Boards›Gameplay

@Riot, Why should marksmen be the only irreplaceable Kog in the Warmachine of a successful comp.

MealReadytoEat··4 votes·666 views

I wrote a post explaining in detail why they are the only irreplaceable role for a successful team composition, and why they currently have no real variation on position (Duo Carry Bot), role (Sustained physical DPS), build (IE, PD/SS,LW,BT, Zerks, Defensive item/TF), and playstyle (Conservative back line squishy).

My question is why they should be necessary, a position I remember a Rioter taking recently.

Right now they are necessary to turn success into victory, while having issues contributing to that success by their own actions - They lack agency, and that makes them unfun to play.

I'm very glad ADC's are getting much more awesome identities and much more enjoyable gameplay, but giving them more power while maintaining their strategic necessity will make them overpowered, and drive non-marksmen out of other positions.

I see nothing to make a Marksmen+Support any less optimal bot lane, while plenty to make ADC's more varied and versatile. With versatility comes viability, viability in places that ADC's have traditionally suffered, and with the strengths of ADC's on PBE I expect them to drive many mids, tops, and jungles away, while maintaining their monopoly on bot lane.

My other post goes into more detail on the current issues with the strategic necessity of ADC's.

On another side note, I really like the direction of your changes. The masteries feel impactful and item choices are real. Shifting away from AS and AD and more towards crit, and increasing the AP ratio against towers is good for helping lower the advantage marksmen for taking towers, but I don't think it's nearly far enough. At the very least, let hybrid champions deal them damage on a AP AND AD basis, not AP or AD.

9 Comments

frigginmurlocs1 votes

Small typo that i notice, but Kog should be spelled Cog, because unless you are referring to Kog'maw, the title will be somewhat confusing, and while i know that you cannot edit a title after posting,its something to know for the future

MealReadytoEat1 votes

It was intentional, I planned on a pun but kinda scrapped it. I'm no phreak.

frigginmurlocs1 votes

Speaking of Phreak, post rewqork Kog'maw won't have super amazing synergy with #TONSOFDAMAGE force

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Rage blade is CRAZY on him at least.

z63XnLCMwX1 votes

{quoted}

Speaking of Phreak, post rewqork Kog'maw won't have super amazing synergy with #TONSOFDAMAGE force

Meanwhile

Note: I fucked up with item build but I was too lazy to re-do build and re-type the math. No runes/masteries included for simplicity.

BoTRK - 40% AS, 25 AD, 10% Wifesteal New Guinsoo - 30 AD, 40 AP, 64% AS (8 stacks), +24 AD (8 stacks), +32 AP (8 stacks) New Nashors - 50% AS, 80 AP, 20% CDR Morellonomicon - 80 AP, 20% CDR New Hextech - 40 AD, 80 AP, 15% damage sustain

Let's do the math; total AD = 119, total AP = 312, total AS = 154% Damage from Nashors = 15 + 0.15x312 = 62 Damage from Guinsoo = 20 + 0.15x119 + 0.075x312 +0.15x102.84(Kog'maw AD at level 18) = 77 Attack speed = 0.665 + 1.54x0.665 + 0.5x0.665(koggies passive) = 2.02 AS

This is where the fun begins, Kog'maw new W scaling He has 200 < AD < 300 = 2.5% max hp in AD damage Has has 300 < AP < 400 = 2.25% max hp in AP damage His AA is reduced to by 40% = 221.84x0.6 = 133.104. AS double to 4.04.

His damage output in one second on basics alone at full build assuming no resistance, nor AS slow effects 19% of enemy max hp, surpassing vayne's 12% true damage third bolt 532 damage in AA AD damage 556 damage in AP on hit damage roughly 25% max HP in AD damage from BoTRK passive factoring in diminishing returns sustained 2.5% of target max HP + 53.2hp from BoTRK wifesteal sustained 6.6% of target max HP + 163.2hp from Hextech damage sustain Total damage = 1088 + 44% of target's max Hp Total sustain = 206.4hp + 9.1% of target's max Hp

Applying this to a tank with 3k Hp, 300 Armor, 300 Magic resist and Kog'maw has not landed his 28% magic and armor resist penetration skillshot. This means a 75% resistance to both AP and AD damage. Kog'maw damage on them would be 272 + 330 = 600 per second Kog'maw sustain on them would be 51.6 + 68.25 = 120 per second

This is to a fucking tank with crazy resistance. It's pretty much impossible to hit both 300 resistance on both MR and armor. If Kog'maw builds one penetration item, they're dead in under 3 seconds. Also, this is his damage without any RNG crits. He will always deal this much damage to tanks.

