Someone just tried to convince me that the Olaf rework was successful

FalconPawwwwnch·Dec 1, 2014·21 votes·2,075 views

Ahahahahaha

79 Comments

EffectFXDec 1, 20149 votes

Actually it was relatively successful. He saw a decent amount of play in OGN at the start of the year managed to perform well.

CaeziumDec 1, 20144 votes

Yeah but it was strong with Sivir.

He got nerfs and so did Sivir so they won't be seeing play for awhile.

EffectFXDec 1, 20145 votes

Actually with the new catalyst item I could definitely see Olaf coming back into play.

StarrowDec 1, 20148 votes

Actually it was relatively successful. He saw a decent amount of play in OGN at the start of the year managed to perform well. At the start of the year...

EffectFXDec 1, 20143 votes

Do you think before you type? Because it doesn't look like it.

JamnonDec 1, 20141 votes

So he doesn't see as much play now. Got it.

EffectFXDec 2, 20142 votes

That would be correct. However, the addition of the new catalyst item, we very well could see a resurgence of olaf.

JamnonDec 2, 20141 votes

Or we could not.

EffectFXDec 2, 20142 votes

That depends entirely on the player base. Olaf in lane is still very strong against a variety of melee characters so it's far from unlikely.

JamnonDec 2, 20141 votes

Too bad ranged top is as popular as it has been. Ryze and Quin save blind or root for when he activates his buff, shuts him down hard.

EffectFXDec 2, 20143 votes

That is true. We just have to wait for a shift in the meta or for more potential nerfs to ranged top.

If you play it right, you can still play okay against ranged depending on the champion.

By the way, you downvoting doesn't make anything I'm saying less true.

JamnonDec 3, 20141 votes

By the way, you downvoting doesn't make anything I'm saying less true.

It doesn't make it not true.

Your claiming Olaf is fine doesn't make it true either.

EffectFXDec 3, 20142 votes

You may continue to use your feel good placebo.

Quote me where I said olaf was fine.

JamnonDec 3, 20141 votes

You make such a criticism and yet continue to reply. Applies as much to your posts, I suppose. Quote me where I stated how I felt.

Actually it was relatively successful.

Olaf in lane is still very strong against a variety of melee characters

Olaf is a really good example in this instance.

JamnonDec 3, 20141 votes

You make such a criticism and yet continue to reply. Applies as much to your posts, I suppose. Quote me where I stated how I felt.

Actually it was relatively successful.

Olaf in lane is still very strong against a variety of melee characters

Olaf is a really good example in this instance. I said olaf was fine.

EffectFXDec 3, 20142 votes

I make the criticism because it's a pointless to bother with votes. I don't need to quote you, it's easily inferred because that's all it's useful for.

That's not me saying it's fine. But allow me to elaborate.

The rework was successful, he saw a decent amount of play in OGN among the top players in the world and was successful. He received minor nerfs shortly after which barely pushed him to where he is now.

In a strictly 1v1 match up against a wide variety of melee champs he is strong. This is not to say he's fine.

Olaf is a really good example of a champion that is hard to balance (context is important when quoting).

StarrowDec 2, 20149 votes

Do you think before you type? Because it doesn't look like it.

Woooooooosh

EffectFXDec 2, 20142 votes

So you don't think, good to know.

StarrowDec 2, 20148 votes

So you don't think, good to know.

You're stupid. Don't talk to me peasant.

EffectFXDec 2, 20142 votes

Don't throw a fit because you didn't bother to think before typing.

StarrowDec 2, 20148 votes

Don't throw a fit because you didn't bother to think before typing.

The amount of irony is hilarious. Would you like to DOWNVOTE battle?

EffectFXDec 2, 20142 votes

There is no irony, just me being right, and you being wrong.

Oh no! worthless internet points, whatever will I do.

JustMyBassCannonDec 4, 20141 votes

Oh no! worthless internet points, whatever will I do.

Do your best Irelia/honey badger impression?

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20147 votes

Assuming any of Riot's reworks were successful.

EffectFXDec 1, 201416 votes

Considering the majority of reworks could definitely be considered successful.

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20148 votes

Majority were successful? To who? Riot?

EffectFXDec 1, 20149 votes

More or less. Most people, yourself included seem to misunderstand the purposes of reworking champions. Which is making it so that champions are in a state that they CAN be balanced, not to make them immediately playable. The majority of reworks have been successful in that regard.

People can deny it all they want, but a lot of old champions have kits that are difficult/next to impossible to balance. These champions are typically too strong or too weak.

Olaf is a really good example in this instance. He used to be an incredibly difficult champion to balance (and some could argue he still is). But his current iteration isn't likely to be doing this as much without being really far ahead.

