I just found the perfect term to describe Cassio's passive

Kowe The Ewok·Oct 13, 2014·62 votes·5,560 views

It's Delayed Scaling. Riot (Stashu) tends to call it hyperscaling. Fact is, hyperscaling has no ceiling. It can always go higher. Delayed Scaling actually means that you don't have access to your abilities' scaling. Which in my eyes is ironical simply because the term scaling already includes the delayed access to power. Making scaling itself scale leads to horrible earlygame values, while lategame values - opposed to hyperscaling - have a ceiling.

60 Comments

The Queen ViperOct 13, 201463 votes

There's already a term for it: Trash.

Kowe The EwokOct 13, 201429 votes

There's already a term for it: Trash.

I don't disagree. I hate the rework since it completely ruined her playstyle as a lane bully. That being said, I can't stand how Stashu constantly says he gave her "hyperscaling" because it was simply wrong, inaccurate and misleading.

Long Dong WukongOct 13, 201413 votes

Because for some reason the idea of 1000 AP makes people think that it's really hard scaling

But then her bases and ratios are trash

Kowe The EwokOct 13, 20144 votes

Because for some reason the idea of 1000 AP makes people think that it's really hard scaling

But then her bases and ratios are trash

We should prolly start playing Q + Lichbane instead of E.

FiskOct 13, 20142 votes

Considering that her E has a 60% scaling on a .5 second cool if you are doing it right, I don't think its her damage that is the problem. Think about this, IF she has her full 1000 AP or whatever 155 damage +(60%) is 755 damage per hit. On a .5 second CD thats 1500 dps off of that alone. That's pretty ridiculous and probably top 3 damage outputs in the game.

Serpents EmbraceOct 13, 201411 votes

That's still less than what it was.

Literally all of her abilities are less than what it was.

And all the passive does is force you to build heavier AP than you ever would before so you can have access to the same levels of damage she used to have but now it's all funneled through her E which was never her main appeal to begin with. Twin Fangs was a reward for hitting your poisons. Similarly to how Anivia's Frostbite was an award for CCing her opponents. It was the icing, not the cake.

FiskOct 13, 20141 votes

She can now increase her damage by 77% (with correct masteries and deathcap) Up from ~30..... That is a very powerful increase... Even with lower scalings thats better late game... Also I think it's healthier for her character if the damage is on her E as it is an inherently more powerful ability and not a DoT ability (which cause problems).

How Do You MetaOct 13, 20149 votes

She can now increase her damage by 77% (with correct masteries and deathcap) Up from ~30..... That is a very powerful increase... Even with lower scalings thats better late game... Also I think it's healthier for her character if the damage is on her E as it is an inherently more powerful ability and not a DoT ability (which cause problems).

All they did was make the ratios so low that until she gets a fully charged passive and death cap can she do anything near her original ap ratios, it wasn't as much of a rework than as it was just a heavy restraining nerf.

Serpents EmbraceOct 14, 20149 votes

I have to max out a stacking mini game AND build what Stashu wants me to do to be able to match what I could do before with a more flexible build path.

Stop calling that "power". At best, all this rework has done is glorified a five minute theorycrafting session this lazy designer had about an idea HE got about the champion.

The player base at large disagrees. The original champion introduction of Cassiopeia disagrees. The concept she originally was is so far off of what she is now it's disturbing - and it's not even a good change. She's not only less viable now - she's less fun.

Where is the win? Increased damage by 77% at some imaginary point in a hypothetical game?

I'm not going to say it, but you know what choice words I've got for you, "friend".

How Do You MetaOct 14, 20141 votes

I have to max out a stacking mini game AND build what Stashu wants me to do to be able to match what I could do before with a more flexible build path.

Stop calling that "power". At best, all this rework has done is glorified a five minute theorycrafting session this lazy designer had about an idea HE got about the champion.

The player base at large disagrees. The original champion introduction of Cassiopeia disagrees. The concept she originally was is so far off of what she is now it's disturbing - and it's not even a good change. She's not only less viable now - she's less fun.

Where is the win? Increased damage by 77% at some imaginary point in a hypothetical game?

I'm not going to say it, but you know what choice words I've got for you, "friend".

Well they didn't increase her damage by 77%, they made it that when she gets that increase she gets back to dealing similar damage to when she had the original ap ratios.

