So now that every Q is gonna made into a skillshot

ZzEslIolZQ·Apr 14, 2015·6 votes·990 views

Can they do something about the mobility in this game? Like Ahri's random 200 MS? I mean what was the point of this change, but to make it almost impossible to land a skillshot on Ahri?

16 Comments

CrettApr 14, 20153 votes

Akali Annie Fiddlesticks Gangplank Kayle all Qs must have counterplay

SEKAIApr 14, 20154 votes

Yet the counterplay is to simply delete it and make what the thing was supposed to counter, broken with no counter measures since you removed them already?

Riot's logic, right there.

Counterplay is NOT just a matter of "can I dodge it or not", NO.

mi ramfanApr 14, 20152 votes

(TL;DR at the bottom)

I should just make a thread about this because I end up saying this in every thread about point and click abilities:

SKILLSHOT ABILITIES HAVE ALL THE SAME COUNTERPLAY AS POINT AND CLICK, PLUS THE ABILTY TO DODGE.

They literally just have more counterplay. All those "strategic" options that opponents of the skillshot trend complain about are still counterplay against skillshot abilities. You can still build MR to defend yourself against Ryze when his Q is a skillshot-but you also have the option to dodge.

TBH the only time single target abilities should be point and click instead of a skillshot is when the champion absolutely needs 100% reliability on that skill for their kit to work. Rammus's taunt is a good example of this-his kit is completely useless without the ability to force opponents to attack him in defensive ball curl, so he gets a point and click. Most shields and heals are point and click because supports are meant to make the whole team better, including champions who are constantly jumping around like Kalista, Yasuo, and Nidalee.

The inverse of the above statement is also true: it's better to make an ability a skillshot when you don't want to or can't balance something around 100% reliability. Imagine If Blitzcrank's Q was point and click. Sure, there would be interesting "strategic gameplay" coming from knowing when Blitzcrank cannot fight you and won't grab even though he's in range, but that just means that 90% of the time you should just never go in range. By making Blitzcrank's Q a skillshot, we allow Blitzcrank to make all the same decisions (is the mana cost worth it, can I even win this fight, what if I grab the wrong person), while adding the extra consideration of "can I land this hook" and give opponents more to do against Blitzcrank by allowing them to dodge instead of just never going in range.

Essentially, then, we need to evaluate skillshot vs point and click on a kit by kit basis. If an ability being reliable 100% of the time is essential to the champion functioning, it should be point and click. If an ability being unreliable will not ruin the champion OR balancing the ability around 100% reliability is impossible, it should be a skillshot.

SEKAIApr 14, 20151 votes

Point and click: Low range, not spammable, all have mana as resource if I am not wrong, can not target something you can not see, ie to hit somebody 2 conditions must meet: they must be within range AND visible.

Skill shots: long range, more spammable, quite a few of them associate themselves with no/nearly no resource kits, and you don't need to have vision in order to land it.

There is a reason why tourneys is mostly crowded by skill shots champs, because with enough practice, anyone can land whatever and whenever they wish without being restricted by point and click's restrictions on literally everything besides their guaranteed lock down once it's landed.

We can't just say "hey it's a point and click therefore we should change it into skill shots", no, it's entirely depending on the context of each individual champs, and it's also no news that point and clicks is the only appropriate counter to mobility creeps. By valuing risk and reward, the company should assign skills to either point & click or skill shots accordingly.

Systematically removing all point and clicks would simply ensures the game's death once it's finished. Because we have an element hanging out entirely without any defined counterplay, the most mobile will simply become the strongest and there is no way to stop him.

mi ramfanApr 14, 20152 votes

Based on some of the stuff in this quote, I think we're actually in near-perfect agreement on this discussion. We just expressed it in different ways:

{quoted}

Point and click: Low range, not spammable, all have mana as resource if I am not wrong, can not target something you can not see, ie to hit somebody 2 conditions must meet: they must be within range AND visible.

Skill shots: long range, more spammable, quite a few of them associate themselves with no/nearly no resource kits, and you don't need to have vision in order to land it.

There is a reason very few manaless champions have point and click abilities. It's because manaless point and click is literally brainless and takes away what little strategic decision making there was on point and click. The only reason manaless champions with point and click have it is because it's necessary for their kits to work as intended and not be totally broken:

Akali Q and R: Both MUST BE 100% reliable for different reasons. Q must be reliable because without it she has no damage or lane presence whatsoever, and damage is the only reason for her to exist. R must be point and click because A. it's her only way to get in on a target and B. if it was a skillshot she'd be absurdly mobile and impossible to gank post 6.

Shen Q: there's not much justification for this one other than that it does pretty shit damage

Vladimir Q: Needs a reliable source of healing in order to not die when using, you know, all of his other abilities. It would really suck if he could never actually use his E or W.

