Remove the spell vamp on Lee's W

Kingsgrave·Dec 23, 2014·101 votes·5,952 views

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION PURPOSES: Lee Sin's W, Iron Will, currently gives him 5/10/15/20/25% Lifesteal and Spellvamp for 4 seconds dependent on rank. I am suggesting we remove Spell Vamp so he can only heal from autoattacks during his W. Potentially increase the Lifesteal to 10/15/20/25/30% or 15/20/25/30/35% if it seems too drastic to take away the spell vamp

To balance Lee Sin I think we need to take away certain random bonuses instead of focusing on nerfing his core gameplay.

He doesn't need Spell Vamp since he already has lifesteal, although this would impact some of his dueling and jungle which is honestly fine given how well he can gank and teamfight at pretty much any point in the game.

75 Comments

RebonackDec 23, 201441 votes

Lee Sin ranged, melee, tanky DPS, assassin, mage, tank, support, jungler.

He excels at everything.

MaxxstonDec 23, 201412 votes

Which is, of course, sooooooo healthy for the game. :(

The Red WardenDec 23, 201424 votes

Just wait till a lee sin main says "but he would be useless without it" even though the removal would barely change the way anyone plays him.

It also doesn't fit his theme at all; a martial artist beats his enemy with his fighting skills not stealing their life essence with vampiric magic.

Also for the love of god don't say he needs it cause THE PLAYZ.

Raise DongrsDec 23, 20143 votes

It's so his E helps him sustain a fight and give him a boost of HP (As it applies magic damage). It's not stealing life, it's giving him a surge of willpower, or as the name states; "Iron Will"

MaxxstonDec 23, 201412 votes

[{quoted}](name=Raise Dongrs,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2014-12-23T17:34:31.904+0000)

It's so his E helps him sustain a fight and give him a boost of HP (As it applies magic damage).

That's not how spell vamp works. Spell Vamp returns HP based on ability damage, not magic damage. I.e., if I'm Pantheon and have 20% spell vamp and chucking spears all over the place (doing physical damage), I get 20% of the HP back of each spear's damage because it is a spell (a.k.a. an ability), not because of the damage type.

Put another way: life steal effects auto attacks and spell vamp effects abilities (regardless of dealing physical, magic, or true damage - it even applies to damage from Smite).

So Lee Sin's spell vamp applies to all of his damaging abilities.

GaleWinUnleashedDec 23, 20144 votes

The only exceptions to those rules are specifically stated in ability tooltips. Specifically "applies on-hit effects."

MaxxstonDec 23, 20141 votes

Absolutely correct, I just couldn't remember exactly how the rules worked with them (e.g. Nasus Q, or Sheen, or Ezreal Q, or Fizz W Active), and felt like it was a minutiae that could be left out.

Also, I think it's technically "on next hit" effects, not "applies on-hit effects" that are the ones that act strangely.

GaleWinUnleashedDec 23, 20141 votes

Nasus Q is weird, it applies the lifesteal to the bonus damage. Most next-hit spells won't do that, and only apply it to the base AD that goes along with that attack.

OyddAWqJ5rDec 24, 20141 votes

I think the way it works is that attacks that add a bonus onto the basic attack don't have lifesteal applied but attacks that increase the damage of the next attack do.

What I mean is Siphoning Strike deals 100% of his basic attack damage (or his AD) plus the base damage plus stacks. So it's 100% AD + Base + Stacks.

While an ability such as Vi's Excessive Force deal its base damage + AD/AP ratios on top of her basic attack.

So attacks that replace the basic attack damage apply lifesteal while the ones that add bonus damage on top of it don't. If that makes sense.

DontBanMeImDrunkDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

That's not how spell vamp works. Spell Vamp returns HP based on ability damage, not magic damage. I.e., if I'm Pantheon and have 20% spell vamp and chucking spears all over the place (doing physical damage), I get 20% of the HP back of each spear's damage because it is a spell (a.k.a. an ability), not because of the damage type.

Put another way: life steal effects auto attacks and spell vamp effects abilities (regardless of dealing physical, magic, or true damage - it even applies to damage from Smite).

So Lee Sin's spell vamp applies to all of his damaging abilities.

actually, i think it only works for magic damage (i saw a red comment on this). Lifesteal works for most abilities i believe.

