look guys, i get the whole never surrender thing

The Bard Dog·Jun 28, 2015·41 votes·3,982 views

i used to do it too. but there are times when i know for a fact that we wont come back.

its not very often i think a game is unwinnable, but when your jungler is 1/6, the enemy mid lane nasus hasn't been ganked once, and has 500 stacks at 20 minutes(1200 by the end of the game), its about damn time to surrender. "oh but we can still come back. not when bot lane thresh blitz are super fed, mid lane has 900+ stacks and incredibly tanky, and we haven't gotten one dragon. please people if you have a game like this where its just you slowly getting dominated so the other team can pad their stats, just do everyone a favor and surrender.

the only times i call for surrenders are when someone with an infinitely scaling ability get fed to stupid proportions, then its about time to call it quits.

52 Comments

MinrogJun 28, 201517 votes

It's not because of their champion picks / lack of map control / fed enemy champions, but because the team can't function as a team.

If the team can't agree on something as basic as whether a game is worth playing out to the end, what hope do they have of working together on anything else? Then you get the optimists (duo Q'ers mainly) who hold the rest of the team hostage for another 15 minutes while everyone sort of half-asses it and waits to die. That is why it's worth surrendering, probably, because the game has become a toxic experience.

Teridax68Jun 28, 20154 votes

This. I've had comebacks in even the most heavily stacked solo queue games simply because my team decided to start working together when the enemy team somehow fell apart. However, no matter how far ahead any individual members of my team get, if we can't function somewhat cohesively, the game gets really sour really fast, and the lead we had usually ends up drawing the game past the 40 minute mark into a slow, painful loss.

More often than not, though, I feel like a lot of players in the "no surrender" camp frequently refuse to surrender out of spite. For example, I've often seen top laners get a really good start when the rest of the team fell behind, who then stayed top all game, refused to participate in objectives and teamfights, and refused to surrender, blaming the rest of their team for losing them the game. On the flipside, I've also seen laners who had a really rough start and then went on tilt, blaming their teammates for not helping them and refusing to surrender because they felt their team deserved to suffer. There's a strong correlation with toxicity in this kind of behavior, I feel, and for this reason I think the surrender vote needs to work on a simple majority basis (or minimum 50% requirement if one or three players are disconnected), and not on a near-unanimous vote.

RoyaiChaosJun 28, 20152 votes

Ehhh, I've had those games and won. I've won a game where someone rage afked for a while but came back. It was mostly because the enemy team got cocky, but those games are still winnable.

SammystormJun 28, 20153 votes

Itg doesn't matter if they are winnable some games are just not worth playing because of the people on the team.

RoyaiChaosJun 28, 20152 votes

Ehhh, mute is a thing. And I would rather win my ranked games.

SammystormJun 29, 20151 votes

It is a thing but by the time you have to mute someone the game is already substantially less fun or you mute everyone from the start and lose communication.

RoyaiChaosJun 29, 20151 votes

Well I play ranked games to win, not to have fun. I would agree if it was a normal though.

MetalGearTeemuJun 29, 20151 votes

sounds like a problem with the team half assing, not the two optimists.

just saiyan.

Malix FarwinJun 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not because of their champion picks / lack of map control / fed enemy champions, but because the team can't function as a team.

If the team can't agree on something as basic as whether a game is worth playing out to the end, what hope do they have of working together on anything else? Then you get the optimists (duo Q'ers mainly) who hold the rest of the team hostage for another 15 minutes while everyone sort of half-asses it and waits to die. That is why it's worth surrendering, probably, because the game has become a toxic experience.

I agree with you on the toxic experience fully. I can understand why people wont surrender ranked but why willing stay in an toxic environment for normal games.

YossarianSenseiJun 28, 201511 votes

Late game Nasus is so overhyped

People don't understand what makes Nasus OP is that if he stacks fast enough, then he'll be ahead of the power curve thus relatively strong compared to everyone else on the map. The later the game goes on, the harder it is for Nasus to stay ahead of the curve - that's the law of diminishing returns.

Nasus is strongest in the mid game, assuming he was able to stack early game

4th Chiming LambJun 28, 20156 votes

I figured out how to hurt Nasi: Beat the shit out of them early game. So far, it's worked: ONE, times.

FarRockBFJun 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Late game Nasus is so overhyped

People don't understand what makes Nasus OP is that if he stacks fast enough, then he'll be ahead of the power curve thus relatively strong compared to everyone else on the map. The later the game goes on, the harder it is for Nasus to stay ahead of the curve - that's the law of diminishing returns.

Nasus is strongest in the mid game, assuming he was able to stack early game

Yup...UNTIL LATE LATE GAME. If a game exceeds 1 hour (which we have all experienced then Nasus once again becomes a real problem since he can continue scaling beyond 6 items while the rest cannot. How do you deal with a full tank + LW Nasus with 1500 stacks??

