82 Comments

bbQsauçe34 votes

[deleted]

Thefrostyviking6 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ewx0xARL,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-02-18T11:39:45.241+0000)

Looks balanced to me. It's fair when she runs to you at 900 MS, point and clicks an ability and oneshots you. Also very fair that warding is pretty much useless against her because as soon as you see her coming you're fucked anyways, and it's not like turrets help against her either. Fair and balanced.

Talon does the exact same thing and i haven't seen anyone even mention him. Zed too for that point altho slower due to lack of parkour.

bbQsauçe19 votes

[deleted]

Thefrostyviking4 votes

[{quoted}](name=bbQ s,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ewx0xARL,comment-id=000600000000,timestamp=2017-02-18T12:45:14.409+0000)

Zed can't cover as much distance as fast as quinn does, if you ward you can escape him unless you're severely out of position. Also when he ults, you can CC him and/or flash out and dodge. Unless he's fed he won't be able to kill you if he doesn't land a shuriken.

Yeah i wrote that, i said that he was slower :(

As for him being stoppable....honestly? With edge of night having both a long active and low CD i find it very hard to prevent him from ulting you. Add lethality movespeed and he will catch up without fail.

As for him being outplayable...sure he will likely not kill you without landing his Q's at least early. However his ulti has around 1 min cd and flash has 5. I always find myself very scared playing against zed whenever he is meta because of how much one either needs flash or a similar ability or zhonya just to survive him.

Speaking from personal experience while playing him i found zed easier to go all in with compared to both Akali and Ahri. I miss about 1 out of 5 Q's and i find it extremely easy to land it and i don't even play zed regularly. His burst if properly done is huge and he is very forgiving too. Reason´s i dislike to play him is mainly the fact that i find him to be sort a hit or miss champion. Either you snowball and carry or you don´t and eventually lose if someone else doesn't carry but this was mainly just my biased experience.

...I might also be the sort of trigger happy type that easily got baited while playing zed, but only maybe. I do succeed with Diana after all.

SteelMankind1 votes

There are a few champions in League who trade reliablility for outplay potential. Zed is one such champion. The problem with these champions is when players take the time to get really good at them and know how much damage to expect for the situation, it can leave players of simpler champions feeling like there was nothing they do to fight back.

Example: Annie has stun up. Zed player knows he'll die if he just ults Annie; Annie player knows this too. Zed player has the cards in their hand because all they have to do is wait for Annie to Q a minion, which is inevitable unless Annie wants to lose CS under turret. Instant that happens, Zed Ws in and ults Annie, killing her.

The easiest way to deal with skilled players of low reliability, high outplay potential champions is to take the time to learn one yourself. I always pick Ekko into Zed because I have tons of ways to outplay my opponent with my ult, W stun/shield, and passive movespeed. Sure, I give up a reliable win condition like "land Lux Q/VelKoz E", but you gain the tools to deal with the craftier opponents.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

What you said is reasonable.

However i think of the ADC's that aren't using Edge of night when i say that zed's ulti is kinda problematic in this lethality meta. It deals massive damage and no normal crit adc item works against him. Only Zhonya or GA have any meaningful effect. Any no ADC will have either in time to even stand a chance at stopping zed from snowballing of their heads.

SteelMankind2 votes

Yeah, most ADC's don't have nuanced outplay tools since kiting well is already mechanically intensive. Also, a lot of ADCs are s1 champs and so aren't all that complex. Thirdly, ADCs aren't designed to deal with outplay champs. There's a reason why the meta for the last 6 seasons has been to give an ADC a support to help them out.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, most ADC's don't have nuanced outplay tools since kiting well is already mechanically intensive. Also, a lot of ADCs are s1 champs and so aren't all that complex. Thirdly, ADCs aren't designed to deal with outplay champs. There's a reason why the meta for the last 6 seasons has been to give an ADC a support to help them out.

mhm but now it feels like the assassins are often capable of bypassing the support and running into your face for a easy kill. I really don't like that at all :(

I actually play both ADC and support altho support far less, and it felt god damm awful when some rengar lept ontop of my cait when i played Sona. I exhausted him and stunned and he just cleansed and finished her off before her E had even gotten her away from him.

SteelMankind1 votes

That's why you don't take shit like MF support xD

Janna is just as good as cockblocking as seh's always been. Lulu, Karma, Taric, and Ivern are also great at this.

ShaolinToilet1 votes

That is a bronze 5 example

Melledoneus18 votes

Talon's roaming is gated much more than Quinn's, and ismuch more limited because it is tied to terrain. He also is not that fast so when he's running up to you he's literally RUNNING UP TO YOU.

If he ults, you'll most likely see the blades and his combo has multiple components to proc, including his slow-ass W.

Broken? Maybe. No counterplay? Talon's slow and clunky enough to have counterplay.

Quinn CC's you and one shots you while you're being displaced.