JimmyyyDec 24, 20141 votes

{quoted}

actually, i think it only works for magic damage (i saw a red comment on this). Lifesteal works for most abilities i believe.

Lifesteal doesn't work for any abilities at all other than auto attack modifiers, like Rengar's Q or Riven's Passive or even Shen's Passive.

Auz the RipperDec 24, 20141 votes

Lifesteal applies on any physical on-hit damage Rengar's Q and riven's passive will actually proc lifesteal (if you don't believe me, you can look it up on the wiki or you can test it yourself very easily) because they're both physical damage. shen's passive doesn't because it deals magic damage

This also goes for items, BotRK will proc lifesteal but wit's end and Nashor's will not (not sure about muramana because it's coded weird).

Basically anything that's part of the red number when you AA will Actually proc lifesteal

KingsgraveDec 25, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=000100000000000200000000,timestamp=2014-12-24T17:10:55.198+0000)

Lifesteal applies on any physical on-hit damage Rengar's Q and riven's passive will actually proc lifesteal (if you don't believe me, you can look it up on the wiki or you can test it yourself very easily) because they're both physical damage. shen's passive doesn't because it deals magic damage

This also goes for items, BotRK will proc lifesteal but wit's end and Nashor's will not (not sure about muramana because it's coded weird).

Basically anything that's part of the red number when you AA will Actually proc lifesteal

It applies to all physical damage AND all on-hit damage, including magic damage.

Warwick's ult and Poppy Q works with lifesteal.

Auz the RipperDec 25, 20141 votes

Most on-hit Magic damage doesn't apply lifesteal

Warwick's ult specifically states that it applies lifesteal and is coded to do so

And poppy has really old and weird coding so I wouldn't be surprised If her Q applied lifesteal

DeathByWaffleDec 24, 20142 votes

{quoted}

actually, i think it only works for magic damage (i saw a red comment on this). Lifesteal works for most abilities i believe.

Spellvamp works for all spells, physical or not. Lifesteal works only for autoattacks and spells that apply on hit effects, such as Ezreal's Q.

BushidoBladeDec 23, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2014-12-23T17:09:58.160+0000)

Just wait till a lee sin main says "but he would be useless without it" even though the removal would barely change the way anyone plays him.

If it doesn't change the way that anyone plays him, then why would you remove it?

It's a completely harmless benefit, and it has been a part of his kit since his release.

and another thing is that Lee didn't get anything for the removal of his attack speed debuff on tempest, so at some point you can't keep gutting his kit or he will no longer be a Lee Sin.

How many times will noobs post on a forum to get X nerfed, when in fact they weren't adjusting their play style for the enemy team composition? It's like bitching that enemy team Katarina is wrecking face, but none of you or your team decided to bring even one form of cc or displacement. You lose the right to cry about it if you don't select your champions accordingly.

Also, counterplay to Lee is very simple. Just dodge his Q and you won't find yourself Insec'd into the enemy team. :)

The Red WardenDec 23, 20149 votes

Let me ask you this then: If you need to reduce a champion's power would you rather have them nerf their iconic abilities that give the champion their identity or the extra tidbits that don't effect the play-style but are there only to give the champion unneeded strengths.

Why does lee sin need the spell vamp when he already has life steal and the attack speed boost on his passive to increase that life steal? I am not asking for his core mechanics, his identity, to be removed, what I am asking for is the removal of an unnecessary benefit that only adds free power.

Yes, the attack speed debuff's removal did only come with a health regen buff (that was later nerfed), yet he is still thought of by most of the player base as one of the strongest champs in the game. The removal of spell vamp would do the same thing in that it removes a portion of the champ that only added power instead of giving the champion interesting dynamics in how they are played and how they are contrplayed.

You know that "dodge the skill-shot" excuse kind of lost its effectiveness after Riot reworked Nidalee for exactly this reason. These champions barely face any consequence for their actions, yet the second you make one mistake they screw you over with no possibility to fight back.

SpecterVonBarenDec 23, 20142 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=000100010001,timestamp=2014-12-23T22:17:43.229+0000)

Let me ask you this then: If you need to reduce a champion's power would you rather have them nerf their iconic abilities that give the champion their identity or the extra tidbits that don't effect the play-style but are there only to give the champion unneeded strengths.

