Why Does Mordekaiser Have Health Costs?

OyddAWqJ5r··20 votes·2,126 views

I really don't know the answer to this. This isn't intuitive at all especially with how meaningless the shield gain is when it decays so quickly for such a high health cost.

The biggest one is his Q though. Why does this have a health cost? It requires him to be melee on a champion with 0 mobility or CC - not even a slow. And yet it comes with a health cost. Just doesn't make sense to me. Prime example of major risk with minuscule reward.

This design made sense back when he was released, since he was meant to be extremely strong and gain defense from attacking multiple targets, basically making him the 1 man teamfighting pentakill machine. But nowadays he deals pretty negligable damage especially for how much mobility he has, given champions like LeBlanc and Ahri have just about the same survivability but with far more (reliable) burst.

What I think should happen? I think health costs should be removed and early ranks of E should have a higher cooldown to emphasize the gap between when his shield is up and down during laning phase (especially since it'll become "free poke"). This is to follow Riot's philosophy of making clear cut strengths and weaknesses. His strength should be his ability to gain shield when attacking, letting him win trades. But the weakness should be the lack of shield afterwards where he is vulnerable and his abilities are on cooldown. Basically making shield management more of a pressing matter. Late game he should function the same other than ofcourse not having health costs. But that's only for his E. As for W and Q I feel they should stay the same since they require you to be in melee range which opens you up to poke and ganks. Mordekaiser's viability as a lane pusher shouldn't be touched (early E cooldown increases shouldn't affect this part of him at all).

Also, let him put his W on turrets! Gives him a little more in terms of counterplay to ganks during laning phase with the recent "magnetism" buff. As it stands he is one of the most gankable champions in the game if not the most.

I also think a big reason why no health costs would be a problem is the way his ult pretty much gives him his entire health pool back. This just feels like excess power if health costs are no longer involved and should probably be removed. And with that mechanic removed, there's more room to buff his base health pool or his maximum shield or both.

42 Comments

canpan147 votes

He has health costs because he has no mana costs + his abillities generate a sizeable shield. If he had no health costs he would spam away with a giant shield and you would never be able to deal with him early game.

OyddAWqJ5r8 votes

That is EXACTLY what he does right now. He pops a pot and clears a wave while being untouchable cuz of shield. 1 wave per pot. What I'm suggesting is actually adding a weakness to his gameplay and not just have him kill himself as his weakness. That's not fun.

Oh and Rumble has a shield and endless poke but no mana costs. His drawback is that when he spams too much he becomes a better melee champion than any top laner before being able to cast shield again. But for some reason the mobile, shield spammy and much more damaging champion Rumble isn't oppressive yet somehow Morde is. Care to explain?

canpan144 votes

You can't really compare mord and rumbles shield. Mords will just sit there forever as long as he doesn't stop doing things. Rumbles will just time out shortly. Also mord is easily gankable with no escapes/cc.

On another note mord has a very weak early game and can be poked down, along with his health costs he isn't hard to manage unless you are playing a melee champion with no clear.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Morde's relies on minions being present. Morde's also decays extremely quickly and costs health to gain. 2 of his ways to gain it are also melee.

Meanwhile Rumble has it pretty much on demand with a speed boost. No minions required.

And on that other note that's exactly why health costs should be removed. His damage was gutted, the costs should be too.

canpan148 votes

I think you are misunderstand a design point with mord. His shield isn't supposed to be like rumbles. It is supposed to be something he keeps up. Like how tryndamere keeps up his fury. The spammy nature of his q and e are there on purpose so he can spam them at the risk of losing his health fast. Players have to balance how they use those. If you take out health costs and raise the cooldowns he will just become boring and only have cooldowns to manage. Also it would be hard to keep his shield going which is a huge part of his kit.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Except Tryndamere gets damage and a big heal for keeping up fury while Morde gets a temporary shield that costs him almost the same amount of shield he gets in health.

