Generally when you can't counter a spell, it means that riot doesn't want you to counter it

Ahristocats·Jan 8, 2017·28 votes·2,044 views

Vayne's W is %hp true damage, this means riot doesn't want you to build something to stop vayne's damage but DIRECTLY deals with her, either killing her, kit her, or use the "2v1" strat

When camille's ulti prevents you to use anything to run that means riot DOESN'T want you to get out of it, but use your allies to deal with her

am i the only one seeing that "using allies" as a way to deal with something incredibly bad designed?

71 Comments

HigeJan 8, 201719 votes

well it is a team game after all, using allies is a perfectly ok mechanic... problem is that people seem to play this game as if it was street fighter or something...

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20175 votes

Because you can't control or heavily influence your teammates. You can't force them to get Mortal vs the Mundo. You can't force them to get into a good position. You can't force them to know how to kite, poke, zone, land skillshots, ward, or cc the right targets.

HigeJan 9, 20172 votes

so? O.o if they don't build against their enemies, the ones playing the game wrong is them, there's nothing you can do about that.

If a soccer team had one drunk player tumbling around in the field, there is nothing much they can do but play around him, league is no different, you have good teammates and bad teammates, as long as you don't purposely troll, you'll be fine, you win some you lose some.

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20175 votes

Yeah, there's nothing "you" can do about that.

Counterplay can't just be in the form of things done by the team. Something like having 3 teammates ccing and gangbanging Yasuo, for instance.

There needs to be things that "you" can do

That is what makes a champ have good counterplay

HigeJan 9, 20171 votes

but there is something you can do O.o you can avoid engage until your teammates are ready to jump in, if that never happens you can simply stay away, this is one of the main mechanics on this game, you need to understand that there are champions you can't kill alone, again this is not street fighter, at some point your team will be there and only then you should queue your aggression.

There are things you can do against Yasuo on your own btw, also against camille and pretty much a lot of champions, it has to do with aggression and disengage timings which is something pretty advanced for a lot of people, being a weak teamfighter is but piece of the puzzle

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20175 votes

That's the things you should be doing.

You should be playing defensive and safe, and it would theoretically work out.

But it doesn't. Your opponent isn't a potato. While your teammates are lagging behind, they poke you under turret, or can just dive you. Once the other lanes are behind, it doens't take much time for them to send the rest of the team to kick you out of lane.

The defensive, safe playstyle doesn't work because turrets are useless

HigeJan 9, 20171 votes

poking under turret IS a valid strategy as well, the enemy will get punished if he overcommits and if he dives you ALONE it'll be the turret's damage plus yours, IF you are low health and still stay under turret to get dove, I'm sorry, it IS your fault, because you can always retreat, you are choosing to stay and then complain that turrets are weak but in reality you aren't playing your cards right.

I know you are supposed to protect the turret, but it falling down isn't the end of the world or the game, also, do not bring up the turret first blood thing because while it is statistically correct, this number has been inflated by itself, as soon as people realized that you had at least 51% more chance to win because of turret first blood, people themselves started to give up when it happened, thus inflating the number to stupid proportions.

there are only 3 things that matter in league of legends, strategy, mechanics and teamwork, you could last hit every single minion there is but if you don't have an understanding on strategical retreats and resource management you will NOT win.

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20172 votes

if he overcommits

That depends on their faults. Meaning, you have no say in it. They just dance right outside the turret range and can still dmg you from it. Cait can dmg you even when you're under turret. I play Darius and the turret has no impact at all. I just Q whenever they get a minion. If they do the "Smart decision" of giving up cs, they end up with even less cs than their jgler.

IF you are low health and still stay under turret to get dove,

Because there's nothing to do. There's no counterplay. Because of how snowbally the game is, they will just get more xp/gold than you every second you're under the tower. If you retreat, you have a gap that can never be closed, and you'll be useless the entire game. Based on how weak turrets are, if you've been pushed, the turret will likely die too.

I know you are supposed to protect the turret, but it falling down isn't the end of the world

It opens up first blood, as you mentioned. It gives them roaming potential, they can basically dive you whenever they want now, as the wave will always be near the first fallen turret.

If you think about it "strategically," no matter what you do, you will be useless the rest of the game

Möral SupportJan 8, 201717 votes

I agree 100% but when vayne is constantly applying damage (like 3 shotting you), its not as easy. Trust me, I'm all for teammates helping, but I don't like the fact she can simply delete you.