Why does lee sin need the spell vamp when he already has life steal and the attack speed boost on his passive to increase that life steal? I am not asking for his core mechanics, his identity, to be removed, what I am asking for is the removal of an unnecessary benefit that only adds free power.

Yes, the attack speed debuff's removal did only come with a health regen buff (that was later nerfed), yet he is still thought of by most of the player base as one of the strongest champs in the game. The removal of spell vamp would do the same thing in that it removes a portion of the champ that only added power instead of giving the champion interesting dynamics in how they are played and how they are contrplayed.

You know that "dodge the skill-shot" excuse kind of lost its effectiveness after Riot reworked Nidalee for exactly this reason. These champions barely face any consequence for their actions, yet the second you make one mistake they screw you over with no possibility to fight back.

Not that the Nid rework really changed her gameplay of, make one mistake and get hit by one spear and you're dead, aside from adding to it that now you also can't walk on one of her traps or the same happens. Though at least there are more steps to the process now.

The Red WardenDec 24, 20142 votes

I still hate her, I was just using her to put down the "just dodge" excuse. At least now though, you have a chance of surviving a spear instead of just instant death if you find yourself to be its victim.

BushidoBladeDec 24, 20142 votes

The entire premise of your discussion hinges on the hypothesis that you believe that Lee needs a nerf when he really doesn't.

As you would have others believe, is that Lee is overpowered because of his versatility. The problem isn't that Lee is too versatile, it's that other jungler options are NOT. We need more diversity in the jungle and more versatility, not less!

Spell vamp on Lee is unique among other AD assassins who do not get this benefit, but aside from that matter, the spell vamp benefit still requires Lee to activate 80 of his energy. It was earlier stated that Lee would not readily activate the Iron Will in the heat of a battle because it would take from his energy pool, and it could hinder Lee's use of his other, more important skills.

If Lee doesn't benefit from the skill in battle, then you want to nerf it so he has a weaker sustain in jungle only. Nearly every jungler role has innate sustain in their kit design to combat the fact that junglers are constantly taking damage from their camps in order to farm, which no one else does.

If every jungler has sustain built into their kit, why would you argue for removal from only one of those junglers?

the answer is simple: you're trying to gimp a champion. so just stahp.

Lee has been released for something like 2 1/2 years already and if you haven't adapted to him by now you should probably just choose another game instead of trying to get some peoples' favourite champion nerfed.

Please just learn to play against Lee, find out what works and what doesn't work for yourself instead of resorting to asking for nerfs because we all know that this is the least viable solution for you to deal with this problem in the immediate future.

DesertOfSandDec 24, 20142 votes

There's plenty of diversity in the jungle. They're just all gated behind Lee Sin being the obviously superior pick for 2 and a half years straight.

Lee Sin still has innate lifesteal. He still has sustain even without spell vamp. Plenty of junglers do fine without any sustain at all, I'm sure Lee Sin will be fine without a SECOND unnecessary form of sustain.

Despite nothing but nerfs since his inception, Lee Sin has still been one of if not THE top jungle pick for 2 and a half years straight. If you don't think that's a problem, you're delusional. I don't want him nerfed to the point of not being viable, but at some point Lee Sin needs to give up that throne.

DeathByWaffleDec 24, 20143 votes

But... But...

e$ports!

The Red WardenDec 24, 20141 votes

So you would rather have a few champions who do everything, instead of multiple that each effect the game sofferently?

If some champs can do everything why would you ever pick the ones that are more niche.

AveriaDec 24, 20143 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2014-12-23T17:09:58.160+0000)

Just wait till a lee sin main says "but he would be useless without it" even though the removal would barely change the way anyone plays him.

It also doesn't fit his theme at all; a martial artist beats his enemy with his fighting skills not stealing their life essence with vampiric magic.

Also for the love of god don't say he needs it cause THE PLAYZ.

It actually really really really fucking hurts his clear, whether or not you realize it lee sin relies on that spell vamp to sustain the jungle. If they removed it they could certainly buff other portions of his kit but if not he would become literally unplayable.

The Red WardenDec 24, 20144 votes

People said the exact same thing about his attack speed slow's removal, yet he is still one of the strongest junglers.

Most of that sustain that you think is coming from the spell-vamp is actually the life steal which is increased further by the attack speed boost that is granted every time he activates an ability due to his passive.