Spammy abilities with low impact are boring. Meaningful longer cooldown spells that have meaningful risks and rewards are far more fun. Balancing how much health you are using while spamming sounds extremely boring and IS extremely boring. If you take out health costs and raise the cooldown to make decisions more meaningful, he will then have to manage his opponent instead of his health. Which sounds alot more fun than watching your health bar as you push.

And the shield shouldn't just be constantly up during laning like it is now. Counterplay counterplay counterplay. Where's the counterplay? There is none, Morde is an oppressive laning champion because of it and thus received plenty of nerfs for it. His only weakness is gank susceptability. You call that meaningful and fun? Heck no! It should be changed to be less boring, more meaningful and not have it's only weakness be ganks.

canpan143 votes

Morde gets a temporary shield that costs him almost the same amount of shield he gets in health.

The only time that would close to true is if he was level 1 running no runes and masteries and only hit like 1 target.

And he isn't even close to as spammy as ryze is. Both ways of playing can be fun. I swear it is possible. Why not raise everyones cooldowns in the game to 10 minutes. That will make it really meaningful /s.

The shield is only constantly up if he keeps using abilities as it drains at 3% per second. If he does he will lose a lot of health in the process so he has to be careful in balancing when he thinks he will need the shield, and when he should use his skills more carefully.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

Some abilities have more meaning on longer cooldowns, others with shorter ones. Morde's spammy E has no significance. It's just a spam spell to keep shield up. That's boring. And saying the counterplay to always having his shield up is that he is always draining his hp also sounds boring.

Where is the enemy laner in all this? Oh yeah that's right, farming under tower and not interacting at all cuz there's no point unless the jg is ganking. Sounds like a fun lane for both players.

canpan142 votes

If he spams away his e, he will have low health and leave himself open. You sound like someone who just played against a mord and is pissed off. Not someone who plays mord and has an honest opinion of him.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

You really just sound like someone who picked akali into morde or something and got shitstomped.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Does it really look like I'm trying to gut Morde? I haven't seen a Morde in awhile. Seldom now and then.

You sound like a typical ass trying to belittle someone with asinine assumptions.

Narasimha8 votes

Spammy abilities with low impact are boring. Meaningful longer cooldown spells that have meaningful risks and rewards are far more fun.

See, this is what is called an opinion. Meaning everyone has a different one.

For example, I have no problems spamming skittles as Karthus. It's quite fun, actually. It's like playing Whack-A-Mole. With exploding hammers. And the moles move. And the board is pretty big. And.... I lost the metaphor, didn't I?

Baron of Bread1 votes

Actually, I am pretty sure you won with that metaphor.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

No that's fine. I understand different playstyles are fun. But how about when Karthus Q spamming makes you have to leave lane because it costs so much health that the enemy laner doesn't even have to touch you?

Narasimha1 votes

I don't know about health, but damn if it doesn't chew through my mana. Hell, even the mana passive on E isn't enough.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

"I don't find this champion fun so rework them"

Your entire argument

I Main Swain1 votes

his early game is weak ONLY if you are a champ with great poke like ziggs or if you have incredibly powerful waveclear.

LICENSED HOOKER1 votes

its mord tho... hes naturally broken in a non kitable enemy team comp.

Gunpoint1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FEz1rxGe,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-17T13:21:27.495+0000)

That is EXACTLY what he does right now. He pops a pot and clears a wave while being untouchable cuz of shield. 1 wave per pot. What I'm suggesting is actually adding a weakness to his gameplay and not just have him kill himself as his weakness. That's not fun.

Oh and Rumble has a shield and endless poke but no mana costs. His drawback is that when he spams too much he becomes a better melee champion than any top laner before being able to cast shield again. But for some reason the mobile, shield spammy and much more damaging champion Rumble isn't oppressive yet somehow Morde is. Care to explain?

"Better melee champion than any top laner" lol. So exaggerated. Rumbles damage also isn't instant and he has to be facing you the entire time.

BeatzBoyFTW4 votes

After he uses his E to farm or whatever, take this chance to poke him down. He's kind of useless without it.

