On the topic of new meta/APC bot, here's a Mage that works really good with a melee Supp:

Valhalla Rising·Jan 1, 2017·5 votes·1,928 views

Great last hits and trades with passive, well rounded damage sources, and she helps her ally almost as much as they help her.

15 Comments

WoonStruckJan 1, 20174 votes

Lacks the siege potential of Ziggs and needs levels too much.

Ziggs works bot because his passive+W. In addition, his waveclear scales largely off gold, rather than levels due to extremely low Q CD and amazing ratio. W/E are mostly zoning tools when he's brought bot lane.

Ziggs is not played bottom because APCs are viable bot; they are not yet.

APCs other than Ziggs will likely only be viable bottom as a response to Ziggs, though it will be EXTREMELY limited since most very much need 6/9/11/13 levels ASAP to function well.

AhristocatsJan 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Lacks the siege potential of Ziggs.

LMFAO

her attack speed is the highest attack speed of all mages, with 500 AP she does nearly 300 damage per hit with 1.00 attack speed

If someone approaches her? Q+W+E removes 50% of the hp from a tank and oneshot a squishy with almost no counterplay

Ziggs can take a tower faster, Orianna can take it with like 5/6 sec but she can zone people unlike ziggs

WoonStruckJan 1, 20173 votes

And you think any of that happens during laning...because?

Ziggs has much more tower taking potential pre-11.

Post 11, he remains a better siege champ because he can nearly instantly blow up towers with W+passive+lichbane.

Nobody said she's bad at sieging, but she definitely lacks the siege potential of Ziggs.

AhristocatsJan 1, 20172 votes

Pick orianna

see her siege pre-11

then come back here

WoonStruckJan 1, 20172 votes

Pick orianna bot

see her siege pre-11

then come back here

AhristocatsJan 1, 20172 votes

you think that ziggs sieging pre-11 is as strong as ADC?

he needs AP to do damage he needs CDR to reduces the cd of his passive which i remind is reduced by everytime you cast a spell he needs mana/mana regen to spam spells to siege

Orianna pre-11 is just a little weaker than ziggs pre-11 because she doesn't have damage on structures, but ziggs pre-11 is also weak when he sieges

WoonStruckJan 1, 20172 votes

you think that ziggs sieging pre-11 is as strong as ADC?

I think his occasional tower whacks are better due to passive. Sitting there autoing? Definitely not. But neither is Ori's.

Its his scaling that makes it worth picking him for siege. If it was JUST potential early first tower due to W, he wouldn't be picked bot. He would just fiesta his way down from mid.

he needs AP to do damage

So does Ori. ADCs need AD to do damage.

he needs CDR to reduces the cd of his passive which i remind is reduced by everytime you cast a spell

Its more about the burst he does to towers as he gets AP, not the DPS.

he needs mana/mana regen to spam spells to siege

Ori's is worse early on via waveclear/zoning.

Orianna pre-11 is just a little weaker than ziggs pre-11 because she doesn't have damage on structures, but ziggs pre-11 is also weak when he sieges

Ziggs early is mostly about W/the small bonus passive provides early and simply having better waveclear than ADCs at various points. Of course he's weak early when he sieges. Pretty much everyone is outside of maybe Olaf, Mundo, or Tryn depending on how risky you want to be.

Ziggs' 25% nuke at rank 1 is still damn strong for taking first tower.

FireDrizzleJan 1, 20172 votes

If Syndra gets her late buffed, she would be great bot. How could a adc lane vs Syndra?

Asayake 5150glowJan 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If Syndra gets her late buffed, she would be great bot. How could a adc lane vs Syndra?

Braum

AhristocatsJan 1, 20171 votes

orianna has one of the best roaming potential

picking her support instead of mid is a waste

Valhalla RisingJan 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Sona x Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FBbbpTns,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-01T12:00:17.027+0000)

orianna has one of the best roaming potential

picking her support instead of mid is a waste

read harder

AhristocatsJan 1, 20171 votes

alright my bad, there was a lot of posts on orianna support those times

Still, picking her bot instead of mid is like taking twisted fate bot to siege, it's a waste those champs are mid because they have an amazing roaming

5000000000000000Jan 1, 20171 votes

You don't need to use all parts of a champion's kit to be effective. Like E max Nasus or Veigar support. We should be comparing bot lane Orianna pick with other bot lane picks, not with mid lane Orianna.

(That said, I'm pretty sure she's still weaker than most bot laners)

TargonJan 1, 20171 votes

Another champion that I think could work as an APC botlane, in particular against Ziggs, would be Xerath . He can punish Ziggs incredibly hard with his larger range and mana sustain and can make it so that Ziggs has a much harder time chunking down your turret.