Hey guys, remember Meddler and powercreeping?

Ahristocats·Sep 8, 2017·19 votes·1,177 views

shield stacking is broken in this meta, so you know what we did instead of nerfing them/make them impossible to stack?

we will create an item breaking through them doesn't matter if we powercreep the game. Morde is going to be destroyed with GW+this item? we will buff him and powercreep the game more

this system is logically flawed since the begining? we will still continue to destroy the game, and **even if this doubling damage against shield item thing is going to nerf shields alone without stacking? **we don't care, and will bring an other problem with GW.

Good luck my fellow friend Meddler, if you're so sure of you and your game design philosophy go on and apply a thesis next time.

53 Comments

RalanrSep 8, 201710 votes

This is going to fuck over self shield tanks harder than shield stacked ADCs.

God damn it.

Teridax68Sep 9, 20177 votes

What annoyed me in particular with that post was that the entire rationale that preceded it completely contradicted the announcement of a (possible) shield-breaking item. All of the lead-up to that point was a clear explanation of how arms races are bad because effects need to get powercreeped to deal with getting hard-countered, and how Riot doesn't want that, yet right after that: "... but also we have Grievous Wounds and might add a shield-breaking item," despite the fact that both of these effects are clear examples of arms races, with GW having had a major negative impact on the state of healing in the game already (the relative commonness of GW now is one of the reasons certain forms of healing, such as lifesteal, are far too strong on their own, imo).

I also feel that while such an effect might perhaps address the current meta by giving players the option to break a marksman slathered in BT + Locket + Janna/Lulu E's shields, it runs the risk of making balance much more difficult in the long run, as is the case with any other hard-counter mechanic. As you mentioned, fighters and tanks with strong shields, such as Sion or Nautilus, might find themselves at an even greater disadvantage if their survivablity gets broken that way, and might require buffs to their shielding power that risk making them unhealthy when left uncountered. Mages who run Seraph's Embrace, and who are currently fine, might similarly find themselves struggling in a meta with that item present, and might end up getting buffed in ways that might make them unpleasant whenever that anti-shield item falls out of favor. Introducing a mechanic like that in the game just creates ripples across the whole of its design, and adds yet another factor to take into consideration when balance is incredibly difficult and volatile as it is already.

Warlord DienekesSep 9, 20171 votes

On the plus side. I'll laugh at Kled some more.

I am sorry to any Kled mains.

RalanrSep 9, 20171 votes

Oh right. Skaarl is a shield!

TargonSep 9, 20173 votes

This was my first thought when I read about the shield breaking item. I feel especially bad for Sion and Nautilus .

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20174 votes

is he though?

the way he described it sounded like an active item that simply pops health shields.

mordes shield mechanic works different, so will the item even affect him?

either way, i dont like the idea. but apparantly theyre aware of the problems themselves. they said in an faq they dont like the path it would lead them on with comparing shield counters to grievous wounds. they said theyd rather try balancing shields directly and i agree.

they should just forget about that item.

imagine what it will do to fighters with item 3053

AmazoXSep 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-09-08T19:58:36.231+0000)

is he though?

the way he described it sounded like an active item that simply pops health shields.

mordes shield mechanic works different, so will the item even affect him?

either way, i dont like the idea. but apparantly theyre aware of the problems themselves. they said in an faq they dont like the path it would lead them on with comparing shield counters to grievous wounds. they said theyd rather try balancing shields directly and i agree.

they should just forget about that item.

imagine what it will do to fighters with

They're planning to buff Sterak's Gage though, I know my comment isn't helpful but HOPEFULLY it doesn't turn out to be complete SH!T.

ShadòwSep 8, 20173 votes

and how do you nerf Shield stacking?

if you just nerf shield values, then they won't be impactful enough when they are alone.

the problem is Shield stacking, and they want to create a niece item that should counter heavy shield stacking, but will have a lot of it's budget in that. it won't be an item that you can just build against everything that has a Shield and get away without paying stats.

