Miss Fortune passive is denied by a single AA from a minion.

DropFill·Apr 27, 2015·130 votes·4,909 views

Even though her passive has a ramp-up time, and is not even that good. But kalista passive stays the same even when she is slowed.

74 Comments

Sailor MintApr 27, 201510 votes

Different kits do different things.

DropFillApr 27, 201533 votes

[{quoted}](name=Devi Freak Mint,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Fc18HY8w,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-04-27T16:00:44.181+0000)

Different kits do different things.

Yeah. Kalista's kit is 1000x times better than Miss Fortune one.

Sailor MintApr 27, 20155 votes

And minions canceling her passive aren't the reason for her being in an awkward spot.

To be honest, they both sit at a 51% win rate Plat+. Either MF isn't as bad off or Kalista isn't as strong as you claim.

Rinky DinkyApr 27, 201538 votes

Pickrates matter ya dingus

MissFortune 1.68% (0.07 banrate) 51.13% Winrate

Kalista 9.44% (8.94% banrate) 51.43% Winrate

Big difference

RikinApr 28, 20152 votes

How? Even if MF comparatively has a lower pick rate, that "lower pick rate" is still calculated based on thousands of games. I'd understand dismissing his claims if they were based on a small sample size of 10 or even 100 but thousands give a pretty clear view

CindikleApr 28, 20155 votes

A lot of that win and pick rate for MF is at lower MMR.

Champions with low pick rates that do well are often because people who are very good with them and know when to pick them cause it to inflate a bit.

There's not much MF can do that Jinx cannot do better. Even after her upcoming nerf.

Pre nerf Jinx would do slightly more damage from two autos(only one crits) and her ult. This is assuming the average targets HP is 75% for her ult. All while having better self peel, better teamfight mobility, as well as not requiring to stop to do this damage. Top it off she gets to build penetration for all of the damage.

Even with the coming changes to Jinx's R, she'll still at the least be equal to her since she can built penetration for it.

All MF has is slightly better dueling since she has an AA reset and GW debuff.

If you took Kalista's player pool. And took away all of the bad players. Her win rate would inflate too.

She has a lot of issues with her identity.

Q and W give her dueling power. R is a teamfight ability. E is a poor zoning/cc tool. Passive is mostly only good for rotating / getting to lane. (This isn't so bad until more people get boots.)

I wouldn't really say her passive is her issue. It's an early game passive. This is fine.

The majority of her problem is that she cannot build magic pen.

W stacks don't really start hurting till a few hits in. This causes her R to be somewhat weak the first few hits if you're opening with it (like you would in a wombo combo). They cannot just up the damage as this makes it unfair vs low MR enemies.

Have her R add up to 3 stacks on the first hit. Meaning if you have 2 already, you only get one stack. If you have 3 it ignores this and adds one stack as it normally would. If you have no stacks you now have 3.
Have her E grant her 50% of her armor pen as bonus MR pen. This way it doesn't effect squishes as much but landing an E into an R will help her quite a bit.
E now adds 1 W stack on the first hit an one every 3rd hit after that. On top of above change and adding stacks, her E is not an actual threat. That can be quite a bit of damage if she turns around and attacks you in it.
Lower her passive's cooldown at higher levels. Perhaps lowing the cooldown by 0.5 seconds every 4 levels down to a 3s cooldown. Before you think that sounds OP. Remember it has to stack up. It's not an instant 70MS.
Remove GW from her W. Not for MF balance reasons. But healing in this game needs to be rethought out.

RikinApr 28, 20152 votes

It depends on your definition of lower MMR, but those winrates are derived from plat+ players. More to the point I'd imagine different champs will have similar a distribution of players across mmr levels anyway.

There are several things wrong with your low pick rate - do well theory

Data doesn't support it
You're inventing something complicated for something that doesn't need a explanation
You're missing the fact that people being good is different to people who think they are good
As a corollary of 3, the distribution of players is likely to be normal rather than skewed as you think
Data doesn't support it

I don't really have an opinion on the current balance status of adcs, but the data does seem to show that mf is fine

CindikleApr 28, 20153 votes

Data does. Go to LoLKing. Look up MF. Adjust the statistics to ranked solo and check the different ranks.

She's almost non existent at higher MMR. With the player pool of Bronze and Silver compared to the rest. Probably 80-90% of her general win/pick rate is in those two ranks.

Competitively speaking, MF is in a bad spot. She can do well at lower MMR where people are not as good at CCing her ult or handling her in lane(so she gets fed). But once you start facing people who understand her even a little and she starts to fall off.

