Alright guys you need to learn something about Cinderhulk.

Poptart Evelynn·May 18, 2015·2 votes·896 views

I keep seeing this 24/7.

then rushing .

Please think for a second. What does Cinderhulk's passive do? 25% bonus health of bonus health? How do you make use of that? Build health items? Does that not mean building health items leads to 25% more buy for your buy?

So please. Just think about it for a second.

And before some of you reply "but you get tanky", please go google Effective Health.

Edit - /facedesk. You guys have no sense of logic. I'll do another post tomorrow showing the numbers of Effective Health. Or you can just go look at probuilds and notice it's almost never done except for rare cases of Amumu and even then they are aware it's not as effective but didn't have the presets for cdr(runes).

20 Comments

IcyPepperMay 18, 20151 votes

Cinderhulk's passive is a late-game scaling item, you don't have to rush health immediately to make good use of it.

I already see the logic here. You complete cinderhulk for clearing speed on tanks, then build Frozen Heart for cdr/mana/armor.

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Cinderhulk's passive is a late-game scaling item, you don't have to rush health immediately to make good use of it.

I already see the logic here. You complete cinderhulk for clearing speed on tanks, then build Frozen Heart for cdr/mana/armor.

Cinderhulk is not a late game scaling item(Although it's power scaling continues to thrive through all stages of the game). It scales the moment you buy health items.

IcyPepperMay 18, 20151 votes

... I'm not going to even bother to argue that point.

Do you at least see the logic of why someone would get Frozen Heart second now?

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

... I'm not going to even bother to argue that point.

Do you at least see the logic of why someone would get Frozen Heart second now?

"Stating an opinion against the Topic" then says "I'm not going to argue that".

Be more clear of what you are trying to say because you are contradicting the goal behind what you are saying atm.

As to answer that question, the idea behind the point makes sense but is an old habit and that is no longer a viable route. By doing that you are missing out on the passive of cinderhulk and losing much more potential early on. You can achieve better results through other methods.

IcyPepperMay 18, 20151 votes

"Stating an opinion against the Topic" then says "I'm not going to argue that".

Be more clear of what you are trying to say because you are contradicting the goal behind what you are saying atm.

If you think cinderhulk doesn't scale into the late-game just because it scales with HP items when you buy them, obviously our difference of "scaling into late-game" is different. The 25% bonus isn't noticeable early game if you don't build defenses first, and is quite noticeable late-game once you have a mix of defenses and HP. It gives tanks a better late-game presence, that's all I was saying.

And I disagree. Frozen Heart allows tanks to better trade with aa champions, it gives junglers faster clear times with cdr, and prevents them from going oom too soon (especially with blue buff). Not to mention that armor+HP is a lot better than just flat hp, especially if the enemy team builds anti-hp items.

It's kind of like building a little magic penetration or mana after building item 3089 .

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you think cinderhulk doesn't scale into the late-game just because it scales with HP items when you buy them, obviously our difference of "scaling into late-game" is different. The 25% bonus isn't noticeable early game if you don't build defenses first, and is quite noticeable late-game once you have a mix of defenses and HP. It gives tanks a better late-game presence, that's all I was saying.

And I disagree. Frozen Heart allows tanks to better trade with aa champions, it gives junglers faster clear times with cdr, and prevents them from going oom too soon (especially with blue buff). Not to mention that armor+HP is a lot better than just flat hp, especially if the enemy team builds anti-hp items.

It's kind of like building a little magic penetration or mana after building .

You stated that Cinderhulk is a late game item. I'm stating it's an all game item. Read more clearly and understand the points stated before you.

You state it's not noticeable early game. Understand how "Effective Health" works. Do the math then you will realize that you are actually wrong.

And as I said before there are better methods to achieve the same goal but with better results when you speak of it for clearing. If you need cdr there is much more options on the table then just build frozen heart.

Also, at the end you state that the reason is for tankiness. Like I said. Do the Math and tell me if Cinder/Frozen heart is more effective health than Cinder/Randuinds in a situation vs Physical Damage.

GenuwhineMay 18, 20151 votes

you dont realize people dont reverse engineer and see how/why things work they just copy it.

FourVsFiveMay 18, 20151 votes

I think what he saying is why not this? item 3143 comes with hp and armor if you need cdr maybe go cdr boots?

ErockandrollMay 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kat for Elo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fhx60qz0,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-18T04:22:19.595+0000)

I keep seeing this 24/7.

then rushing .

Please think for a second. What does Cinderhulk's passive do? 25% bonus health of bonus health? How do you make use of that? Build health items? Does that not mean building health items leads to 25% more buy for your buy?

So please. Just think about it for a second.