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20175 votes

{quoted}

and how do you nerf Shield stacking?

only the largest shield applies at a time. you simply make them not stack at all.

PennsSep 8, 20172 votes

doesnt really matter, locket is only 1 shield anyway and supports only have one too

AhristocatsSep 8, 20172 votes

THEN WHY DO YOU CREATE THIS ITEM?

meddler legit said that shields alone are fine and this item is being created as a niche against massive shield stacking

PennsSep 8, 20172 votes

idk cancer tanks and heals/life steal are the problem lel

i just want an anti shield item for hexdrinker hehe

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20171 votes

{quoted}

idk cancer tanks and heals/life steal are the problem lel

i just want an anti shield item for hexdrinker hehe

thats stupid and defeats the entire purpose of the item.

why not tune the item itself? like make it scale off total mr like maws passive. would make assassins vs. mages a bit less snowbally but allow bruisers to still play the game against ap top laners like rumble, vlad, lissandra and heimer.

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20172 votes

{quoted}

doesnt really matter, locket is only 1 shield anyway and supports only have one too

bloodthirster shield, locket shield, support shield.

and maybe other sources on other champions, like ryzes passive, item 3040 shield etc.

there are edge cases of people being shielded for 3 times their health bar. it can get really ridiculous. thats what the entire discussion is about.

easiest fix is simply not having them stack. at least in my opinion.

PennsSep 8, 20171 votes

then an item that "does x damage, doubled against shields" wouldnt really do anything tho.. unless you want to make an item with 1500 base damage.

GayFluffyUnicornSep 8, 20171 votes

Is shield stacking really a problem? I actually do like the fact that teamfights are not over in 2 seconds and it actually takes several rotations to kill someone. I like redemption and lockets prolonging fights and barely saving teammates or enemies. The only problem: Unkillable adcs threeshotting entire teams no matter the shields and heals and resistances. So we are going to reduce shield values and go back to burst meta and 2 second teamfights because adcs are draintanking, unkillable assassin DPS burst juggernauts. How about we remove ardent from the game and tone adc dmg down. Poof. game is balanced.

RainfallSep 8, 20173 votes

thats how the game works,riot adds something new to the game at the start of the season,that makes some champs op,riot nerfs op champs.

PennsSep 8, 20172 votes

dont really need to buff morde, you could just make his passive an exception (or rework it hehe)

i need an anti shield item in my life tho

AhristocatsSep 8, 20173 votes

{quoted}

dont really need to buff morde, you could just make his passive an exception

that's still a buff but yeah

ModWulf HelhammerSep 8, 20171 votes

Not really....It wouldn't change his current power, only preserve something prior. It would be like how old Galio had a "shield" that wasn't really a shield, so he couldn't use Athene's

SlythionSep 8, 20174 votes

If you nerf everyone in a category except for 1 champion, you can either call it a nerf to everyone or a buff to the one. They mean the same thing and convey the same message.

The message? That 1 champion is now going to be comparatively stronger than before.

KloqdqSep 8, 20172 votes

"Oh but overshielding is a big problem!"

Then nerf overshielding and solve the issue. I don't think band-aids should be used to fix your game but clearly Riot didn't get the memo on that.

ProfDrDeathSep 9, 20172 votes

No, the problem is shield stacking from different sources.

Each shielding effect on their own seems to be in the right spot, power-wise.

KloqdqSep 9, 20171 votes

Then you add the simple fix which was just dumping all your shields on one target and have shield be 50% less effective. Sort of like how Heal works. Where healing from another source are weaker.

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20172 votes

I feel like as long as it's limited to the Assassin class, it'll be fine. They're the ones who need to get through shields, and most fucked by shield stacks. Not as big of a problem for Divers or Mages, who at least bring CC with their primary combos.