I guess the best way I can think of to put it, is that her kit is outdated for the game.

RikinApr 28, 20151 votes

But that is completely irrelevant, because the statistics you are arguing against are from Plat+ only games.

OrbvApr 28, 20152 votes

They can't remove Grievous Wounds. There's not enough instances in the game for it to happen. Only Kat, MF and Varus have Grievous Wounds now. Only Ignite and Morellonomicon have it for items.

What are you supposed to do vs Volibear, Swain, Aatrox, Vladimir or Mundo?

CindikleApr 28, 20151 votes

Find a better way to balance it.

Voli has his own other downsides. Swain's healing goes down if his damage is reduced. Aatrox has bigger issues. Vladimir is the reason spell vamp is so for almost any other champion. Mundo's heal can be reduced by slowing him. His R could be change to greatly increase his passive's effectiveness based on MS while also giving him a large MS buff. Thus slows would be his counter. It's not too rare to see teams with few slows in place of having more hard cc. Would probably require a bit of testing to get the %'s right.

Further in for Swain and Vlad. They could make it so that damage dealt to shields cannot grant life by their abilities. This makes a bit more counters to them but would require a bit more timing.

Problem with GW is that you either have it or you don't. It doesn't bring counterplay. It's like saying armor is counterplay to an ADC. It's counter building. It doesn't make facing the ADC more interesting.

Top it off the current forms of GW are very lacking. Varus' can be walked out of. MF's requires her to be in melee range of possibly a target she doesn't want to get close to. Kat's has a good bit of counterplay.

Otherwise we have a 5min cooldown summoner and an item that requires the enemy to already be below 40% hp.

LeeDarkApr 28, 20153 votes

A lower pick rate, basically anything under 2%, generally means that very few players are just picking that champ because they FEEL like it that game. It means that champion is really only being picked by people who really know how to play it. Now, some of the people picking Kalista ARE people who really like picking her, but it is less than 10% of the total number of players picking her. 90% of Kalista games, and of course, this is merely a rough estimation that fails to account for minor variables like dedicated Diamond ADC mains who are picking what they believe to be strong and blah blah blah... but 90% of Kalista games are being played by people who merely PERCEIVE her to be strong without the player being strong WITH that champion. This artificially LOWERS the winrate, compared to the artificially INFLATED winrate achieved by the 90% MF games being played by an MF main.

Basically, in reality, Kalista is really somewhere between 55% and 60% win rate when being played by players that pick her often, while MF, at the same 9.5% pick rate Kalista has, would drop to somewhere in the 45% area.

RikinApr 28, 20151 votes

But it's more than perceiving Kalista to be strong. It's about perceiving yourself to be competent enough to play her in ranked. The same applies to mf. Regardless of how good you are with mf, what determines whether you play her in ranked is your perception of your own competence.

If people are willing to play a champion regardless of actual skill level, then the data is accurate

LeeDarkApr 28, 20151 votes

Dunning-Kruger effect. Your move.

RikinApr 28, 20151 votes

That's the point though isn't it? You've said that mf is only picked by people who know how to play her. Thinking you know how to play a champion and actually being able to play a champion is quite different. Therefore even if every single person who plays mf in ranked thought they were good with mf, the actual results will vary because of the dunning-kruger effect.

LeeDarkApr 28, 20152 votes

No, actually, it is quite the opposite. PRACTICE is what makes someone good with a champion. Those MF players (not all of them, but a significantly higher proportion than the Kalista players) have practiced. That amount of practice lets you know what the champion is capable of doing. You get a feel for their attack animation, their range, speed, damage, and all of that. This is, AT ANY SKILL LEVEL, a certain degree of relative mastery compared to others at the same MMR.

The Dunning Kruger effect would stipulate that someone with that level of mastery is more likely to notice their mistakes and judge themselves more harshly than they deserve because of it. The other players, the 8% who pick Kalista because they perceive her to be overbalanced, are the ones suffering from illusory superiority. The "innate power" of the champion is meaningless without that practice, but they feel like they can pick the champion right up and go into a game with her and rock. Worse, if that actually DOES happen by luck the first game, this inflates their opinion of their own skill.

When you choose a champion, if you choose based on your own knowledge of the champion and your comfort level playing that champion, you will do better. That is simply indisputable. If you choose a champion similar to one you know, you will still likely do well. 2% of the playerbase being comfortable with a champion and practiced at that champion is a reasonable number. 10% is not.