That life steal is granted for 5 whole seconds during which you can constantly keep up the passive's attack speed buff thanks to it's energy regen and Lee's ability to always have another ability to cast (every normal ability is actually 2).

Lee Sin needs a nerf anyway due to being better than almost everyone else in the game, and I think most people would rather have a piece of their champ removed that doesn't change their main play style instead of the nerf/ removal of more iconic parts of the champion.

AveriaDec 24, 20141 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Red Warden,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=000100020001,timestamp=2014-12-24T03:49:57.336+0000)

People said the exact same thing about his attack speed slow's removal, yet he is still one of the strongest junglers.

Most of that sustain that you think is coming from the spell-vamp is actually the life steal which is increased further by the attack speed boost that is granted every time he activates an ability due to his passive.

That life steal is granted for 5 whole seconds during which you can constantly keep up the passive's attack speed buff thanks to it's energy regen and Lee's ability to always have another ability to cast (every normal ability is actually 2).

Lee Sin needs a nerf anyway due to being better than almost everyone else in the game, and I think most people would rather have a piece of their champ removed that doesn't change their main play style instead of the nerf/ removal of more iconic parts of the champion.

You think the spell vamp on his % hp and smite damage doesn't sincerely affect his first and second clear? Please. I dare you do 1 clear without W>W>Qing or W>W>Smiting?

it's a lot of health for him to lose. Again he can easily get buffs in other places of his kit to compensate, but to just remove the spell vamp he would literally lose his entire jungle efficiency. I'm not saying his kit isn't overly strong and doesn't have a lot of random stats in it, I'm just saying that to remove something like that from his kit would really fuck his early game which is what he's known for.

The Red WardenDec 24, 20146 votes

I am not saying the life steal should be removed, I am only arguing for the spell vamp's removal. You already are able to sustain yourself with the life steal and attack speed boost that accompanies it.

Besides in the early game how much does that 5% (you are probably only going to put one point into the skill before level 6 which is when almost everyone finishes their early clears) spell vamp really effect him. Are you saying that maybe the 20 health you can't gain back now, matters that much?

If you want to see a weak clear go play a tank jungler like Naut.

jmaishereDec 24, 20141 votes

RIP my jungle amumu from the jungle change

OrdersDec 23, 201421 votes

Junglers that clear fast should not have sustain.

AbyssphereDec 23, 201413 votes

I can agree with this. I definitely think the best way to treat Lee Sin is to remove the random additional crap he gets for no reason. What need does he have for Vamp? None at all. But he gets it anyway.

WiriusDec 23, 20147 votes

Remove Lee Sin's teammate dash. Why he gets a gap closer and a point and click escape as a melee is beyond me.

JunkοDec 23, 20146 votes

Jax, Katarina, etc...

OrbvDec 23, 20144 votes

I don't know why everyone was downvoting him. I'm pretty confident he meant that Lee Sin is considered Melee but has 2 gap closers.

The only people with 2 Gap Closers are --> Akali, Diana, LeBlanc and Fiora. And he doesn't play like any of them.

JunkοDec 23, 20143 votes

Katarina can potentially have 2 gapclosers. Zed technically has 2 as well if you ult from the right spot. Fizz also has 2 gapclosers. Kassadin theoretically has infinite. Then there is Riven with a whopping 4.

OrbvDec 23, 20142 votes

I originally was referring to 2 separate abilities that gap close, but then gave bad examples -____-, my mistake.

But as for junglers with 2 Gap Closers, Lee is the only assassin, with J4 and Vi also having 2 but being more so initiators.

Baron of BreadDec 24, 20141 votes

I think Wirius was trying to point out that Lee Sin can go in and then hop back out in case anything went wrong, while most other champs (Jax, Fiora, Diana, etc.) are stuck in the fight once they go in.

Yes, Jax and Kat can hop to wards, but they have to get cooldowns before they can get back out. Lee Sin gets to have his ward hop on a separate ability so he doesn't have to wait for anything. Lee Sin makes a bad choice and then suffers a short cooldown and a bit of missing health as a penalty. Anyone else gets killed.

One ayyed kingDec 23, 20147 votes

Honestly I wouldn't really mined if they removed the life steal and spell vamp from iron will and just remade it into a more interesting skill.