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-09-08T20:19:06.802+0000)

I feel like as long as it's limited to the Assassin class, it'll be fine. They're the ones who need to get through shields, and most fucked by shield stacks. Not as big of a problem for Divers or Mages, who at least bring CC with their primary combos.

awesome. i always wanted to get assassinated through my steraks shield despite the entire purpose of the item making juggernauts burst resistant.

no. its just going to fuck up everything.

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20172 votes

Who the fuck is going to assassinate a Juggernaut in a teamfight. I agree with the idea of it being an active with a CD, but honestly, Juggs aren't the main concern with this idea.

AhristocatsSep 8, 20173 votes

the item is not going to be an assassin item, it's going to double the damage you deal to shields

meddler didn't say anything about it being an assassin item or an ad item or whatsoever

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20171 votes

Never said Meddlr said that, I said I think it'll be fine if it was only an assassin item.

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=000700000000,timestamp=2017-09-08T20:22:53.176+0000)

Who the fuck is going to assassinate a Juggernaut in a teamfight. I agree with the idea of it being an active with a CD, but honestly, Juggs aren't the main concern with this idea.

EVERYONE is a concern.

when the juggernaut eats enough damage to bring him to like 25% - 30% health while triggering the steraks shield in a fight, that would already bring him into range for assassination.

especially if its a juggernaut like Darius who survives off % missing health heals and doesnt have a lot of inbuilt resistances or stacks reistances with priority.

the only way darius survives in fights is by stacking straight health and buying extra time with items like steraks to hit his a q for a massive heal after hes been taken low.

you cant just ignore this case because "oh im sure it wont happen". of course it will fucking happen.

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20173 votes

By the time a Juggernaut reaches 25-30% health, especially with someone like Darius, the fight has gone on long enough for the assassin to have already targeted the ADC or Mage instead, who have 40% of a Juggs max health always. It looks bad in a void, but honestly, it's nowhere as near bad as you're portraying it.

Critmaster GarenSep 8, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=00070000000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-08T21:00:07.560+0000)

By the time a Juggernaut reaches 25-30% health, especially with someone like Darius, the fight has gone on long enough for the assassin to have already targeted the ADC or Mage instead, who have 40% of a Juggs max health always. It looks bad in a void, but honestly, it's nowhere as near bad as you're portraying it.

read again pls.

some juggernauts drop to damage really fast and live mostly off well timed % missing health heals when theyre low. the same juggs benefit from steraks since it buys them an extra couple of seconds to get their health bar back up before the shield runs out.

an assassin could easily abuse these windows to finish them off with a shield breaker.

its a fucking terrible idea to mess with such a mechanic and will be much easier to balance shields themselves.

there isnt even a guarantee that only assassins are going to use this item. adc might just abuse it to break tank shields like they abuse everything else.

ModAcademy KaynSep 8, 20172 votes

I did read it. But once again, a lot of Assassin's kill combos are based off their ults. I understand how quickly they can take damage, but no assassin is going to waste their kit on a Juggernaut, maybe only if the fight lasts long enough for them to get another rotation off.

Juggs just aren't their primary target, and I think you're over estimating just how much they'd target a Jugg.

AmazoXSep 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2017-09-08T20:20:29.538+0000)

awesome. i always wanted to get assassinated through my steraks shield despite the entire purpose of the item making juggernauts burst resistant.

no. its just going to fuck up everything.

So you wanna be immortal with all the shields stacked up your ass?

Critmaster GarenSep 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

So you wanna be immortal with all the shields stacked up your ass?

i want the one anti burst shield that i buy as a fighter not to be ass. thank you.

steraks shield on juggernauts is balanced as it is. you bring a shield breaker mechanic into the game and its going to counter the op shield stacking, but also make single situational shields like this garbage.

this is why you balance shield stacking, instead of fucking around with a mechanic that makes everything more complicated.

i AGREE with you that shield stacking on marksmen is straight up bullshit. but the obvious solution is to fix shield stacking on marksmen, or nerf marksmens ability to carry from behind those shield walls. not to introduce an item into the game that marksmen are probably going to abuse themsleves.