Velzard of Koz2 votes

Talon's roaming is gated much more than Quinn's, and ismuch more limited because it is tied to terrain.

Luckily there is one wall in entire Summoner's Rift.

CzapLaaaaa7 votes

The walls he jumped has a 2 minute cooldown early game so it's really not that big of a deal.

Melledoneus4 votes

Especially since he can't jump fully over every wall.

ChaoticPinecone1 votes

"Gated" in different ways, but I wouldnt say "much more". Quinn runs straight at you - you have to play it like you would a Hecarim or Rammus. Talon is more like Shaco - ganks from every conceivable angle.

GayFluffyUnicorn3 votes

Zed has a point and click nuke? Afaik if not fed as hell he needs to atleast hit 2 shurikens, a few AAs and his E. Or three shurikens, ignite and one AA. And if you are not dead by then his mark needs to pop, 3 seconds of healing up on minions, shieldings, janna R whatever Meainwhile quinn: E targeted unavoidable, AA unavoidable and you are either dead or flash away.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

This is against a target at full health early tho? I usually poke my victims down a bit first before i go in.

With lethality Zed i personally had the "honor" of seeing one go something like R-W-E-Q and he hit 1 Q and E and i still died. This was a fair bit into the game though however i still feel like there was little i could have actually done.

And don't go bringing in what the support can do to stop him, honestly i feel it's plain stupidity to expect to be able to win 1v2 as a Assassin vs ADC+ support. If that was possible then there'd be no point in playing those two at all. Which is why i also consider this lethally rush a extremely bad state for the game.

No you are expected to play with your team and a good assassin who does that is simply terrifying.

And that is also why i consider talon more of an issue than Quinn. Quinn cannot run past an entire team and kill the backline, a single point of damage and she loses all mobility whilst talon goes invisble and pops out some second later and goes Q-W-AA and any normal mage or ADC dies instantly. Then he jumps over a wall to safety and there is little one can do to actually stop him. I had the pleasure of enduring 50 minutes of this last night. Only reason my team won was because he got greedy and died instead of ending the game whilst i and my team held out until someone on the enemy team DCed, which was far from a fair win.

But i digress, current Quinn is simply a degraded version of talon, she does indeed punish any form of bad positioning extremely hard however that she always did. Difference now is that like all the other users Quinn gains a crapton of stats very quickly from the lethality items and then shuts down people whom she wasn't meant to due to sheer stat superiority. But she is a reverse miss fortune which means that grouping early and starting teamfights counters her very well so she's far from top of the lethality users.

And if you have any doubts about this, try playing against lethality nocturne. I did and at one point his ulti alone did 650 damage. Then an passive enhanced auto+duskblade and maybe a Q did the rest of my health at the time. My ADC in that game died 14 times and 9 of them because of noc alone.

Ars Arcánum2 votes

Where were you all of 2016, where she was doing the same thing?

ModAcademy Kayn12 votes

So you're telling me, that when you were out of position (in front of tanks, in their turret), and Quinn flies her way up to you and kills you, after you wasted both your Gold Card and Q, it's her fault and she's broken? I'm not denying she may be strong, but me thinks some of the blame lies with you.

Best princess EU1 votes

yup

i expected to outplay her! let me try it on a point and click almost-instant-death champ

xd

ModAcademy Kayn5 votes

"Wah, I got caught out of position and died to an assassin, when as a Mage, I should be behind my Tanks"

Yaśuo Main1 votes

is quinn an assassin or am i high

MadDetective4 votes

She may not be classified as an assassin, but she's DEFINITELY an assassin. She dives in, kills you quick, and runs away.

SSJTribe4 votes

Quinn is an assassin, yes.

GGLineaR1 votes

A good Donger Top lane stops her from snowballing. Heimerdinger is so trash in late game, but great for preventing a snowball early.

DeusVult4 votes

Complaining about a champ who is using (abusing) lethality items when Tobias has:

  • 0 bonus armor from runes/masteries
  • 0 Items to give him any armor (item 3157 )
  • Compaling about point and click CC when he is playing TF

So many people complain about lethality and yet they dont change their item purchases/runes/masteries in order to deal with it.

Atm, getting item 3142 item 3814 item 3147 will get you 50 lethality. Runes/masteries will get you another 33 lethality (24.4 from reds/quints, 8.5 from masteries). That's 83 lethality, at level 18. (Riot could probably reduce the lethality values on everything just a tad so that stacking it isnt so effective.)

But when champs complain about lethality while running/building no armor, that is what makes me mad. it is incredibly easy to counterbuild against lethality. 9 armor from flat armor yellows, or 27 armor from scaling armor yellows in your rune page. The break even with the flat armor runes at level 9, around when champs are getting their first full lethality item.