RikinApr 28, 20151 votes

My main problem with your argument is that it hinges on a whole pack of overreaching assumptions. There is no reason why it should be assumed that there are proportionally more practiced mf players than kalista players. Just because there are more/less players of a champion doesn't mean that the proportion of players at each tier of skill suddenly changes. Nor should is there any reason to assume that there are less mf players who suffer from "illusory superiority" or more kalista players from harsh self judgement. You're creating a story to justify a statistic that you think is skewed when it may not be at all.

For me what is comes down to is that the stats were drawn from a sizable sample size and that there doesn't seem to be a reason why champion ability distributions are not normal

LeeDarkApr 28, 20151 votes

Increased champion popularity without changes in a patch, usually due to their appearance in the hands of a pro in the LCS, has ALWAYS, and I mean actually 100% of the time, led to decreased win rates in the following weeks.

The story is justified by the totality of the statistics. Just look at Hecarim's win rate over the past couple of months.

RikinApr 28, 20151 votes

Which is fine, I get that an influx of new players of a champion, whether due to free weeks or appearance in lcs will shift the mean. But that is no evidence for an established playerbase, in the case of both mf AND kalista.

LeeDarkApr 29, 20151 votes

Pick rates over time are monitored on sites like lolking. I suppose it is technically POSSIBLE that MF's static 2% pick rate is, week to week, a different 2% of people than it was last week, but Occam's Razor demands that the simplest explanation, that is, that a champion's static pick rate is largely because the same people pick that champion in the same circumstances, is the right answer. Just like I pick Twitch almost every time I play ADC because that is who I am most comfortable playing.

Since the "not an established playerbase" picking MF is, frankly, the more farfetched of the two possible explanations, I leave it to you to explain why it is the right one. It does you no good to simply say, "Nuh unh!" Just because other possible explanations exist does not mean we are required to throw our hands up and say "Well, fuck it! Who knows what's going on?"

KingKong2350Apr 29, 20151 votes

I get what youre saying Rikin. Statistics are rough for some, but you got it

RikinApr 29, 20151 votes

You misunderstood. Or rather I should've made myself more clear. I did not say that there is no evidence that mf and kalista have established playerbases. I said that Hecarim's shift in winrate due to changes in playerbase is not evidence for mfs and kalistas supposed skewed winrate because they already have an established player base.

Incidentally, while occam's razor has been mentioned, you do recall your entire argument is predicated on a whole pack of assumptions?

ConturbatioJul 4, 20151 votes

wtf miss fortune has a ban ratio?

58738074DEL1Apr 27, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Nunya BezwacksApr 27, 20156 votes

Next thing we know your gonna say they need to add back rengar's triple Q,add the attack speed back to it,let it hit towers again,and buff kassadin back to how he was in season 3.

TwoDadChadApr 27, 201510 votes

Go see the thread about changing her passive to where, after level 11, nothing but champions and dragon/baron cancel her passive.

A Miss FortuneApr 27, 20155 votes

I wouldn't necessarily say Miss Fortune's passive is bad, it's not the best but you also have to remember that MF has two passives.

Her primary one, Strut let's her get into lane much quicker, roam easily especially once she has any boots, and dodge poke with little problems.

Rinky DinkyApr 27, 20153 votes

Her passive is amazingly not even the worst part about her right now

Like all of her scalings, ratio's, etc are just ???

IcyPepperApr 27, 20157 votes

Some of us enjoy playing Mage Fortune >.>

Build item 3115 , you'll still take towers like a boss.

Edit: I admit her scalings are a bit of a mess, but I do enjoy the off-build. It's interesting and different, and plays like an adc but with magic as opposed to an apc, but not like Teemo -_-

ZGM DazzlingApr 27, 20156 votes

You know when you get comments like this theres something wrong with the champ....

IcyPepperApr 27, 20155 votes

Riot did once promote the off-build Mage Fortune ;~;

I'm not opposed to giving her better AD ratios, but I like playing AP sometimes...

Rinky DinkyApr 28, 20152 votes

Honestly, I really do think AP miss fortune is better than ADC Miss Fortune. lol

Champion SkinApr 27, 20152 votes

Her scalings are so weird... like on her ult... The more AD you have the more magic damage it deals... and the more AP you have the more Physical damage it will deal... like what??

IcyPepperApr 27, 20152 votes

I honestly have no idea.

All I know is that ult can do a lot of damage if your team has the cc to work with it.