FiskOct 15, 20141 votes

Increased ap by 77% when you hit the final passive stack and have rabadons and have the correct masteries.. Actually won't even take that long... Also you are welcome to pitchfork but I wouldn't hold your breath on them reverting cass's damage... She will get other kit fixes I would imagine but her concept is actually pretty solid and her damage output is good. I realize that many of the player base liked old casseopeia but that doesn't mean she was a healthy champion or even balanceable for that matter. You can currently call it a nerf and you would be right but I think they are trying to take her in a direction that will lead to her being a viable and competitive champion. As for your "choice words", you are welcome to be upset but I don't really see how that helps on the internet. I'm not here to be your "friend" I'm here because I'm interested in peoples opinions and interested in A. arguing a devil's advocate (circle jerking OP) and B. sharing thoughts on this.

336KMlmYm9Oct 14, 20144 votes

That's still less than what it was.

Literally all of her abilities are less than what it was.

And all the passive does is force you to build heavier AP than you ever would before so you can have access to the same levels of damage she used to have but now it's all funneled through her E which was never her main appeal to begin with. Twin Fangs was a reward for hitting your poisons. Similarly to how Anivia's Frostbite was an award for CCing her opponents. It was the icing, not the cake.

To be fair, her E was very much supposed to be her main source of damage. It was obvious from her design, and they said as much during her original champion spotlight video. They'd just given Noxious Blast such a high AP ratio on so spammable an ability that it was extremely potent and, in many cases, stronger than her E.

Otherwise, I agree. They nerfed all her abilities other than her maxed E just so they could give her a passive that was theoretically extremely powerful, only it's become pretty clear that said passive wasn't quite so strong as they had believed.

Serpents EmbraceOct 19, 20142 votes

Main source, sure. In the same way that Frostbite is Anivia's main source of damage, but yet I see her pick up plenty of shit by well timed Q's that double hit and letting her R tick someone out if E wasn't enough. Cass can no longer let poisons finish off a target because unless she kills with her E she won't be killing at all. It didn't focus E as her main source of raw damage because that was already the case - it just made it her only source of damage.

And why even spout bullshit about Q being more powerful than E? So what if it was? Should it not be, in certain situations, when kiting was more important than damage output ( a possibility Stashu doesn't believe exists apparently). Do you think spamming the E key is what gave Cassiopeia that 100 difficulty rating? No, it was hitting Qs reliably. E may have been her main damage source, as it always was, but Q was what held it together and without the damage or the proper cooldown on the fucking thing it can't do it's job even as Stashu has put more pressure on players to have it function better than before, while making it worse and less effective around the board.

There's no defending it. Even trying to defend it is sheer idiocy. The passive is trash. The damage changes are trash. The cooldown changes are trash. None of these things should have ever left the drawing board, but they were still allowed to somehow as if quality is no longer any priority for the design team.

Daedalus871Oct 14, 20145 votes

Agreed.

Viegar scales harder with the AP Cass builds than she does.

Kowe The EwokOct 15, 20142 votes

Agreed.

Viegar scales harder with the AP Cass builds than she does.

Yup. Ironically enough he has become the perfect counter pick to her. Having lost all her lane presence Veigar can freefarm. If she wants to E him he simply drops his stun. Lategame he laugh his hat off. Cassio's only viable build path leaves her squishy as hell, while he scales way better with her high numbers than she herself does.

HayaishiOct 13, 201425 votes

Even her late game feels worse than before

Kowe The EwokOct 13, 20149 votes

Even her late game feels worse than before

Because it's true. I takes a lot of E's for the damage that's lost when hitting more than 1 enemy just once. Not to mention her ult was nerfed as well.

JunkοOct 13, 20146 votes

Because in a 1 hour game, you still probably won't get 400 stacks of your passive unless the enemy team is dumb

BasedRaccoonOct 13, 20141 votes

Because in a 1 hour game, you still probably won't get 400 stacks of your passive unless the enemy team is dumb

Does her passive not also get stacks from minions?

QuephaOct 13, 20147 votes

Does her passive not also get stacks from minions?

one per cs of a poisoned minion. when was the last time you got 400 cs in a game?

Janna WindgaleOct 15, 20142 votes

I had 400 stacks in pretty 30-40 minutes. Due to gettings stacks from champions with W and gaining stacks from minions with Q and E

ShumtasticOct 13, 20142 votes

Because in a 1 hour game, you still probably won't get 400 stacks of your passive unless the enemy team is dumb

Took me about 40 minutes the last time I played her. I finished the game with 1057 AP.

Kowe The EwokOct 13, 20147 votes

Because in a 1 hour game, you still probably won't get 400 stacks of your passive unless the enemy team is dumb

Took me about 40 minutes the last time I played her. I finished the game with 1057 AP.

