Lethality buffs and ADC's - We've come full circle.

Danny DeVito·Feb 3, 2017·31 votes·2,690 views

Wasn't one of the big points of reworking armor pen items like Cleaver, Duskblade, Ghostblade and Maw to discourage ADC's like and from always building them and practically dealing true damage?

Well I dunno if you're paying attention, but for example lets take . Before the assassin update, you would typically see them building

After the update, you saw many players going back to the old Essence Reaver into IE/Rapid Fire Cannon sort of deal.

Now this patch comes out and players are building core again.

Maybe Jhin wasn't the best example, but practically every ADC is doing it now. Even the champions these items are intended for are taking it way too far- - and above others. Why? Didn't you just shut down your whole point of the assassin itemization rework?

BOTTOM LINE: IF YOU ARE AN AD CHAMP JUST BUILD LETHALITY NO MATTER WHAT THE CIRCUMSTANCES

41 Comments

ModCaptainMårvelousFeb 4, 20178 votes

Sorry can't hear you the "ADC 2017 LUL" train is too loud.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 5, 20171 votes

Choo Choo

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20177 votes

it's more interesting than crit builds and has the trade-off of a weaker late

keep it imo

Very Hard EngageFeb 3, 20171 votes

their late game is indeed weaker compared to crit, but it still kills a squishy carry in 1 rotation all the same and thats all that matters. tanks cant front line very well.

Big LincolnFeb 3, 20174 votes

everything can kill squishys quickly

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20179 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAehhZ9K,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-02-03T19:18:15.265+0000)

it's more interesting than crit builds and has the trade-off of a weaker late

keep it imo

only if not combined with % armor penetration, which is my biggest gripe with lethality.

lategame, the amount of available flat armor pen has increased to almost 100. combined with an item like item 3071 or item 3035 it barely cuts into lategame dps compared to crit builds.

Big LincolnFeb 4, 20172 votes

yeah i think that needs to be altered, but lethality on its own isn't too offensive.

possibly, if you purchase lethality then % shred/pen items are not allowed to be built? would mess up my Garen build but im willing to make that sacrifice

DoseqisFeb 4, 20172 votes

I think just making lethality have a diminishing return would be better. Lets say the first bit is 15 amor pen for 20 lethality or so then on 40 lethality it is 25 and so on, stacking is just too strong and gives practically true damage

NodirjonSattarovFeb 4, 20177 votes

it's not as interesting when the trade off really doesn't matter when games end early. late game champions (in this instance kog'maw, surprise) already have a disadvantage in the early - mid game (bad early game damage, little poke, mana costly abilities). then comes builds where the sole purpose of the items are to get ahead and stay ahead. so when you say "weaker late" do you mean at 24 minutes? or ACTUAL late game which is supposed to be 35-40 minutes? even then a jhin will still oneshot me with full lethality. with me gone it becomes a "attack whoever is cc'd" which isn't hard for jhin since his E is nearly instananeous. get the fuck out of here lmao

NineTailedMysticFeb 4, 20171 votes

It also makes ADC abilities really oppressive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gy8Sewq6EU

On top of allowing ADCs to absolutely demolish squshies instead of being Tank busters. Oh wait, BC and LW allow Lethality builds to dump on Tanks too. Don't forget how it allows ADCs to bypass their weak early.

DoseqisFeb 4, 20171 votes

My problem is they can still 1v1 crit ADCs late game due to having near one shot burst with all the armor pen

Critmaster GarenFeb 3, 20176 votes

they didnt actually rework cleaver.

i still dont udnerstand why theyre not reverting the recipe to item 3067 + item 3044 and increase the health back to 400 and reduce the ad to 40.

it would make the item still usable by everyone, but it would favour bruisers with high base damage over adc and assassins who want the ad more than the health... you know. the type of champion, the item is aimed at.

ZephyrDrakeFeb 4, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=FAehhZ9K,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-02-03T23:09:28.998+0000)

they didnt actually rework cleaver.

i still dont udnerstand why theyre not reverting the recipe to + and increase the health back to 400 and reduce the ad to 40.

it would make the item still usable by everyone, but it would favour bruisers with high base damage over adc and assassins who want the ad more than the health... you know. the type of champion, the item is aimed at.

because the item is not meant for bruisers? it's meant for the likes of Riven and Fiora. You know, light skirmishers/fighters those type of champions not some bruiser that is going to build tanky

bbQsauçeFeb 4, 20172 votes

[deleted]

DarkeusFeb 4, 20171 votes

Maybe Riven but definitely not Fiora.. She is finesse.

Critmaster GarenFeb 4, 20178 votes

{quoted}

because the item is not meant for bruisers?

it is. thats its main purpose.

other classes of champions might be using it, but the thing is meant as a core item for spell based fighters, and their needs should be considered first before everyone else, when it comes to making changes to cleaver.

they literally made this thing for champions like renekton, darius, garen, and with their reworks even increased their synergy with the item (darius bleed effect to physical to apply the armor shred, garens spin increased number of damage ticks to apply cleaver stacks faster)

it was also meant as a secondary item for assassins like pantheon and talon. but with the assassin rework, they got their own itemization, so changing cleaver slightly to benefit bruisers more than assassins and adc shouldnt be an issue.

h5LYF41LamFeb 3, 20174 votes

some adcs were never meant to build crit like lucian and varus ezreal. adc=/=crit.

INoble KnightIFeb 4, 20171 votes

Technically Ezreal is a mage that's played like an ADC

morris1Feb 3, 20173 votes

Is it that difficult for them to give ranged champions the old formula and the melees the new one? Marksmen would still get to have their late game if they want to get a Youmuu's or Duskblade but won't spike hard at 1 or 2 items.