ChaosThief2 votes

I've been playing morde recently. These health costs are almost meaningless compared to the shield you get for hitting the entire wave + the enemy champion, which negates 50-80 damage for the 25 health he used to E.

He's fine as is. Enemies are simply too afraid to poke mordekaiser, which is what you should be doing more.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

50-80 shield is basically unpokeable. Less lane interaction = not cool. Hurting yourself is also not cool. But justifying hurting yourself by saying other people can't hurt you is pretty lame. You should have clear cut times where your shield will be up and when it will be down. It shouldn't just be permanently up as you demolish a wave without taking poke damage because of shield then back up and do it again until you inevitably die to the jungle gank cuz Morde has no mobility.

That sounds extremely boring and is extremely boring. Longer cooldown on E means more meaningful usage while the no cost lets you make this decision without the thought of "Is it worth how much I'll be hurting myself for?"

Laughing Fish1 votes

This is why it is worth it to buy tons of wards with mord. Every back max out your wards if you can. Always have 3 wards and a pink up at all times. Ward the bushs near you, the river bush, and the nearest enemy jungle camp. Since it is hard to burst down Mord due to this shield, you can almost always avoid dying to ganks if you have an unholy amount of wards. And since he is good at farming if he avoids ganks, you will make back the gold for wards fairly quickly.

Mandang02 votes

All of your focus on "significance" and the like is misplaced. His E is spammy because he needs it to be spammy to keep his shield up. Morde would be even more boring if his gameplay was hinged on a longer-cooldown, more-powerful shield spell. His shield is different than Rumble's shield because he can generate it from any ability and doesn't give up a damaging spell in doing so.

And like everyone's answered so far, it's because he doesn't have mana costs and his spells generate shield. After spell vamp, Morde doesn't have any of the problems you're complaining about.

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FEz1rxGe,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-06-17T08:19:26.697+0000) His strength should be his ability to gain shield when attacking, letting him win trades. But the weakness should be the lack of shield afterwards where he is vulnerable and his abilities are on cooldown.**

[{quoted}](name=Sleeper Cell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FEz1rxGe,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-17T13:33:43.901+0000)

Morde's relies on minions being present. Morde's also decays extremely quickly and costs health to gain. 2 of his ways to gain it are also melee.

Sounds like Riot's already addressed your problem of Morde's shield being reliant on fighting.

MadDoughnutz2 votes

I think there are a few reasons as to why, and I'll list a few

Reason One: Mordekaiser is an old champ. By old, I mean very old; his kit is hugely outdated and, while his passive is very unique and core to his gameplay, his abilities are not besides his ult. Back then, Riot was experimenting with manaless champions, and Mordekaiser was one of those. However, because of his spammy abilities and shield, he had to have a tradeoff, and to Riot back then that meant putting health cost on his abilities(Just to keep in mind, this was back when Mordekaiser top lane was Godlike and he rushed Rejuv bead and 20 health pots and then never died.) Nowadays, it's just outdated.

Reason Two: Balancing. Even if Mordekaiser had longer CD's, that wouldn't fix the issue of 'No Counterplay, Point and Click spellcaster' that he is right now. Sure, there is counterplay to how you fight him in terms of outranging him and positioning properly, but that's not what Riot really appreciates in a kit. Right now, Mordekaiser has a supposedly weak early game, and he should: A Mordekaiser that gets ahead STAYS ahead and can easily 1v2 or 1v3 due to his shield and the ability to quickly turn that 1v2 or 1v3 into a 2v1 or 2v2 due to his ult if he kills someone with it(And a fed Mordekaiser will have the damage to do so). So having the health costs stay right keeps him from being an utter bully to low range champs in the early game.