Let's recall the time pre WotA abuse, when Cassio still was considered underpowerd and underplayed - at that point she had a 0.9 scaling, now it's 0.45. So what are 1057 AP worth? 0.9x = 0.45*1057 x= 528.5

**You would have needed less than 529 AP for the same damage on Q. ** With less delay and 3s CD.

So yea, the AP numbers might seem high - if you afk stay at yoru lane, don't roam, don't do - and the game lasts long enough. In the end the scaling is so horrible that the AP numbers are worthless.

Her passive is the worst thing that ever happened to a champion. They have to undo this rework.

DukargOct 13, 201420 votes

Eh, just stop playing Cassiopia. Any champ they do stuff like this to is because they don't want that champ played. Don't break the meta. No point in waiting around for them to "fix" something they don't think needs to be fixed. And yes I liked the old Cass better. Wish they wouldve just buffed her hp / armor / magic resist and she wouldve been fine.

RaptameiOct 13, 20141 votes

Eh, just stop playing Cassiopia. Any champ they do stuff like this to is because they don't want that champ played. Don't break the meta. No point in waiting around for them to "fix" something they don't think needs to be fixed. And yes I liked the old Cass better. Wish they wouldve just buffed her hp / armor / magic resist and she wouldve been fine.

Actually they did it to break botoflegends.

Expect Vayne/Syndra changes for the same reason.

Kowe The EwokOct 13, 201413 votes

Eh, just stop playing Cassiopia. Any champ they do stuff like this to is because they don't want that champ played. Don't break the meta. No point in waiting around for them to "fix" something they don't think needs to be fixed. And yes I liked the old Cass better. Wish they wouldve just buffed her hp / armor / magic resist and she wouldve been fine.

Actually they did it to break botoflegends.

Expect Vayne/Syndra changes for the same reason.

Doesnt lead the change to more bot of legends since the only viable spell left is E?

lorewiseOct 13, 20144 votes

That makes absolutely no sense. If they wanted to actively encourage people to* not *play a champ it's far more economical to just bludgeon it with the nerf bat than spend the time and money on a complete rework.

I mean come on...

soulbanana8Oct 13, 201413 votes

One of the major problems is that she has more of an early game kit with a passive, scaling, and ratios that are meant for late game. She's not tanky enough to stay near the frontlines and her range is pretty short for her to be a backliner.

questirOct 13, 20148 votes

And that's why Cassios passive is probably the worst designed ever

How Do You MetaOct 13, 20148 votes

This was not a rework, this was an execution. They didn't make her more powerful than last time, all of her abilities are the same but now she had all of her ratios annihilated and then the passive does make up for it very very late game, it isn't exactly easy to stack that passive either you know, not even Ryze is this much late game oriented as the "new" Cassiopeia.

She died for our sins, but it was not enough.

Genova FearbaneOct 14, 20146 votes

Cass's late game scaling allows her to deal a decent amount of damage.

The only problem is she has little or no early or mid game capabilities and it takes forever to get her stacks. While she may be a late game carry, she never makes it to late game.

chumblerOct 15, 20145 votes

Here's a better phrase for it "Shit design by a moron."

CanastusOct 15, 20142 votes

Sion Is THIS what passes for hyperscaling!?

FeathermaneOct 14, 20144 votes

Actual quote from Stashu: "It's not a farming passive :("

What a cunt.

How Do You MetaOct 13, 20143 votes

One other thing I don't understand is why they make her passive that way either. Her passive restores a small amount of health, gives her a bunch of CDR that she can easily buy in the many items that give CDR already for mages, a big AP boost, and other small things, but all this happened was make her other ratios suck and instead of being a mage that deals a lot of AOE damage, she became a single target duelist with her twin fangs, which makes her actually more of a ranged fighter mage abomination than anything else because that is all she can do now. I don't get how changing her passive and then nerfing her is called a rework honestly.

It basically erased her whole identity of being a poisonous snake, now she is just a run of the mill fighter. Snakes kill things over time, now she just has to spam her twin fangs like Soraka used to do because her poison no longer is potent.

They defanged her and then still think she deserves to be a snake/cassiopeia/cleopatra but really its nothing now.

Janna WindgaleOct 15, 20142 votes

Because she is completely nerfed right? It's not like her passive gives you 20% CDR no, instead let's complain about her damage output. Which I don't even know why you guys are argueing about it. Champions will change. Get used to it otherwise play a different game. Sorry for being like this guys, but nearly every champion so far people have argued about their changes are after 1-2 months. "This isn't even as bad". I love the new Cass more than the old one. I have more laning sustain against champions.