420 gramsFeb 3, 20173 votes

Like how they reworked stealth to give counter play by removing pink wards, which was the only way to counter play it.

LankPantsFeb 4, 201710 votes

Like how they reworked stealth to give counter play by removing pink wards

They didn't rework stealth/vision to give stealth counterplay, they reworked it because stealth was useless if people spent 100 gold to counter it.

HibekiFeb 4, 20172 votes

Yeah and then people spend that 100g now and its gone in an instant and fucking evelynn over here sneaks around the entire map undetected

Seriously why havent they reworked her yet

InstaPoppyFeb 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Yeah and then people spend that 100g now and its gone in an instant and fucking evelynn over here sneaks around the entire map undetected

Seriously why havent they reworked her yet

Evelynn still gets revealed by control wards, nothing changed about her.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 4, 20173 votes

Stealth is still stupid as hell and obnoxious to play against without any counterplay except praying you hit an aoe spell somewhere.

LankPantsFeb 4, 20173 votes

The counterplay to stealth is respect and knowledge. There's not much you can do to reveal a champion, sure but you can still work out roughly where they are and play around it.

Let's take Wukong as an example, we'll say he has 400 MS for simplicity, it's going to be around that number anyway. We know his stealth lasts 1.5 seconds, so in it's duration he can move 1 Caitlyn AA range away from where he stealthed. Draw that circle around his decoy mentally, rule out retarded directions to run (he probably didn't run towards top wall or stand still). When you do this you have a blob of area he can be in, if you treat all of this area as Wukong and don't walk into what would be his E range he can't E on you unless he flashes.

You play around stealth rather than building against it. This is far better IMO.

JihyobdaFeb 5, 20173 votes

Let's put another example

Rengar uses his ulti in the jungle, i see the hunting thingy above my head, I run towards my turret... Shit I'm dead

HeroquetFeb 4, 20171 votes

Meanwhile item 3123 Soraka

LankPantsFeb 4, 20171 votes

I agree with you, I hate EC as an item. I'd prefer if it were removed and healing was just balanced at a sane level. Same goes for %Pen and Resists.

RacoonHunterFeb 4, 20173 votes

What they needed to do is make lethality not work on ranged basic attacks. it's kinda stupid to have say a quinn who rushes ghostblade/duskblade/Edge to be able to 3 shot a tank naut (It literally happened in a normal game I just played.)

either lethality needs nerfed again, or they need to make duskblade/ghostblade melee only or so. it's kinda stupid how there's literally only ONE real path to win games as a marksman and that's pick a lethality marksman, and just get so far ahead it never reaches late game (super easy to do btw)

Nameless VoiceFeb 4, 20171 votes

Items that are purchaseable on all champions but randomly have missing effects on some of them would be really, really confusing.

Yes, right now there's mana (which is useless for manaless champs), but that is at least fairly obvious.

Other items with ranged/melee distinction are either unbuyable by one class, or else merely have a reduced effect for ranged.

Shuyin178Feb 3, 20172 votes

All Riot has to do is drop the benefits ranged champions get from the stat, simple as that. Give them 75% effectiveness with it and they'll stop.

Meep ManFeb 4, 20172 votes

I don't think item 3071 has been touched actually

INoble KnightIFeb 4, 20173 votes

yeah but this build keeps creeping up item 3071 item 3142 item 3147 item 3036 item 3072 item 3046

DerfelFeb 4, 20172 votes

Riot's insignia is a picture of ghostcrawler's body curved into a circle with his head deep in his own anus.

Rend The DawnFeb 3, 20171 votes

item 3147 is quite terrible on Jhin, but item 3142 item 3814 are great as the 1st two items. Though first was the highest win rate build last patch.

Auz the RipperFeb 3, 20172 votes

i actually find the new duskblade to be quite good on jhin, certainly better than the old one. run lethality runes, rush it, and by the time you get it it's around a bonus 120 true damage which can easily be reset.

Automated RivenFeb 4, 20171 votes

if an adc outside of vayne and maybe twitch is invisible for a full second in a teamfight one of two things is happening. Most likely happening in both situations is the adc is playing wrong. Option number 2 is that the opposing team is playing really badly not to just ward to bush that the jhin walks into in between every auto to reset the passive.

on the occasion that you were talking about using it to poke the buff only lasts for 4 seconds after being seen again. and if a enemy is consistatnly being attacked by a jhin walking back and forth into fog of war then they really deserve to lose.

edit I can see corner case situations where cait could maybe use this ish tying with her traps. but not very well and very very important to have a dumb enemy.

The DeckownerFeb 4, 20171 votes

idk why they dont just rework crit.at this point

Latex ChokerFeb 4, 20171 votes

Been building lethality on a ton of AD champions, it's silly how well it works, even on champions like Camille and Yi who deal a ton of true damage. Especially since Edge of Night is a more reliable Banshee's Veil that gives AD.

Sraeg2013Feb 4, 20171 votes

1**.** Adds Lethality to make flat armor penetration weaker early. 2_._ Champions building Lethality are slightly weaker as intended. 3_._ Buffs Lethality to be equal or BETTER than pre-Lethality flat armor pen.

http://replygif.net/i/131.gif

LXIIFeb 5, 20171 votes

Lethality STILL isn't as strong as old flat pen early. It doesn't scale to full value until your enemies are level 18 (and let's be real, nobody hits level 18 in this snowball meta).

Yes, it's a strong stat. But it's not what everyone is making it out to be. If Lethality Cassiopeia was running a train on people then we'd have an issue, but that's not the case.

I personally enjoy being able to play ADCs, Fighters, etc, without having to use the same boring builds we've been force fed for the last... well forever.