I'm not saying Mordekaiser doesn't need buffs right now, but his kit besides his passive aren't really workable in their current state while maintaining a 'healthy' gameplay pattern that other players can fight against and enjoy according to Riot, which makes him a very iffy champion to mess with balance wise. Unless they rework him.

junglerboy162 votes

Basically, (and this applies to all champs with health costs) HP costs are a way to gate a champion's early game in a significant way where they would otherwise be oppressively strong, while allowing them to scale exceptionally well into late game as if they are resourceless. For Mordekaiser in particular, not only are his health costs negated partly by generating a shield, which creates a bit of a skill differential between the player who lands their damage to get effective health back and the one that doesn't get's no reward, but his abilities are also DoT and AoE centric, which are the 2 strongest forms when interacting with spellvamp. Late game, his health costs are so negligible that he may as well be resourceless, but they are enough to encourage a certain build style (usually heavy sustain) and gate his early game (otherwise you would never get him out of lane).

Scorpionex2 votes

How bout keeping the health cost but he eats through his shield as he uses the abilities boom done now you can buff him:P

bartuc661 votes

Boom....Indeed. I would love if his cost ate through his shield before his health pool.

Stiv12341 votes

"It would be too oppressive." - Rito

Saianna1 votes

Because he isn't Riven with super long cooldowns and low damage

Rebonack1 votes

Give him mana costs and remove the HP costs?

That would allow Riot to tweak the shield gain on his abilities to make them a little more impactful early in the game since running out of resources would actually be a thing that happens. You can't get something for nothing.

Unless you're Riven.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

If you were around back in Season 1, he was a huge early game bully, capable of shoving lanes in quickly and being untradable in lane due to his huge shield and high base damages.

This is Season 5, where so many lane bullies, spammable CC, kiting, mobile, burst, champions have been introduced and Mordekaisers original nerf/rework made his original strength fairly obsolete.

TLDR: He needed those costs so eventually he had to go back to base originally. Remember 13 Health potion mordekaiser... WAS a thing.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

But this is no longer an issue. Yes I played back then. He is severely gutted from that iteration and 13 pot no longer exists.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Riot isn't the fastest on the ole updating or hitting the appropriate balance levers.

I'm sure Mordekaiser's full scale rework will be impressive in ~3 years.

Zarxis1 votes

I think the health costs are relevant to Mordekaiser's lore/thematics.

He should keep them, but he should be given a form of CC and/or mobility (more than the W "magnet" effect) and rebalanced accordingly.

ElJanitorFrank1 votes

Well basically, it's a different playstyle. You don't seem to like the playstyle too much and think there's a problem with it, but honestly it just doesn't fit you.

OyddAWqJ5r1 votes

Playstyle is one thing. You can retain the playstyle. I don't see what health costs have to do with it. No health costs = lower max shield at start higher at end and/or higher base hp.

It'll work functionally the same but actually have counterplay.

Annunziato1 votes

The one core weakness to Mordekaiser is if you manage to zone him from your minions, he's basically going to twiddle his thumbs at tower. He can't do much without his shield, and his spells are so short ranged that farming can be difficult if position yourself properly.

Dunkrius2g1 votes

If you really want to deal with health costs, here are your solutions. Spell Vamp Quints. item 1054 item 3145. Thats all you need. when you ult oh damn, youll be full hp (especially when you see a fat ass gragas with 3.5k hp or a support with tons of health but no MR, cuz oh damn, your gonna get a LOT of HP). Q a single minion and you get real spell vamp. Once you get 20% spell vamp and some real ap, you'll see the spell vamp in action. Early game is his nightmare. If you survive that, then you just gotta be useful is someway. If you can ult adc and they stay in that fight, thats is a free ace. With this build, item 3152 item 3020 item 3151 item 3116 item 3157 item 3089/item 3135 . This will make you a very big threat. If you managed to ult someone, then he will die for sure, not because of your ult, but with rylai's 10 sec slow.

TL;DR Survive early and be a menace mid-lategame. The health costs are there for early. If riot feels like they will remove his health costs, they will do it. Have spell quints and these items item 1054 item 3145 to never worry about the health costs.

Doctor Dyment1 votes

Would you rather have Mordekaiser have mana costs? Or rather have no costs at all, allowing him to become an unstoppable monstrosity that dominates everything in sight?

thinking man1 votes

It's to keep him from being completely retardedly oppressive in lane and they don't matter too much late-game.

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