AmazoXSep 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=0007000000010000,timestamp=2017-09-09T21:14:05.206+0000)

i want the one anti burst shield that i buy as a fighter not to be ass. thank you.

steraks shield on juggernauts is balanced as it is. you bring a shield breaker mechanic into the game and its going to counter the op shield stacking, but also make single situational shields like this garbage.

this is why you balance shield stacking, instead of fucking around with a mechanic that makes everything more complicated.

i AGREE with you that shield stacking on marksmen is straight up bullshit. but the obvious solution is to fix shield stacking on marksmen, or nerf marksmens ability to carry from behind those shield walls. not to introduce an item into the game that marksmen are probably going to abuse themsleves.

Agreed man

AhrisSep 9, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Mercy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=F1L51qRO,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-09-08T20:19:06.802+0000)

I feel like as long as it's limited to the Assassin class, it'll be fine. They're the ones who need to get through shields, and most fucked by shield stacks. Not as big of a problem for Divers or Mages, who at least bring CC with their primary combos.

And burst mages like Ahri.

ProfDrDeathSep 9, 20171 votes

At the same time, it should not be something that allows assassins to flat-out ignore shields, given that these are supposed to be a form of counterplay to the class.

Maybe an effect that allows a portion of the damage to phase through the shields? Or an effect that disincentivizes shield stacking, by damaging all shields at once (example: 20 incoming damage, 3 x 100 shield = all shields reduced to 80)? Or a burn on shield duration?

ModAcademy KaynSep 9, 20171 votes

Yeah, Meddler said they didn't want an item that's good just because a single enemy has a shield. I imagine something around the effect "Damage done to one shield is applied to every other shield" would be pretty effective at dealing with shield stacking.

ganggoinkSep 9, 20172 votes

Who cares about morde honestly besides boards?

AmazoXSep 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Who cares about morde honestly besides boards?

Mordekaiser mains at Reddit

chipndip1Sep 9, 20172 votes

I remember that, a long time ago, I was complaining that heal/shield power would too much value into one button for enchanters. If they release this item, they'll have to put every enchanter (save Nami) on the game play update list like pronto. All enchanters do is spam buttons. They'll be massively crap tier if they don't have more fleshed out game play by the time this item really sinks into the game.

hhaavviikkSep 8, 20171 votes

wait they're actually doing that?

AmazoXSep 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

wait they're actually doing that?

Well this enchanters Ardent + Locket + Redemption + SHIELDS + ADC is fucking BS so yes

hhaavviikkSep 10, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Well this enchanters Ardent + Locket + Redemption + SHIELDS + ADC is fucking BS so yes

know what's also BS? going down the road of grievous wounds. so how about we just have diminishing returns on shields instead of making it so they're OP if you don't buy the anti-shield item and garbage when you do buy the anti-shield item, it would turn it into the grievous wounds problem, as in it doesn't solve the problem it merely is a band-aid solution

SalsonSep 8, 20171 votes

You do realize Morde is 90% getting a rework in S8?

Now, the item idea is bullshit.

Having a Rune that increases damage to shields, made to counter a Shen Ivern Orianna Janna + random marksman team would be a better idea.

Having it as an item means it has to be effective against a single shield based target. Having it as a Rune would make it optional vs shield based teams, as shield stacking should be on the level of a full AD team.

Dextix LTSep 8, 20175 votes

Oh great, fuck over shen even MORE! What the fuck has he done to everyone?

SalsonSep 8, 20171 votes

The item would hurt more or be useless.

Ideally a Rune would be weak into 1 shielder, break even with 2 and be broken with more.

AmazoXSep 9, 20171 votes

If you have better ideas then list them in the description of this thread instead of pointing out the negative key-points, Other-wise this thread isn't helpful at all.