You can get an early item 1031 for 800g to sit on for a later item 3026, you can pick up an early item 3191 for a lateritem 3157. Chain is 40 armor, seekers is 30, scaling to 45 armor. You can ask your support to rush a item 3109, as it gives 40 armor to the bonded target. At level 9, if you're running scaling yellows, have a chain vest and your ally is picking up knights vow, you would have 89 bonus armor. This isnt even when lethality is completely effective yet, as it is still scaling up with levels. Yet, you have more bonus armor than they are ever going to have lethality, in effect making it useless, as the reason that it is so strong is that it reduces most champs armor to 0, making their physical damage true damage.

http://tryhardmode.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/armorreturns1.jpg here is a graph showing effective damage reduction vs armor amount. Armor/MR work on a limiting returns function, meaning that damage reduction evens at 50% (100 armor), but it doesn't grow as fast when armor increases above 100, but goes down MUCH faster when below 100 armor, making lethality builds against people who build 0 armor so effective. The average squishy champ has 75 armor at level 18 from base armor alone. Which means people running full lethality deal true damage to them. But against someone who has built 80+ bonus armor, they are only dealing 60% of their damage (40% damage reduction from ~65-70 armor) Meaning that the Jhin Quinn Varus Jayce isnt going to kill you in one rotation of skills.

So yes, lethality is strong, but even Riot has said that they are going to deal with it and try to reduce its power. But the real OP thing about lethality is how brain dead poeple are about trying to counter it, in their builds, runes and playstyles.

Kukan Seishin3 votes

NO armor NO zhonya, And Quinn has full squishy lethality build.... You expected him to NOT get one shot?

chipndip14 votes

Quinn one-shots nearly anything anyway, and she's a marksman.

There's a difference between "You should have expected that" and "Inability to escape or fight back while this homing missile completely annihilates me".

Thefrostyviking1 votes

Quinn is just abusing lethality extremely hard, she plays nearly exactly like Talon does currently.

Difference is that she punishes sidelane farming harder while talon is better in teamfights.

FantasySniper3 votes

And people thought that Quinn one-shotting was a joke.

wishbone252 votes

xin fizz , yi , j4 , nidalee , swain , nauth u name so much counter picks , and quin his ultimate counter

GULAG 4 U3 votes

Yi counters quinn? The champion who can only auto attack counters the one that prevents auto attacks from working?

Thefrostyviking7 votes

{quoted}

Yi counters quinn? The champion who can only auto attack counters the one that prevents auto attacks from working?

Quinn Q is like graves smoke, it lowers you vision but if you are ontop of her already that won't save her.

Sasogwa2 votes

{quoted}

Quinn Q is like graves smoke, it lowers you vision but if you are ontop of her already that won't save her.

Quinn's kit still counters Master Yi's. She's got heavy burst damage and she can use her E either after Yi's Q to put back distance for kiting, or to cancel out his meditate. It's a very strong kit against Yi.

wishbone251 votes

if your really impatient u have to wait until her E wores off and finish the job after , just like tryn ult 5 sec every one dies at that moment

GULAG 4 U1 votes

She does have a knockback too.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

She does have a knockback too.

And yi has a gapcloser that any good Yi will use upon seeing Quinn start her E. It's a game of reactions and it will most likely stay that way x)

Photos of Ghosts2 votes

It only equals a blind on ranged characters, Yi can just keep hitting her and is fast enough to find her by randomly running around if she vaults away while he has reduced vision.

GULAG 4 U2 votes

quinn balanced champ

Ars Arcánum2 votes

She's been like that for over a year. NOW it's suddenly a problem.. I wonder why..

Edit: I was being sarcastic. I know it's lethality that made it like this.

Khadaver3 votes

Edge of night takes away a lot of the risk/ counterplay and lethality just boosted her dmg

Tychusfindlay9194 votes

[{quoted}](name=ScHoolboy Quinn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ewx0xARL,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-02-18T16:43:56.698+0000)

She's been like that for over a year. NOW it's suddenly a problem.. I wonder why..

Because with EoN and lethality being a lot stronger late game than the old flat pen, quinn is wrecking shit with zero counterplay.

Honestly, I think it's really the items and not so much quinn.

SpookyNeedle2 votes

She was 13/4 and an assassin, if she didn't one shot a squishy she's doing something wrong

Project Sleeky1 votes

report tobias no counterplay

Segius1 votes

Honestly Camille is the ultimate counter for zed, most of the time I can one shot him easily, also her ult keeps him from jumping away, there if plenty of counterplay in other champions as well.... maybe your just bad?

Yaśuo Main1 votes

actually you can only "one shot" him if you have a kill or two

if you are both even or if he has a kill and you ult him, ur dead

its so easy to W Q E someone in that small space

Segius1 votes

You obviously have no experiance with camile, q auto q and over half his health, if mid lainer is there too hes dead

Yaśuo Main1 votes

You obviously never played Zed, you can W into your own turret as Zed before her ult actually hits, Q AA Q does work, because you'd die if you even tried to do that. Zed would chunk you before you managed to even get your mid laner to him, and he WILL have lethality, which is super broken right now.

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