People still go 21/9/0 in the masteries as Cass. Why not try something else if you know that you are going to have a 30% AP increase on your passive when you reach 400 stacks and even 5% AP increase on your 175th stack. Isn't it time we try some diversity on the champion?

Kowe The EwokOct 15, 20142 votes

Because she is completely nerfed right? It's not like her passive gives you 20% CDR no, instead let's complain about her damage output. Which I don't even know why you guys are argueing about it. Champions will change. Get used to it otherwise play a different game. Sorry for being like this guys, but nearly every champion so far people have argued about their changes are after 1-2 months. "This isn't even as bad". I love the new Cass more than the old one. I have more laning sustain against champions.

People still go 21/9/0 in the masteries as Cass. Why not try something else if you know that you are going to have a 30% AP increase on your passive when you reach 400 stacks and even 5% AP increase on your 175th stack. Isn't it time we try some diversity on the champion?

You mean that 20% and more which was added to her base cooldowns? The 20% are NOT a bonus, but something taken away from her and included in her passive. Actually it's even worse. Her Q used to have 3s CD now it has 4. Meaning 33% cooldown was added.

The Queen ViperOct 15, 20145 votes

Because she is completely nerfed right?

From what she was before? Yes.

It's not like her passive gives you 20% CDR no, instead let's complain about her damage output.

And what is Cass going to do with that 20% CDR? All her dmg is locked into E that has a STATIC 0.5 CD which cannot get any lower. What's your point?

Which I don't even know why you guys are argueing about it.

Yes you don't, since you have no idea what you are talking about... which is also why you probably shouldn't be posting here in the first place.

I love the new Cass more than the old one. I have more laning sustain against champions.

Well you certainly did something wrong with the old Cass then, since she was far superior to this version what we have now.

People still go 21/9/0 in the masteries as Cass.

Really? I though the typical AP mage setup was 21/0/9... personally I don't know anyone who runs masteries differently from that.

Why not try something else if you know that you are going to have a 30% AP increase on your passive when you reach 400 stacks and even 5% AP increase on your 175th stack. Isn't it time we try some diversity on the champion?

The problem Cass has now, is that it's IF you are going to have the 30% AP... if your enemy or team has a brain, the game is already over before you reach 400 stacks.

ceaselessphantomOct 15, 20143 votes

Because she is completely nerfed right? It's not like her passive gives you 20% CDR no, instead let's complain about her damage output.

Its nice to see that you think Cass has much use for cdr.

The best part is how this rework favors using her e. An ability which cdr 's impact is almost none existent.

Why not try something else if you know that you are going to have a 30% AP increase on your passive

Maybe it has something to do with that her base damages were largely nerfed in exchange for this free passive? It will take her 286 ap before the 30% increase to reach even her old single target damage (if you do not land w). With only the 10% buff she will never reach her old single target damage unless she does not land q.

But I see your point. I guess she could build more defensive to reach her late game. What is the worst that could happen from having a mid laner who does no damage till late game? or to reword it a mid laner that does no damage unless your team reaches late game.

(Oh if you were wondering it was 466.666666 ap before 30% increase to break even if they are poisoned by w. Though I am not counting that the e rate is now up do to checking before it hits the target. But I do not know the old e travel time.)

Ariel the CruelOct 13, 20141 votes

not looking to disagree. But by your definition: the game's only hyper carries are Thresh, Vieger, Nasus, and Sion. They're the only champs with an ability that can give them infinite of something (and therefor never hit a "ceiling"). Everyone else has a cap. Vayne, Kog, Trist, Fiora, Anivia. All hyper carries, but lack infinite anything.

OrbvOct 13, 20145 votes

The thing is that those champions are simply "CARRIES" because they can carry a game. They do not scale drastically better than every other champion who is considered a carry. After 6 items, their stats are static. Not every ADC can carry a game. Varus will not carry a game, he does not have enough in his kit to do so, but that is his role and he is expected to perform the same.

Hyper Carries should only be in reference to those whose stats can continue to grow, making it hyper scaling. So yeah you're right, his definition is limiting but it's correct.

That is how they were described in Dota, Dota2, HoN, Smite etc.

ceaselessphantomOct 14, 20142 votes

not looking to disagree. But by your definition: the game's only hyper carries are Thresh, Vieger, Nasus, and Sion. They're the only champs with an ability that can give them infinite of something (and therefor never hit a "ceiling"). Everyone else has a cap. Vayne, Kog, Trist, Fiora, Anivia. All hyper carries, but lack infinite anything.