Yasuo E and R: He'd be broken as balls if he had a skillshot dash with that cooldown that wasn't targeted. R has to be targeted in order to specifically work on knocked up champions.

Notice too that a few of these champions are historically problematic. Akali's pure point and click all in at level 6 has had to be nerfed a million times, and she's reached a point where they literally cannot nerf her anymore without making her unplayable. Vladimir's Q interacting with spellvamp has created some bullshit scenarios where it's impossible to force him out of lane, ever. Yasuo is a frequent target of QQ, although to be fair a good percentage of it was focused on wind wall and not on his E.

There is a reason why tourneys is mostly crowded by skill shots champs, because with enough practice, anyone can land whatever and whenever they wish without being restricted by point and click's restrictions on literally everything besides their guaranteed lock down once it's landed.

Well, it's also because in order to be balanced against the 100% reliability of point and click, skill shots need to be stronger in some way. A good example of balancing for probability is Pokemon's Thunder and Thunderbolt attacks, two Electric-type moves that are essentially pure damage. Thunder is 120 power, 75% accuracy while Thunderbolt is 90 power, 100% accuracy. Because Thunderbolt is always reliable in the absence of evasion and accuracy modifiers, it's the "point and click" choice. However, Thunder's extra power can allow you to secure KOs you wouldn't normally get, at the cost of occasionally missing-it's the "skillshot" choice.

In the same way, skill shot abilities are usually more powerful when you hit them because they won't land every time.

We can't just say "hey it's a point and click therefore we should change it into skill shots", no, it's entirely depending on the context of each individual champs, and it's also no news that point and clicks is the only appropriate counter to mobility creeps. By valuing risk and reward, the company should assign skills to either point & click or skill shots accordingly.

I said pretty much the same thing in the post you're replying to. It's not appropriate to say "all abilities should be skillshots" or "all abilities should be point and click". It depends on the champion's kit and the role each individual spell plays within it.

Systematically removing all point and clicks would simply ensures the game's death once it's finished. Because we have an element hanging out entirely without any defined counterplay, the most mobile will simply become the strongest and there is no way to stop him.

I mostly disagree here, especially on the final point. The defined counterplay to skillshots is dodging. If you're in a situation where you cannot dodge, then the regular elements of counterplay come in: building resistances, avoiding situations where you can't dodge in the first place, etc.

While there are many point and click abilities that are essential to their champions (Rammus taunt, Cassieopeia E, Akali's Q), there are also many which do not offer enough benefits as point and click abilities to justify their lessened counterplay compared to skillshots.

Ryze's Q (which is the thing that started this whole debate) is actually an excellent example of this. Does Ryze need his Q to be 100% reliable for him to function? I don't think so-I'd say his snare being 100% reliable is much more important to his kit functioning than his Q (and indeed, you'll notice that Ryze is keeping his point and click snare for exactly this reason). On the other hand, Q is just a regular damage nuke. Since there isn't any reason Ryze needs it (he'll still have reliable ranged harass with the new Spell Flux and his ranged autoattacks), and both Ryze and his opponent are forced to make more decisions once Q becomes a skillshot, making Q a skillshot is just better for game health and allows the skill itself to be stronger when you land it.

SEKAIApr 14, 20151 votes

The defined counterplay to skillshots is dodging,

When it can fail miserably it's not a "counter". Let's not even forget how spammable most skill shots are, and how mobile the champs who get to spam them are. You might as well say the counter to losing is to win.

The amount of skills it needs to consistently land skill shots is lower than consistently dodging them (amplified by the fact skill shots champs are also more mobile than point and click champs by default most of the time), what's the point of having a statement that "A counters B" but you need more skills to make A work? How's that a counter in the first place? When you need more effort to counter something you're supposed to counter, that's not a counter, at all.

Lock ons and skill shots were already balanced between them, only a few exceptions needed to be looked at the that was it. What's the deal with removing all point and click and replace them with skill shots when we don't need it?

Champions like say, Lee Sin the most mobile champion in the entire game, has 1 skill shot, 1 AoE and 2 lock on spells, 1 of them is ulti (which is also the strongest cc in the entire game). Or Zed having an point and click ulti despite being just as mobile? Then we also look at Nid or LB and their mobility on top of their spammable skill shots. Fair much?

Point and click is the answer to mobility creep, that's why it has to stay. Saying "you just need to dodge skill shots" when they throw out projectiles faster than you can handle, more mobile than your kit, and one that is also more overloaded, how is that fair of a judgement to say "skill shots have counterplay, you just need to dodge?". That's utter insanity.

Because if we removed lock ons, who is more mobile will simply be better at dodging, the more mobile the more powerful a champion is. What is the thing that stops mobility again?