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20149 votes

How was Cassiopeia unbalanceable? How was Rengar unbalanceable? The kits were no where near unbalanceable, but Riot decided not to even try. There were tons of great ideas put out by the community in the Rengar rework thread, and Riot was going along with it for a while, but then they decided to just say fuck it, let's throw away all this work we and the community have put in and push through this buggy ass rework. Oh yea and PBE testers constantly said it's buggy but we don't give a fuck, we'll just fix those bugs a month after it hits live.

EffectFXDec 1, 201410 votes

Only two eh? That's why I said the majority, that being said...

Cass's old kit was too strong to buff, but at the same time, she wasn't a strong enough character to see play outside of the few people who mained her. She was (and might still be) a fairly difficult champion to play, you had to put a lot of practice (or be a mechanical god) to get the most out of her old kit.

Rengar wasn't a huge rework but it was intended to

Make Rengar's laning a little more difficult
Reduce the effectiveness of assassin rengar.
Reduce the sustain of tank rengar
Make fighter rengar more enticing to play.
Reduce Rengar's ability to split push both quickly and safely.

They managed to succeed in all of that except for point 1. But after adding a additional 250 units to his detection range they've done a little better. You can still play assassin rengar, but you need a much larger gold lead now.

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20145 votes

I only listed two because I'd rather not list all of them.

Cass underpowered. Cass kit will be op if we buff her. Let's nerf her (^:.

Rengar's laning is a LOT more difficult. If you actually played him you'd know.
They sure as hell did that.
Sustain of tank rengar? I don't even see what the problem with it was. You had to sacrifice CC and damage for a heal, which wasn't a bad design.
*The only viable way to play
Reduce? More like removed. They took away the attack speed buffs AND his ability to proc ferocity on turret. One or the other would've been fine, but both destroyed his split. They might as well make Jax passive not gain stacks or keep stacks when attacking turrets and make nasus q not damage building either. And don't tell me Jax and Nasus aren't safe splitters, Jax can just ward jump over a wall and Nasus can just say lol wither and walk away dancing.

EffectFXDec 1, 201410 votes

Reworks are not buffs or nerfs. There's always going to be unsatisfied with a buff, nerf, rework, etc etc. There is no way to please every single person out there. I am not saying Riot is flawless with their reworks, but they do a lot better then the vocal minority makes it sound.

So the Rengar rework is working as intended. Great.

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20146 votes

I'm not saying it isn't working as intended. I'm saying what's intended is stupid.

MEMEME670Dec 1, 20147 votes

And are you willing to be open minded about it?

Or are you just running around yelling your opinion like it matters.

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20144 votes

Open minded? Do you know how many games I've played as Rengar before and after the rework? Over 500. I gave new rengar a shot, I tried, I really did. But he just isn't a champion many can enjoy anymore. Please fuck off.

MEMEME670Dec 2, 20143 votes

Okay, so you know through experience he isn't a champion you enjoy anymore, that makes sense.

But how can you conclude he's not a champion many people can enjoy anymore? And, have you taken into account overall game health in areas that include Rengar before // after the rework?

By being open minded, I meant willing to have a rational discussion with someone who sees differently than you do, by the way.

AetherKingdomDec 2, 20141 votes

In my opinion Rengar was never a problem to game health. People just didn't coordinate well and when they did Rengar wasn't shit.

And overall, this game is going to shit with it's current balance changes. I typically am rational to those who are higher rank than me, because then I accept that you have better game sense than me.

MEMEME670Dec 2, 20144 votes

Being able to triple Q and basically instakill someone (while initiating out of stealth) while being a VERY good splitpusher was definitely problematic.

When you coordinated well he was about as good as any assassin, but could still splitpush extremely well and, as far as I know, didn't have a horrible lane phase.

Why would you say the game is going to shit with its balance changes?

I main support, and bot lane has seen a huge amount of improvement in balance (currently the only real problem is Lucian, when before you had WAY less diversity and such.).

JustMyBassCannonDec 1, 20142 votes

I only listed two because I'd rather not list all of them.

Cop-out. If you're going to claim that someone made dozens of mistakes and then only list two, either you're blind or mental if you think that's going to convince anyone sane.

Burden of Proof belongs to whomever makes the claim.

DryditchDec 1, 20143 votes

How about some more, then?

Viking Sion Olaf Cass OLAF (Sion again) OLAF! Skarner (some people don't like him.) OOOOLAF!

ZoofDec 1, 20143 votes

From memory olaf was reworked once, Victor rework made him just add strong add he was, with a similar play style, Sion is doing fine, you just need to think smarter about build choices. Skarner was pretty bad, but he's getting buffed back into viability. Sadly cass is just a list case right now.

DryditchDec 1, 20143 votes

To old AD Sion mains, he's in a worse place than Cass.

The problem is that there are only like 10 of us, so we can't make a stink.

(For me it's a mix of thematic and gameplay issues, which I won't get in to here out of respect for the original thread.)

Olaf was indeed reworked, but he spawned the term "olafed" to denote a champion who has been completely ruined.