• Side note you can't kite a Vayne.

Prophet of DecayJan 8, 20172 votes

Also if you go 3v1 against her, all she needs is Runaan's Hurricane. :D

ShadowParkerJan 8, 20179 votes

Runaans doesn't apply the silver bolts to all 3 targets.

RyuyahJan 8, 20176 votes

doesnt matter if she two shot her primary target in stealth

JRobin31Jan 9, 20171 votes

RIOT also stated that when they give % max hp true damage to a champion it is because they want that champion to be a threat to any opponent. They were very clear. The obvious implication then is that some champions aren't designed to be a threat...

Fuh QueueJan 8, 20178 votes

Teammates helping you deal with something in a team game is a bad design?

Möral SupportJan 8, 20172 votes

No friend, that's a great design in a game ALL ABOUT TEAMWORK.

AhristocatsJan 8, 20174 votes

basically then you can bring back everything removed for anti-fun purpose, because you can deal it with allies

IziMytTJd7Jan 8, 20178 votes

You're telling me that by making it impossible to get out of Camille's ult, Riot intended you to NOT be able to get out of it? How do you acquire such information? You must have some sort of direct communication with Riot designers.

Supreme Senpai69Jan 8, 20175 votes

Just sucks cuz the Camille obviously isn't going to ult unless she can kill you. Removes the opponent's agency completely.

Camille player: "Can I kill that person?" If yes, she ults and kills them because they can't escape. If no, she isn't going to ult. It's not this epic 1v1 duel; it's either she doesn't ult and no duel happens or she ults and kills you easily. Binary af.

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20173 votes

if she can kill you she ults if she cant kill you she has no ult........ so is picking your battles new or something

Supreme Senpai69Jan 9, 20172 votes

No, you're always supposed to be able to pick your battles.

So why can't you v Camille? She picks it for you. The decision to fight or not fight is in her hands. Very few champions, if any, can force a fight in the way Camille can.

LordGeovanniJan 11, 20171 votes

you can versus camille but when you know she is fed respect it and give her space like you do when you know another champion is fed

Supreme Senpai69Jan 11, 20171 votes

Not with her E, honestly. I agree you shouldn't be in her face trying to trade if she's fed but when you give someone insane duel potential, and then also give them amazing mobility, they're gonna be up in your face a lot. Top it all off with a way to force a duel and you got someone who wants to duel more than YuGiOh

LordGeovanniJan 11, 20171 votes

firstly her e requires both you and camille to be close to each other and or standing on the same side of the lane and its still easy to dodge after she jumps to the wall as long as you both arent standing next to the wall

LordGeovanniJan 11, 20171 votes

like she is the only champion to have that and her mobility is medium ranged on a long cooldown unlike most viable champions with mobility Fizz Vayne LeeSin Fiora etc

Supreme Senpai69Jan 11, 20171 votes

Insane duel potential Amazing mobility A way to force a duel

Those are the three things I said tbh, and of them, I'm pretty sure only Camille fits. In reply to your other comment, her E can be used quite a distance away. It's easy to dodge, but her ult is point and click. What I'm saying is she can E to you and R, and get a kill everytime the R is up, because if she couldn't then she won't R. In that sense it's binary and lacks counterplay.

LordGeovanniJan 12, 20171 votes

even with e any one who doesnt want to duel cammile should be out of her range next healing in its more common and potent form life steal next stuns and other cc to wait out her ult and another thing you can do is use mobility with in the ult and kite her around until its over but most people just cower in the corner that they already know they cant leave from and cry. oh yea sheilds i forgot sheilds

6SfoolJan 9, 20174 votes

A tank that can kite Vayne? Teach me how.

Meep ManJan 9, 20175 votes

Urgot "I'll show you my son."

Troll for TrumpJan 9, 20173 votes

Generally when you can't counter a spell, it means that riot doesn't want you to counter it

Motion Denied

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khorneyJan 8, 20171 votes

its called thornmail frozen heart and rand omen...or in other words dont build hp or she will do more damge to you and with that say she builds lord dom guess what that does less damage to you becuase.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 8, 20174 votes

Uh, it's still the same percentage of your HP either way, and investing too heavily in armour wouldn't be as effective against her regular autos.