Champion SkinApr 28, 20151 votes

Well yeah though of course it can make MF rather vulnerable as she has no escape and has to stand still to channel her ult And with the change to her ult... she gets the most out of it if she auto attacks her targets before or after her ult... because well since it applies her W passive which deals magic damage per hit which ramps up and scale with AD and if you ramp it up before her ult... then her ult will deal more damage or MF auto attacks the targets after her ult she will deal more damage

And well I guess this is supposed to work with that whole change which made double up apply on-hit effects (though other then that MF has to auto attack to get any use out of this effect)

If you want AoE damage on your ADC Graves might be more reliable with his Q + R as they don't require any channeling however MF might do more damage if the enemy doesn't have too much MR and she gets of some auto attacks as well after her ult channeling

ChaoticPineconeApr 28, 20152 votes

for an ADC, its a pretty good ult. 1000 base damage, 160% ap as physical, and 216-384% AD as magic.

from its base damage alone it does more than any other ADC ult. ive found some success with MF mid, with a 2/3rd item black cleaver. being an AOE shredder (you still need an adc) cuts through a solid amount of armor. and if you build all AD (maw, cleaver, bt, mercurial, last whisper is what i go) you get 1000+ bonus magic damage on your ult. if you need more magic damage, you can go void staff instead of last whisper.

Champion SkinApr 28, 20151 votes

Well yeah the problem is that it is over 2 seconds where you can't auto attack and you don't have any mobility so you are vulnerable should anyone be able to get to you while you are channeling your ult though

And well Graves can deal some pretty good AoE damage as well and he does it instantly with his Q + R which deals 640-910 and 200-294% bonus AD

Sona PingApr 28, 20151 votes

That's like saying Jarvan is bad because his ult prevents him from body blocking for other targets. It's a different ability, so it has a different use, and so a different playstyle. Of course you don't play her like she is Caitlyn or Kalista or Jinx, so it doesn't matter she doesn't work like them.

PedramCarterApr 28, 20153 votes

Only thing missfortunes passive is good for is running back to your turret after recall lol

GengarApr 28, 20153 votes

Miss Fortune is complete shit. Physical ult that scales with AP??? I can't believe rito doesn't acknowledge how bad a champion is.

DrNovaApr 28, 20153 votes

Its clear you dont know what your talking about.

Nunya BezwacksApr 27, 20152 votes

never even thought of it like that but the fact its not hurt by slows is kinda bullshit it makes her like master yi except with no cooldown,or time limit to it

X FradyApr 28, 20152 votes

When will Rito acknowledge MF's passive is non-existent in combat and change it to something more useful?

DownfallApr 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But kalista passive stays the same even when she is slowed.

Slows actually make kalista jump slower, I don't know how often you play kalista or where the rumor started that they don't slow her. lol.

iamthegoatofwarApr 27, 20157 votes

only attack speed slows in theory will slwo her jumps

DownfallApr 29, 20151 votes

I didn't specify, but yes this is in reference to attack speed slows xD

RyzeReworkApr 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Even though her passive has a ramp-up time, and is not even that good. But kalista passive stays the same even when she is slowed.

i feel like mfs passive is more snowbally cause i mean in my elo sliver and what not ur not ganna attack a mf charging at you thats fed af no ur ganna try to outrun her even tho u cant lol i feel like kalista is a passive that helps her from ahead and behind put i feel like mf damange is wayyyy better then kalista and her as steroid makes it seem like she can kill kalista faster then kalista can get rend stacks

AhurathApr 28, 20152 votes

Kalistas passive is better then mfs for sure since it doesn't get affected my anyone attacking you. And it's basicly meant to make you learn how to orbwalk :P

Mfs damage in lane isn't better then kalistas especially not when you factor in the 12% max damage you just get as bonus when supports hit the same target + rend stacks and aas. Then again it's not who is the better champion 1v1s that doesn't matter that much it's better to pick soemthing that has more use to the team.

CrazorzApr 28, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Even though her passive has a ramp-up time, and is not even that good. But kalista passive stays the same even when she is slowed.

Kalista has a similar issue for sure. Kalista's passive is null and void if she has nothing to AA and if her Q is on CD.

DropFillApr 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Kalista has a similar issue for sure. Kalista's passive is null and void if she has nothing to AA and if her Q is on CD.

If she has nothing to AA and her Q is on CD, something is probably wrong. Also, if she has nothing to AA, seems like she doesn't need her passive at all at that moment.