I actually might pick up Skarner once he gets some buffs.

WheatloafDec 1, 20145 votes

Olaf'd refers to the state he was in before he was reworked: nerfed into unplayability. I won't argue that he's fine now (because he isn't), but he's in a healthier spot than he used to be.

And from what I remember, AD Sion used to consist of building full AD and trying not to get kited, which only really worked because of the guaranteed stun anyway.

DryditchDec 1, 20143 votes

Olaf still isn't realistically viable. He does no damage if you build him for survivability, and has no survivability if you build him for damage.

old AD Sion builds went something like this:

item 3074 item 3111 item 3072 item 3071 item 3050 item 3083

Or at least mine did.

Most of the time, I'd rush Tiamat, grab Boots, then pick up Herald before finishing Hydra. That plus Cannibalism meant I could lead a real charge into the enemy.

JustMyBassCannonDec 2, 20141 votes

How about some more, then?

That would be fantastic.

Viking

You mean Olaf, or did you herp-a-derp on Viktor's name? You already mentioned Olaf, and Viktor's redesign was fucking amazing. So that's still two.

Sion

The only complaint I hear from Sion mains at all is the loss of Atma's Impaler. They seem to enjoy the rework, despite the fact that his base HP was nerfed due to how much stronger Soul Furnace's HP gain is.

Olaf

Again, already named.

Cass

Also already named.

OLAF (Sion again) OLAF!

Unoriginal filibustering bullshit is unoriginal.

Skarner (some people don't like him.)

Some people have never liked Skarner; that doesn't mean his rework was unsuccessful. Some people still don't like the new Karma design, but that doesn't mean her rework was unsuccessful. If the goal of reworking champions was to make them liked by everyone, then I could agree that Riot has been 100% unsuccessful; there's always some uninformed, loud jackass (like yourself) who doesn't like the rework no matter what positives it brought along with it.

OOOOLAF!

So you're still only at 2 unsuccessful reworks. I'm still waiting for a real list. But, y'know, you can keep on the whole "I'm actually trolling you" facade in lieu of an argument (or, god forbid, you admit that you actually can't list other unsuccessful reworks).

DryditchDec 2, 20142 votes

Or, you know, I could not be the guy that wrote the original list and just be here for fun.

Have fun getting a heart attack over every little thing that happens.

JustMyBassCannonDec 2, 20141 votes

Does it matter if you're not the person with whom I was originally arguing? You decided to take his side and made (utterly fucking stupid) statements.

Have fun playing the fool, because it's the only thing you'll ever know.

DryditchDec 2, 20143 votes

Sure thing. I'll have plenty of fun doing that while I wipe my tears with a Princeton degree.

I'm on the boards to have some fun and generally lighthearted conversations with people.

It just so happens that I think Olaf was absolutely ruined by his rework, and that he deserves to be placed on that list multiple times because of just how poorly they treated his character. Sion falls into the same category, where the rework doesn't work thematically, and it removed what old AD Sion mains (myself included) felt was his identifying ability (namely Cannibalism). Without it he feels rather mindless.

Three reworks as bad as Sion, Olaf, and Cassiopeia are all the proof anyone needs to see that Riot isn't listening to its community when it does the reworks, and that something is wrong with their process.

They thoroughly missed the marks on those three, and it will take a lot for the community of those champions' players to trust them with other reworks.

I honestly fear them ever touching Malphite's kit, because for all I know, they'll make his Ult into a spell that turns him into a frickin bunny rabbit.

Kuroi86Dec 2, 20143 votes

Three reworks as bad as Sion, Olaf, and Cassiopeia are all the proof anyone needs to see that Riot isn't listening to its community when it does the reworks, and that something is wrong with their process.

They can only listen but so much. Look through some rework ideas and kits that players have made up. Some are pathetically weak and overnerfed to the point that said champ would never be picked. Others are either too strong to be justified in a strong kit or possess toxic elements that would be nerfed to hell and back within a patch. Just because Riot listens to the community, it's still their job, they still have to justify any decision to their superiors in the company and that means hitting certain marks whether the player community likes those marks or not.

EffectFXDec 2, 20143 votes

Sion's rework was a complete success actually. They turned his old split up kit in to something cohesive that actually fits together (and capable of seeing competitive play). Just because you can't go hyper lifesteal anymore doesn't mean his rework was a failure.

Olaf's rework was also a success, he just received a couple of nerfs that put him back down, the addition of Righteous glory is definitely a strong indirect buff him to him.

Cass could arguably use more attention.

Riot does a much better job then you seem to give them credit for.

There really isn't much reason to touch Malphite right now. There's a list on riot's main site of champions that are likely to get looked at next for reworks or visual updates, and there's quite a few red posts about other champion reworks like Darius, warwick, diana, etc.

AetherKingdomDec 1, 20144 votes

No one said dozens, I said a majority.