I would have liked this post had you not said that Fiora is a hyper carry.

FiskOct 13, 20141 votes

Actually I think her being deemed as a hyperscaling is fairly accurate. Hyper scaling doesn't really mean infinite, it means that these champions are going to be the strongest champions at the end of the game (stronger than almost all other champions) which she actually is if you look at the pure amount of AP she gets. I think there is an actual number (I think its if they can increase their damage by a factor of at least 1.67x or something close) and while I'm not really feeling up for the math I think she gets close since she gets 30% increased AP and built in CDR allowing her to build even more damage than is customary. Her problem isn't with her scaling man, it the fact her kit is so unsafe in lane and even later in the game that she really can't get her damage off. IMO it really has nothing to do with her bad early game scalings, she makes up for that with DOT, low cooldowns and massive amounts of AP late game. No, it is definitely because of larger overall kit problems.

Tapu FiniOct 14, 20148 votes

Pure AP means nothing if your ratios don't allow you to capitalize on it.

Yes, she gets a ton of ap now, but until she's almost fully built, she can't even break even.

FatebornOct 13, 20141 votes

I played her a few times. It wasn't difficult to get the passive to the full stacks. It only took me around 20-30 minutes on average to reach full stacks. I don't really understand what's the problem. She's the same high skill-cap champion she always was with the same ridiculous high damage. You're just playing her wrong.

Kowe The EwokOct 13, 20147 votes

I played her a few times. It wasn't difficult to get the passive to the full stacks. It only took me around 20-30 minutes on average to reach full stacks. I don't really understand what's the problem. She's the same high skill-cap champion she always was with the same ridiculous high damage. You're just playing her wrong.

How often did you roam and help your teammates, how useful were you in objective fights? How many matches are decided after 18 minutes? Seriously, try sweetmouthign this horrible passive.

FatebornOct 13, 20142 votes

You do realize it's impossible to get 400 stacks off minions alone? By 20-30 minutes at least. So of course I did. Major of the stacks were from Champions poisoned. It's not that hard. She's actually a viable bot lane carry with a decent support at her side.

Also. I was responsible for the game's victory alone. I single-handedly carried my team with just three finished items. She's still a hyper-carry, but much earlier than the old hyper-carry. Seriously. Just try her. I don't main her, but I can see her strong merits in a team game. No doubt pro teams will soon start playing her.

Plus Cassi can kill Vayne in three shot. She's literally the definition of ap marksman.

Tapu FiniOct 14, 20147 votes

Did the other team happen to be bronze V with zero clue how to play the game? Seriously, play her against people that know what they're doing and watch how fast you lose the lane, and the game.

If the enemy team is really letting a Cassiopeia get to their hypercarry, they're probably not good players. It's beyond easy to stomp with just about any champion if the enemy team is clueless.

The Queen ViperOct 14, 20142 votes

Played few times in where and with what account? You only have one game with her from 5 months ago and even that is in ARAM... cool story bro.

Anyways, sure getting full stacks is easy when you are playing in BOT and Normal games, however the problem becomes apparent when you go play ranked games with her, where most of the time you are playing against decent players who know how to play this game. It's not that hard to deny those stacks from Cass so that she would be forced to get them from minions.

Currently she's so bad that she cannot compete in mid lane anymore, so going Top is the best choice if someone wants to play Cass in the first place.

FatebornOct 14, 20141 votes

PBE. I'm not revealing my pbe account due to an incident I had long time ago. I played maybe 30 games of cassi in PBE before I stopped going to PBE. I'm going to need a new rune page for cassi to at least succeed in ranked if I want to play her on live since my mmr is platinum+ meaning the players will at least focus me at all point. Despite the pbe's amount of bad players, there are actually still good players, so I do run into them occasionally, they did try to deny me but I ends up profiting from it because to deny me the stacks means free golds from minions, they have to choose, let me farm, or let me harass them, there is no option of not having both since Cassi is ranged. Harass her= free poison. Which is why bot lane is best lane for her. You don't REALLY need adc, just have some good physical damage that carry on all game regardless of weakness for jungler or top lane to fill in for the lack of adc bot. I finds Cassi+Thresh botlane to be particularly effective due to Thresh's peeling ability and get-out-jail card if enemy support has a strong engage to force Cassi out of commission. You could put Teemo bot lane for the hell of it and have him take e at level 2 at least and he should max q for blind vs adc. This will make Cassiopeia beyond broken afterward, since Cassi's e reset on poison regardless of origin. Trust me. She's powerful.