work in a teamfight if his first combo doesn't kill the adc simply don't exist, he doesn't feel like he really has much outplay potential at all.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

That said, i do think his new kit has potential(thoguh not as teamfighting assasin), but right now he feels like beeing all about the lvl 2 cheese and then snowballing.

u play him bad if u think like that. he would be useless at high elo if it was like that (cause its mainly at low elo where u easly kill at lv2 due to underestimate talon damage).

Shablagoo1 votes

The thing with a lot of the reworks I see is that they tried way to hard to give a delay on dmg for assassins instead of making the dmg conditional. Even though the old talon, I think at least, was fine because he had to hit almost everything to oneshot someone his rework was successful in making him a less toxic champion to play against. You have to understand that his old kit actually had the 100-0 with almost no reaction time old rengar had. A point click blink that allowed him to hit everything is not really fair to play against.

I actually plaed old talon a lot and after leblanc and rengar was actually so pissed when talon got reworked because all the usual counters I would stomp became hard match ups. Like Veigar was such a simple match up but with his new q I can't blink his fking caste stun. But also if looked at in both ways it was unfair that he could avoid all skill shots with one point click ability. I think, and this should be applied to all assassins, that if they made most assassin dmg conditional instead of delayed it would be fair. For example Kha, he is a very healthy assassin despite what many adcs think, because you have to be isolate to take his full burst dmg, and need to get a kill for his e reset. There is counterplay in place, high risk high reward fun assassin gameplay we enjoy, and his dmg still instant.

Kat is a similar champion, despite the nerfs she still is a high skill cap, and easily countered champion that has conditional dmg while also being fun to play and not as unfair to paly against. I cant say any assassin will ever be fun to paly against because they have strong single target dmg, but its similar to skrimishers or burst mages. If you look at the failed reworks its Leblanc, Rengar, and Shaco. Leblanc and shaco both got delays on their dmg you wanna know why they are faliures because delayed dmg either needs to be to strong, like leblanc, or is to weak, shaco. Now back to talon and why this applies to him, he is balanced not because his burst is delayed but because it is conditional. They didnt have to make his dmg a bleed, it uselessly over emphasizes Riots obsession with delaying assassin burst compared to every other class which is wrong. Make it conditional and you have a healthy assassins.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

Even though the old talon, I think at least, was fine because he had to hit almost everything to oneshot someone his rework was successful in making him a less toxic champion to play against.

lmao, don't say this as if it was hard. The old one required 0 skill.

Like Veigar was such a simple match up but with his new q I can't blink his fking caste stun.

Still an easy match up for Talon.

Leblanc and shaco both got delays on their dmg you wanna know why they are faliures because delayed dmg either needs to be to strong, like leblanc, or is to weak, shaco.

I don't feel like its delayed in Shaco case (could even argue for leblanc). Anyway they already stated before shaco rework, they planned a bigger rework for him. And shaco isn't weak, unless for the poor players.

Shablagoo1 votes

I think it was easy to counter his burst not as easy as the new talon but if you have zhonya's you could counter some of his burst. I did say it was a toxic but I dont think it was that toxic, he still needed a full rotation to oneshot you its just the manner in which he went about it that made it toxic a point click blink made it difficult for the opponent to react.

It isnt the stomp it use to be, it must be just me but it was much easier for me with the old talon to snowball veigar before with his blink.

I think shaco is weak at least a weaker version of what he use to be, I think a lot of it is the fact that they started adjusting his backstab ratio's. He still needs to be looked at and changed I saw a lot of complains about his changes. I also dont think because it is weak makes it a failure, for example Leblanc she actually has such insane lane dominance it isnt even funny and overall leblanc mains hate the new leblanc. I think if the mains are constantly complaining about the rework it means the rework ultimately failed along with the fact that the champion still isnt fair to play against, which I think was a major condition with the assassin reworks. I still think conditional burst makes assassins more fair not delay in burst, most conditional assassins are very healthy kat, talon, and Kha while delay champinos constently have to have ratio's adjusted, become useless after a point in the game, either the delayed burst is to much or to weak, or needs their ult to burst fizz,leblanc, and shaco.

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

t if you have zhonya's you could counter some of his burst. I did say it was a toxic but I dont think it was that toxic, he still needed a full rotation to oneshot you its just the manner in which he went about it that made it toxic a point click blink made it difficult for the opponent to react.

All champ don't build Zozo. And yeah his kit wasn't healthy.

It isnt the stomp it use to be, it must be just me but it was much easier for me with the old talon to snowball veigar before with his blink.

Was easier to snowball lane... but now its easier to snowball game.

I still think conditional burst makes assassins more fair not delay in burst, most conditional assassins are very healthy kat, talon, and Kha while delay champinos constently have to have ratio's adjusted, become useless after a point in the game, either the delayed burst is to much or to weak, or needs their ult to burst fizz,leblanc, and shaco.

they don't become useless (this word is to strong for the situation). But yeah they become less useful (was same before the rework relatively). I think their role just change...

Sun Wu Ryuumoku1 votes

I prefer this new talon, he's so much better than his old version. The only sh*t they should change is the bug when the E don't work.

Instead Talon they should work on MonkeyKing poor kit

Mr Seattle1 votes

Basically all they needed to do was change his passive and make E able to jump to wards and teammates.

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