HateDaddyJun 28, 20155 votes

A fed Nasus can be easily dealt with tbh

Malix FarwinJun 28, 201512 votes

{quoted}

A fed Nasus can be easily dealt with tbh

a fed nasus is basically full tank with the ability to almost 2 shot people, while you may be able to use all your team's resources to take him down there are still 4 other people on his team to contend with and that is basically the problem. either you blow everything to take him down or ignore him while he 2 shots your team and towers.

HateDaddyJun 28, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F2OEOfGl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-28T09:30:52.013+0000)

a fed nasus is basically full tank with the ability to almost 2 shot people, while you may be able to use all your team's resources to take him down there are still 4 other people on his team to contend with and that is basically the problem. either you blow everything to take him down or ignore him while he 2 shots your team and towers.

It depends on the circumstances

You don't try to fight him mid game when nobody has penetration items but if we are talking late game where everybody has items, Nasus isn't that great

But if he's fed and everyone else is too, well you're pretty boned

ParessJun 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Malix Farwin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F2OEOfGl,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-28T09:30:52.013+0000)

a fed nasus is basically full tank with the ability to almost 2 shot people, while you may be able to use all your team's resources to take him down there are still 4 other people on his team to contend with and that is basically the problem. either you blow everything to take him down or ignore him while he 2 shots your team and towers.

yeah, a fed nasus is always a problem. If he knows he can be taken down in fights, then he'll splitpush, until you come, and his mates will pressure too.

BigPooStormJun 28, 20151 votes

It depends how fed everyone else is... I mean if your team also has a fed Vayne + Ori with Thresh or Janna to peel, then sure. But if no one else on your team is really that fed and I have 600 stacks + 10 kills at 25 minutes, I'm going to be running down your team 0 fucks given and there's nothing you can do about it.

FantasySniperJun 28, 20151 votes

How?

4th Chiming LambJun 28, 20154 votes

I like it when both teams have a Nasus, but the scoreboard is 11-49. It's around 30 minutes in, and that surrender vote pops up. "no, well be fine guys, we have late game" Oh my fucking Tryndamere. This is when that "Leave Game" button starts to look REALLY tempting...

A Miss FortuneJun 28, 20151 votes

rightclick2win

Summonerrr 1Jun 28, 20154 votes

I always set aside at least an hour to play a game, because my longest game on record is 72 minutes. I don't AFK on principle, so when a surrender vote gets started unless I know that it will get intentionally drug out by the enemy team, I usually don't /ff if it lasts less than 40 minutes, and I find myself 50/50 on the ay/nay vote after that anyway.

I really hate saying this, but if you really feel THAT strongly like losing that badly just to save half an hour of time, as an individual it would suit you better just to afk, since people have gotten suspended for idling before. an AFK just nets you a low priority queue as long as you're not religious about it. You don't like that a surrender vote isn't passing?

Fine.

But at least have the principles to stand up for your individual beliefs and not be held hostage by a group mentality that you happen to disagree with, especially since that group mentality has the advantage of the majority.

Average game length is 30-45 minutes, treat it as such.

AnidanJun 28, 20154 votes

What in the world are you talking about? He's talking about surrendering when your team is amazingly far behind and there's no way they can conceivably win without going onto some show about World's Biggest Throws. And while throws happen, they're not common enough for me to want to play through every single miserable curbstomp I come across just to find them. I would imagine most people do set aside at least an hour for a League game because of how long they can get, but that has nothing to do with a desire to surrender. If I want to surrender a lost game it has less to do with saving some time and more to do with saving myself a headache and more stressful gameplay than I need to put up with over a long period of time.

This isn't only about saving time - that is a factor, though - it's also about fun. Being in a curbstomp is not fun, at all. We're simply taking the option that allows us to not have to put our teeth on the curb before an un-shirted man separates our jaw from the rest of our head and snaps our neck.

ahferroin7Jun 29, 20151 votes

The biggest reason to surrender is that you lose fewer LP in ranked than if you just lose.

ponkzyJun 28, 20153 votes

never give up never surrender

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1869918597/209778500?tab=overview

AsphodelNextJun 29, 20151 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fdcIwHKd_s

kile147Jun 29, 20153 votes

A game being winnable doesn't mean the game is worth finishing though. I just watched a game with WingsofDeath where his team was pretty far behind but they came back because of one good teamfight at the end of the game. However in that game not only were there no toxic players, but Wings was pretty fed (as TwistedFate ) and although the rest of his team was behind, all it took was one teamfight where they succesfully protected their carry to do well.