You look around lee sins kit and you have all the awesome abilities that can combo together in unique ways and then there's iron will, which just sits there as the block of power with no real game play attached. The only think its really useful for in combat is the spell vamp smite a creep to help you live with low HP. Iron will is just a boring poorly designed skill.

It used to have a purpose, back when it gave armor it was clear that this was a skill used to mintage damage when lee sin goes in, now its just passive sustain to make sure he always has more HP then you. Id honestly prefer if they returned its usage back to damage mitigation.

KingsgraveDec 23, 20144 votes

[{quoted}](name=Least Pro Lee NA,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F7mza234,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2014-12-23T18:42:24.594+0000)

Honestly I wouldn't really mined if they removed the life steal and spell vamp from iron will and just remade it into a more interesting skill.

You look around lee sins kit and you have all the awesome abilities that can combo together in unique ways and then there's iron will, which just sits there as the block of power with no real game play attached. The only think its really useful for in combat is the spell vamp smite a creep to help you live with low HP. Iron will is just a boring poorly designed skill.

It used to have a purpose, back when it gave armor it was clear that this was a skill used to mintage damage when lee sin goes in, now its just passive sustain to make sure he always has more HP then you. Id honestly prefer if they returned its usage back to damage mitigation.

The reason they removed the Armor and like the sustain better is because the former is not interactive and the latter is. You have to use abilities and hit people to mitigate damage if you have sustain, if you have resistances you don't need to do anything to mitigate damage.

I would like them to shift it to lifesteal so that you have to actually fight things with your fists as a martial artist to mitigate anything.

One ayyed kingDec 23, 20143 votes

That might have been the plan but that's not how it works. Its very rare lee sin needs to use iron will in combat, in fact its discouraged because it waste energy, the only time you will see a lee sin with his iron will on is if he either sustaining in the jungle or if he made a mistake and doubled tapped safeguard(there is also the spell-vamp smite for a bit of HP during a close fight, but that's pretty rarely used).

The reason the armor was more interactive then the sustain is that it only lasted a few seconds. You needed to time your activation of iron will to your enemy unloading their physical damage on you to make the most of it. The sustain on the other hand can be activated mindlessly in the jungle to insure that lee sin health stays high.

In the end it simply comes down to iron will being a boring skill. When compared to the rest of his kit it just feels so out of place. Everything else in his kit flows together so nicely and the sustain from iron will just feels like a bit of tact on power.

TheKingDodoDec 23, 20143 votes

Why didn't riot go through with that lee sin rework ~6 months ago? the one that nerfed his early game spell damage, but buffed his passive tremendously? I think this would really work well on that other lee.

XenohazDec 23, 20141 votes

Can you post a link to that? I hadn't heard of it but it sounds interesting to read.

TheKingDodoDec 23, 20147 votes

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/27676-lee-sins-changes-patch-4-5-itemization-brush Was one of the early versions, then they buffed slightly due to fan boy cries, then they removed it entirely :( it's 9 months ago... how time flies :(

KingsgraveDec 23, 20143 votes

{quoted}

http://www.reignofgaming.net/news/27676-lee-sins-changes-patch-4-5-itemization-brush Was one of the early versions, then they buffed slightly due to fan boy cries, then they removed it entirely :( it's 9 months ago... how time flies :(

The entirety of the pro scene was angry with it

DryditchDec 24, 20144 votes

I don't see the difference. Pro scene = Fan boys

KingsgraveDec 25, 20142 votes

{quoted}

I don't see the difference. Pro scene = Fan boys

If anything those changes would have just solidified Lee Sin as the go to late game utility character and made his overall gameplay a lot less swingy, which wouldve been a + for everyone involved.

Oh well.

BudupopsDec 23, 20143 votes

rip ap lee sin

Tin TarantinoDec 23, 20141 votes

I think the previous changes were meant to actually affect Lee Sin, this pretty much does nothing aside from a slight sustain nerf in the jungle, and not even a major one since a lot of Lee Sin players don't even seem to use the smite+W.

The Red WardenDec 23, 20145 votes

The only type of Lee player that the change would effect is the professional ones, since they are the people who really dig into champion mechanics with all that they can. Seeing this the pros may actually switch to a different champion sometimes and because most of Lee's popularity (I believe so anyway) comes from how often he is used in professional play, his play rate would drop the less he is used. Besides the less people seeing him spammed in games the less number of people spamming the "nerf lee threads"