And before some of you reply "but you get tanky", please go google Effective Health.

don't go thinking that the stacking health is the go all end all to tankyness. Frozen heart can be a good pick up, with any of the following.

a) The Enemy team is AD heavy, the armor is good. b) You are ability reliant and need the mana and CDR. c) your not in immediate need for an engage tool. (a righteous glory)

Now granted, that's kinda niche, As a Jungler you generally want some level of health and MR to survive burst. Cause that is what going to allow you to gank and make picks. Frozen Heart is typically seen more often on the top laner.

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

don't go thinking that the stacking health is the go all end all to tankyness. Frozen heart can be a good pick up, with any of the following.

a) The Enemy team is AD heavy, the armor is good. b) You are ability reliant and need the mana and CDR. c) your not in immediate need for an engage tool. (a righteous glory)

Now granted, that's kinda niche, As a Jungler you generally want some level of health and MR to survive burst. Cause that is what going to allow you to gank and make picks. Frozen Heart is typically seen more often on the top laner.

A - Building resist before health increases your actual Effective health less than buying health early on. Do the math and you will understand health item after Cinderhulk results in more effective health than Frozen heart after Cinderhulk. B - Other methods like running cdr runes/masteries and building a rightous glory for the mana are more effective for same needs. C - Again, same as B, other methods are more effective.

I'm not arguing Frozen heart is bad, I'm stating the fact it's bad to rush right after Cinder compared to other choices. You can still build a Frozen heart, just later in the game.

BeatzBoyFTWMay 18, 20151 votes

This is like saying Galio should always rush Magic Resist items when going against a full AD enemy team compo Zed Tryndamere Jax Caitlyn Gangplank , just to compliment his passive's bonus AP from MR items.

See what I mean here?

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This is like saying should always rush Magic Resist items when going against a full AD enemy team compo , just to compliment his passive's bonus AP from MR items.

See what I mean here?

No it's not the same. Building tanky stats is most effective when done in the right order.

Cinderhulk makes building health early on more effective. If the enemy team is all AD. Building Randuinds instead of Frozen heart after Cinderhulk leads you with much more effective health.

CrettMay 18, 20151 votes

Sion build order item 3725 item 3083 item 3065 item 3143 item 3110 item 3264

BluePolarizerMay 18, 20151 votes

The #1 reason is actually CDR and mana if you have to give blues to mid.

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The #1 reason is actually CDR and mana if you have to give blues to mid.

As a lot of pro streamers have said. If you need cdr and mana. Rightous glory + CDR runes/masteries cover it much more effectively.

Zero ShingetsuMay 18, 20151 votes

Pft. "Pros".

4nth0l0gyMay 18, 20151 votes

Frozen heart is a great item even without help if you're trying to mitigate enemy AD. Some pros rush it top lane.

There are advantages to building health that stacks with health, but that doesn't mean other items are inefficient.

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=CC Shepherd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fhx60qz0,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-05-18T10:46:40.394+0000)

Frozen heart is a great item even without help if you're trying to mitigate enemy AD. Some pros rush it top lane.

There are advantages to building health that stacks with health, but that doesn't mean other items are inefficient.

It's because of how effective Cinderhulk's passive is that makes not rushing health after cinder inefficient. You can still get FH just not till after some health.

Drunk RummateMay 18, 20151 votes

FH is a good second pickup for champions that need the CDR and mana. Cinderhulk doesn't actually break 100% gold efficiency until you have 600 HP outside of Cinder, but in many cases the stats from other items are more important than making sure your Cinderhulk reaches efficiency asap.

Sure you could go Warmogs and instantly catapult your Cinderhulk from ~71% to ~110% efficiency. That's great and all but if your opponent's dealing true damage to you then there really isn't a point to having all that health. In many situations frozen heart could very well negate more damage than a Warmogs or Randuins simply because you're able to cast a shield (Sion) an extra time or something similar..

Poptart EvelynnMay 18, 20151 votes

{quoted}

FH is a good second pickup for champions that need the CDR and mana. Cinderhulk doesn't actually break 100% gold efficiency until you have 600 HP outside of Cinder, but in many cases the stats from other items are more important than making sure your Cinderhulk reaches efficiency asap.

Sure you could go Warmogs and instantly catapult your Cinderhulk from ~71% to ~110% efficiency. That's great and all but if your opponent's dealing true damage to you then there really isn't a point to having all that health. In many situations frozen heart could very well negate more damage than a Warmogs or Randuins simply because you're able to cast a shield (Sion) an extra time or something similar..

Yes, resist make shields more effective but you are wrong about the true damage part. It's called Effective Health for the reasoning of tanking damage. Google the meaning behind that.