There are some games though where every single person on your team is 1-2 levels lower than even the weakest on the other team, and you know that you're not suddenly going to start working together better, or you've got someone on your team that is just constantly verbally abusing everyone on the team and you just don't want to continue. I like winning, I am a competitive person, but I play this game to have fun and some games you know just aren't going to be fun for anyone, so why keep it going?

finemw1Jun 29, 20151 votes

oh god i saw that game, the clench was awe inspiring.

kile147Jun 29, 20151 votes

It was awesome, and they won because Wings was really fed, so his team was able to overcome their overall deficit by playing around him. But when you have a teamfighting teamcomp and you consistently lose team fights, or your poke comp is getting out pushed and poked, you know that game is over.

AndyChronoJun 28, 20152 votes

Generally, I never surrender unless there are AFK's or Trolls on my team. Throws happen all the time in solo Q. Doesn't really matter how fed the enemy is if they get caught out and destroyed. Furthermore, IMO some of the funnest and most memorable games you will ever play (in any game or sport) are the ones where you came back and won from huge deficits. Robbing yourself of even the chance of that experience by surrendering early just lessens enjoyment of the game. Heck, occasionally you can even win games 4 v 6 when someone on your team is intentionally feeding:

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1803326920/48870114?tab=overview

Usually, if you are losing so badly that you feel the need to surrender, the enemy team is probably going to end the game soon anyway. The only time this wouldn't be the case is if they are stat padding, but extending the game like this also increases their chance of throwing. At some point the death timers become long enough that a single pick can result in a huge turnaround - something along the likes of Pick -> Baron -> 2 Inhibs -> Dragon and you are in control of the game again.

TerchioJun 29, 20152 votes

Maybe teams should get this mentality out of their minds and realize that Leblanc, Zed, and Lucian will eventually get fizzled out lategame and the game may not be over just yet. This is also barring the possibility that your endgame runes/masteries could be much better, and that your teamwork could actually pull through.

I have won a lot of games that the team wanted to surrender, and thus far, I haven't lost any that a surrender would have fixed. Turns out, refusing to surrender can only improve your outcome.

GundayMondayJun 29, 20152 votes

Dumb to surrender (in ranked) as long as comcast is in business. (Have won/lost countless games to the comcast gambit)

RedCrescentJun 29, 20152 votes

I used to do this all the time as well. Having come back after being away from this game for a few months, I'm far more likely to just hit "Yes" when it looks absolutely dismal. Even in ranked--especially in ranked. =(

ahferroin7Jun 29, 20151 votes

That's a good thing in ranked, see my other comments in this thread.

firsttimerop666Jun 28, 20151 votes

My personal opinion is the person whith the best stats/ gold on your team could make a 3v2 surrender vote or a 3 v 0 surrender vote work to eliminate troll heres a game i played with bots where we couldnt surender since it was 3 v 0 and it said surrender vote failed.

OGMBJun 28, 20151 votes

Hmm.. This is an interesting matter. In blind picks or "Pubs" I would rather surrender a losing game and move on to a new one then try to play it out for the "ip" like some people say. They would rather keep a game going on 30 more minutes for 20 IP then start a new game and have the opponents surrender @20 for 150 IP +. In ranked it is a different story.

I am personally against surrendering unless one of these two things occur

Having an AFK, and you aren't crushing them. If every lane and jungle are fed, and you have an afk, capitalize on this. If they stall out then it may become unwinnable unless there is a huge skill gap in the teams.
Intentional feeding, team doesn't care, or we have all fed a lil bit in lane. They will push through us and kill us soon, so we should start a new game or new chance.

Every game can be winnable; especially in the lower leagues. When things start to get around platinum it is harder to comeback, but I would strongly recommend fighting it out in ranked. On Pro Streams they don't surrender, because mistakes can be made.

Finally, NEVER SURRENDER IN YOUR PROMOS, OR YOUR DUO QUEUE PARTNER'S PROMOS These 3 games are the most important in your division. Even at high level keep fighting

CreationFlawJun 28, 20151 votes

If I know we won't win, I usually just ask for a mass rush at their midlane ᕦ(ò_óˇ)ᕤ

IcyPepperJun 28, 20151 votes

I'm more for "sometimes surrender," ya know? I don't like it when people give up too early, but I don't like games that last longer than they should.

DedriusJun 28, 20151 votes

Actually nasus is stronger midgame than lategame. He will be stronger at 500 stacks in 20 minutes than he will with 900 stacks at 45 minutes because there is more CC to kite him and the AD and Midlaner can more easily deal damage to him.

LowvyrJun 28, 20151 votes

I usually try not to surrender, but if we're getting absolutely curbstomped and we just can't fight them, and we can't really defend, then it's time to ff. Also, if a game goes on for more than an hour I'll usually toss up the ff no matter what just because I'm tired of playing and ready to move on to the next game. After about an hour the game just gets SOOOOOOO boring to me.

SammystormJun 28, 20151 votes

The only time I really surrender is when my team loses all outer turrets and is down kills with out responding with any turrets of our own. That usually means that the game has snowballed too hard.