But FH and omen are good though, they give AS slows.

khorneyJan 8, 20171 votes

You forget 5% of 1500 isn't as much as 5% of 3k ? And thorn mail reflects the true damage. I could 1v1 Vayne as leo with only those items easy.

Mecha MaIphiteJan 8, 20174 votes

It doesn't matter what the flat number is, it matters what % of your HP it's doing. Her W is going to be doing the same percentage either way, so you need to mitigate damage from her actual autos, which is also pretty significant. If you only have 2500 HP, and her autos deal 200 damage because you stacked armour, that's 8% of your HP per auto. If you had 3500 HP and her autos deal 250 damage, that's 7.1% of your HP per auto. This is assuming Vayne doesn't have a last whisper item, which she probably will have mid to late game, in which case stacking armour is even worse.

And no, you couldn't.

khorneyJan 8, 20171 votes

Do tell why I was able to 1v1 her as leo with only having those 3 items ? She had ie static and blade ?

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20175 votes

she was afk

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20173 votes

with auto autoattacks turned off in her settings

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20172 votes

that or you built full crit or full lifesteal leona and she didnt use her kiteing

StephenizgodJan 8, 20177 votes

Her %Hp true damage will kill you in the same amount of AA's regardless of your HP. For example if she does 10% max Hp true damage, she will always kill you in 10 procs because 10 procs at 10% of your Max Hp is exactly 100% of your HP. You could have 3000 or 8000 it doesn't matter she will do 300 per proc or 800 per proc, you will still die in 10 procs. This is not counting her AA damage obviously.

Frozen Heart and Randuins are good because they reduce her AA damage (until she buys Last Whisper) and her Attack Speed (which means she can't proc her W as quickly) and Randuin's also reduces Crit damage which she builds often. However these are band-aid solutions, meaning they are not truly going to stop her in a 1v1, merely slightly slow her down. The intended way of dealing with Vayne is to either jump on her and insta-burst her before she can react or come at her with multiple people.

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20171 votes

actually more health does help because she also has flat true damage do it helps versus that but you lose when you build health because she also has % max hp true damage

StephenizgodJan 9, 20172 votes

I didn't say building health was a bad thing, just that her %Hp true damage will always do the same percentage of damage to you regardless of your HP. Yea exactly, there isn't really a benefit from building or not building Health against Vayne, you should definitely build Randuin or Frozen Heart though.

LordGeovanniJan 9, 20171 votes

actually me and several other said that about her % max hp true damage you were just saying true damage doesnt have a counter which in the form of more health it does if its flat true damage

StephenizgodJan 9, 20173 votes

No I didn't? I specified Vayne's %Hp true damage procs.

"Her %Hp true damage"
"For example if she does 10% max Hp true damage"
"You could have 3000 or 8000 it doesn't matter she will do 300 per proc or 800 per proc"

See, I am very clearly talking about Vayne's max Hp% true damage. I straight up say that I am talking about it.

I wasn't talking about True Damage at all.

LordGeovanniJan 11, 20171 votes

you specify max health true damage at times then go on to say true damage has no counter

StephenizgodJan 11, 20171 votes

Where did I say that? I am not seeing it.

PB4UAMEJan 9, 20171 votes

Didn't they remove the flat true damage when they increased it from 8% to 12% with the ADC rework at the end of Season 5?

LordGeovanniJan 11, 20171 votes

I really didnt remember the flat damage removal but i remember being salty about the %max hp true damage increase and i still ban vayne 97% of the time to this day

TeCoolMageJan 9, 20171 votes

Vayne doesn't have flat true damage.

LordGeovanniJan 11, 20171 votes

oh they removed it? i didnt remember

Raid Boss MordeJan 9, 20171 votes

Actually, if it was 10% Max HP True damage each time, she couldn't kill anyone in 10 autos. Health regen would force 11 procs ;)

Now if we're adding in that auto damage, well... she'll probably kill you in about 3 or 4 procs.

StephenizgodJan 9, 20171 votes

Lol weeeelll A) It is procs, not autos, B) It is an example to show how her %Hp true damage work, and C) I actually mentioned that this was without AA's.

If you want to bring her AA damage you need to factor in their Armor, what items they bought, what items she bought, and what champion she is attacking.