On a squishy 2k Hp target, 100 armor, 100 MR, without Koggie landing his Q, he deals 544 + 440 = 984 damage a second and sustain 106.4 + 91 = 197 hp per second which would kill them in just over two seconds, most carries don't reach 100 resistance on both sides

FAQ

Q:His damage doesn't seem impressive to me, there's more ADC that has a higher dps that him, why is his case special? A: I don't think he's OP with these changes, but it does solidify his role and make him a viable pick as a marksman

Q: Tell me how he's stronger as a marksman with these changes? A: Before, his W has a 17 second cooldown on an 8 second duration which means at max CDR, he'd have 8 seconds uptime and a 2.2 second CD. With the changes, it's a 6 second duration and a 7 second cooldown timer, if the timing mechanic still works as before, then all he needs is a 20% CDR to have W up permanently. At the cost of 40 mana every 6 seconds he becomes the marksman with the farthest range. He'd be able to hit them before they can hit him. Tristana, the marksman with the current farthest permanent AA range is only 669 at level 18, Kog'maw has a whooping 710 AA range at level 8. Level 8!

Q: Couldn't people just gap close the distance? A:That's true if you play him as an traditional AD marksman. 710 range is too small for no risk high reward play in 2015/2016, however look at his hybrid build. It leans way more to AP than AD. Most of his spells scales off AP. Anyone within 2000 range (larger than screen size at 1080p) is in risk of taking damage from his ult. Once they reach 1280 range they risk taking about 400 ap damage from his E. Once they've reached 1000 range, they are at risk of losing almost 1/3 of their resistance and taking another 400 ap damage from his Q. This is more than enough time for Koggie to re-position to wait for that 1 second cooldown ultimate to come back up again. Any enemy that wants to engage Kog'maw has to do it in a group. Once he hits level 18, he's virtually the safest champion to play in the game, more than lux, more than old AP nidalee, more than Xerath.

Q: Isn't AP-hybrid Kog'maw stupid? You can't take turret while their adcs just take yours. A: People are only able to take your turret if they are able to attack the turret outside its laser range or have minions tank it while they get one or two lucky shots in. In both cases it's impossible for them.

  1. Kog'maw is the AP-hybrid marksman. He's able to clear a minion wave as fast as any other mages.
  2. If the enemy's Marksman is in range to hit a turret, then they're are definitely in range of Kog'maw AA. They hit the turret once, they're going to take in 800 damage in return.

Q: What's the weakness of Kog'maw then? A; Mana. In order to continuously clear waves and use his spells he really needs the mana. All other adcs would need red buffs late game, Kog'maw would need blue. Blue bluff is actually more useful on hybrid Kog'maw than it is on allied Mage because he does everything they do at but with a larger range.

Q: Do you think he passive still needs to be changed? A: Yes. It doesn't matter how good his kit is, it's not an excuse for him to have one of the most useless passive in the game.

MealReadytoEat1 votes

His w scales linearly with AD and AP, not in chunks. And it is all magic damage, even from AD. Otherwise, good post!

Edit - also, his w CD starts when it ends now, not during.

z63XnLCMwX1 votes

{quoted}

His w scales linearly with AD and AP, not in chunks. And it is all magic damage, even from AD. Otherwise, good post!

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/10/1029-pbe-update.html He would still do his AA damage in AD, but the combined scaling is in AP damage which I believe I said in the post. I might have it unorganized though.

Edit: I phrased it incorrectly. At the end I still meant his total combined damage from the scaling would be in AP. 2.5% from AD scaling, 2.25 from AP scaling which is 4.75% of target's max hp in magic damage per AA, in one second it's 4 AA or 19% of target's max hp per second as shown in the total section

MealReadytoEat1 votes

Hussa! And yes, I know his auto does physical damage, I was just talking about the W damage.

Rebonack1 votes

By pressing W you double Koggy's OnHit DPS and increase his AD DPS by approximately 70% (though much of that boost is %HP magic damage). Also: that 2.25 bonus AD ratio on his Ult against low HP targets is absolutely terrifying.

More generally, I think Mages could really use more itemization options that would help push them into 'Objective Taker' territory. Making Nashor's OnHit damage work on Towers would be a huge boon in that department. An item that helps against epic monsters (item 1026 item 3145 item 1043 with Madred's old uncapped 4% max HP damage would do wonders) would likewise be pretty great.

Opening up team role space previously held by Rangers alone would be a great kick in the pants to the state of the game.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by MealReadytoEat

There's a very significant nerf to thresh on PBE that I don't think anyone's noticed.
Gameplay153 comments
150
votes
The boards confuse me, is it a tank meta, an assassin meta, a sated meta, or an ADC meta?
Gameplay263 comments
145
votes
Vayne's e should only apply a stack of silver bolts if you collide with terrain.
Gameplay42 comments
122
votes
Mordekaiser with Sated Devouver Hits HIMSELF With On-hit Effects, Gets Awarded the Kill for Suicide
Report a Bug56 comments
93
votes
On the PBE, Late game ADC's have 50% or more lifesteal, 300+ AD, and 70-100% crit.
Gameplay177 comments
89
votes
Playing against Tahm is the most miserable experience I've had in 5 years of LoL
Gameplay197 comments
86
votes