Biff ManlyJun 28, 20151 votes

Ah but as the boards have taught us, and I quote, "Think how much you're learning ~~while being killed instantly over and over and staring at a grayscale screen of your pathetic level 6 champion's corpse~~ losing to a better team."

AelvrJun 29, 20151 votes

http://ak-hdl.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/webdr02/2013/8/27/14/anigif_enhanced-buzz-19817-1377626837-4.gif

Malzahard ModeJun 29, 20151 votes

I will say what i always say on this matter, any game that does is not surrendered CAN be won, it is not always PROBABLE to win, but you can. That being said, the time to surrender (if any) is when the GAME you are playing is longer fun, once the fun is gone from the game, it's time to get into a new one because if you're just getting stressed out/frustrated/angry over it, there's no point in putting more time into it because even if you win all of that negativity isn't going to be instantly relieved.

AsphodelNextJun 29, 20151 votes

I know a lot of people don't have fun at all unless they win, and view time spent losing as time wasted, and I sort of get that. But a lot of the time, I'm only going to play one game a day, so I may as well play it out and play for as long as possible since even if we surrender, I'm not going to be playing another. So most of the time, I just never surrender.

Calling for the surrender is fine; you feel like the game is lost, and you express your view that you would like to stop playing this game and go play another. And if you get your votes and the surrender goes through, that's fine by me. What isn't fine is when you don't get votes, then rage/flame/afk/feed because the vote didn't go the way you wanted. The rest of your team have said that they would like to continue playing, and you should respect their opinion.

Silents429Jun 29, 20151 votes

Look I will keep playing a game, but if someone types surrender and 2 people refuse to click yes or no, that's when it's annoying.

If the vote is 3/2 then I will try harder, if it's 3 vote yes, 1 no and the other guy refuses to vote then my morale continues to sink.

RUNAAANS HYDRAAJun 29, 20151 votes

My Flow:

Facing Reality Honestly > Stubborn Optimism > Tilting

ahferroin7Jun 29, 20151 votes

I agree wholeheartedly, although there are other things to keep in mind:

Team comp is significant (for example, if the enemy team has a who's soul furnace gets out of control, but your team has more than one champ who does %HP damage, things are still winnable)
If the enemy team manages to get Baron and/or 5th dragon and you have no turrets outside your base, it's almost certainly game if you don't ace them immediately (Even more so if they get both).
While it is possible to win a game where the enemy team has more kills, it is extremely unlikely beyond a certain point (the biggest kill count advantage I've ever seen for a losing team was 37, and that was also a hour and 15 minute long game where everyone on the winning team had a late game champ).

The other thing that nobody seems to notice however is that if you surrender in ranked, you lose fewer LP than if you lose outright (often less than half of what you would have lost otherwise). On top of that, if you surrender, you get more IP/XP/Champ Mastery Points than if you just lost.

Mr Sir LebowskiJun 29, 20151 votes

Always a chance even in the worst circumstances that your opponents internet can go out or RL can happen. RL happens in professions sporting events too. Also If you give up when you are behind you are not learning anything except how to surrender.

SelflessTeammateJun 30, 20151 votes

The only games in which I surrender are those in which the team is hopelessly toxic to each other, and at least one person is intentionally feeding/afk/ragequit.

"Hopeless" is not a problem for me, because I don't believe in it. It's simply wrong. The reason it's wrong is because the longer the game goes on, the more even the power gap is. Stall long enough and you'll all be at full build or close to it, whether you've been losing the whole time or not. If the enemy team can't get it together to even keep you from that point, they stand a very fair chance of falling apart.

You can deal with a fed Nasus, or any other fed champ with a trillion stacks, if you simply adjust to deal with it. It's why Riot invented the item 3153 to deal with very high HP champs.

There are people who argue with me about this in-game, and, um, they're wrong. Objectively wrong. I usually see two sides to any question, but in that, no. And even it it doesn't do anything, I will "Negative Attitude" anyone who says "gg" before 20 minutes, on either team.

So I almost never surrender, and honestly, I don't really care if three people say yes and two say no. Sometimes it's just a learning experience when you're behind, and sometimes you actually do come back when you just couldn't even imagine it.

I think that might have something to do with a 1-15 comeback in which I was once involved, and a lot of comebacks in which we were down in both kills and farm simply because their team couldn't get late-game together enough to really end it.

So, yeah. I don't surrender. Almost ever. I will always vote no, unless the game is legit unpleasant between teammates. Because the game really isn't over until they get at least two inhibs, and we have zero objective advantage. Even then, if they still can't end it, it's a big "maybe".

But that mostly applies to normals. I will never surrender in ranked, for any reason, simply because surprising comebacks tend to happen often enough that I'm happy to stick it out and see if they mess up enough to throw completely. And those feel very rewarding.