Balance on the level between champions, argue just between 2 mechanics is like talking to air, it means nothing. And when you have to remove 1 mechanic just because the other one is not guaranteed to hit WITHOUT looking at any other facts else, that is just pure wrong.

mi ramfanApr 14, 20151 votes

I've lost this post 3 freaking times now fsr so I'm doing cliffnotes instead of the big explanations I had planned.

{quoted}

When it can fail miserably it's not a "counter". Let's not even forget how spammable most skill shots are, and how mobile the champs who get to spam them are. You might as well say the counter to losing is to win.

The amount of skills it needs to consistently land skill shots is lower than consistently dodging them (amplified by the fact skill shots champs are also more mobile than point and click champs by default most of the time), what's the point of having a statement that "A counters B" but you need more skills to make A work? How's that a counter in the first place? When you need more effort to counter something you're supposed to counter, that's not a counter, at all.

Dodging skillshots can fail because your opponent can counter your attempt to dodge by predicting you. If your opponent is able to correctly predict your juke and aim his skill shot accordingly, he's thinking on a higher level than you are. It's a purely skill-based interaction.

Lock ons and skill shots were already balanced between them, only a few exceptions needed to be looked at the that was it. What's the deal with removing all point and click and replace them with skill shots when we don't need it?

I don't advocate removing all point and click abilities. Some champions need a point and click ability to function, and they should keep theirs. But for all point and clicks that don't NEED to be point and clicks, replacing them with skillshots would create more interesting gameplay.

Champions like say, Lee Sin the most mobile champion in the entire game, has 1 skill shot, 1 AoE and 2 lock on spells, 1 of them is ulti (which is also the strongest cc in the entire game). Or Zed having an point and click ulti despite being just as mobile? Then we also look at Nid or LB and their mobility on top of their spammable skill shots. Fair much?

Point and click is the answer to mobility creep, that's why it has to stay. Saying "you just need to dodge skill shots" when they throw out projectiles faster than you can handle, more mobile than your kit, and one that is also more overloaded, how is that fair of a judgement to say "skill shots have counterplay, you just need to dodge?". That's utter insanity.

Point and click spells do not counter mobility. Point and click spells have exactly the same effects on Kalista that they do on Kog'Maw; evasive maneuvers work against Lux's Q and are useless against Annie's Q.

Mobility is an entirely separate issue and I'd prefer to discuss that in a thread about mobility.

Because if we removed lock ons, who is more mobile will simply be better at dodging, the more mobile the more powerful a champion is. What is the thing that stops mobility again?

You should be predicting where your opponent will go when you aim a skillshot. This prediction should factor in your target's movement options. The "counterplay" skillshot users have to mobility is aiming better.

As for stopping mobility, I recommend crowd control.

Balance on the level between champions, argue just between 2 mechanics is like talking to air, it means nothing. And when you have to remove 1 mechanic just because the other one is not guaranteed to hit WITHOUT looking at any other facts else, that is just pure wrong.

I agree. That's why the decision to change a point and click ability to skillshot form or leave it be is a champion by champion, ability by ability decision. But from a general standpoint, skillshots indisputably have more counterplay than point and click abilities.

WheatloafApr 14, 20152 votes

They left Ryze's W as a targeted ability specifically because they liked Ryze's secondary identity as a champion that can reliably shut down mobility...

Raja ChachkiApr 14, 20151 votes

and then they nerfed the root duration, so they didn't like his "second identity" THAT MUCH xD

LissamaApr 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

all Qs must have counterplay

And: Anivia Janna Katarina Kassadin Leblanc Malphite Nunu Pantheon Shaco Shen Swain Sona Teemo Viktor

HailFire DragonApr 14, 20153 votes

its to reenforce ahri new playstyle.(or rather old pre charm damage amplification ahri)

Ahri is no longer an assassin which is how people played her, instead she is now a mobile ranged spell slinger whose constant damage is what kills you not a sudden 100-0 all in explosion.

FHMarshyApr 14, 20151 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=l3rancl

I mean, I was shitting real hard on that ahri as brand who relies mostly on skill shots :)

MartyrofsandApr 14, 20151 votes

But Swain, and Annie both have a Q that isn't a skillshot.

ElisaiApr 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

But Swain, and Annie both have a Q that isn't a skillshot.

Annie's Q doesn't do a grand amount of damage and you have to be close-ish annnddd you have to have passive stacked. Or kha'zix will just jump on her and 'q' her to death.

BerserkGoldfishApr 14, 20151 votes

well that may have been because he had a case of the Veigars.

2 second root isn't much compared to like Morgana, but then you remember hes a spammy mage that gets free damage and can kill most people in those 2 seconds.