SHen doesn't have MR/LVL for a reason

doublelift fg·Mar 16, 2015·60 votes·3,950 views

that riven doesn't seem to have

83 Comments

Yuki AkumaMar 16, 201539 votes

All tanks should have MR/lvl, should be common sense really. Not in Riot's world though... Apparently.

Sightless66Mar 16, 201528 votes

Back when Shen was initially designed, tanks had some pretty large advantages over mages due to the strength of defensive items. Some of the more damaging tanks could just roll over mages unless the mages were stupidly ahead. As a result, some tanks weren't given MR/level as a way to stop them from being too effective against mages. The game has changed since then. If/when they need buffs, adding it to them would probably be fine.

MotajoMar 16, 201514 votes

{quoted}Back when Shen was initially designed, tanks had some pretty large advantages over mages due to the strength of defensive items.

You'd think practices that are ~5 years obsolete would have been changed by now.

WheatloafMar 16, 201528 votes

You've never seen anyone run a country, then :3

SolaxoMar 17, 20155 votes

{quoted}

You've never seen anyone run a country, then :3

Are you seriously comparing single code change to managing a country?

WheatloafMar 17, 20155 votes

Governmental laws and systems tend to stay outdated for extended periods of time. You'd think someone would think to update them, given their importance. Thus, I drew what I considered to be a logical, if extreme, comparison. The overarching concept of my short message was that Riot is at worst running itself as well as any 1st-world country (though honestly, probably better).

Count TobiMar 17, 20152 votes

That's the sort of indirect snide cynicism that which should make us all glad you have the freedom of speech.

EDIT: But you give Riot too much credit.

DeliothMar 17, 20153 votes

At least Riot puts out updates on a consistent basis without having to wrestle with itself.

Better than one giant country that I can think of.

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20154 votes

Back in the days of FoN... The best of MR, spirit visage, and warmog's in a single item, the anti mage dream!

rinsujoMar 17, 20152 votes

And the MOVESPEED. God I miss FoN.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMar 17, 20152 votes

Singed main here, and no one misses it like I do

Focus TeemoMar 16, 201520 votes

Shen has higher base HP right? No...

Shen base HP 2016 Riven base HP 2020

(Shen also has lower base HP than MF... because tank lol)

Its ok because Shen's shield scales off of stats he actually builds.... oh wait that's Riven.

But Shen has low energy costs right... no... no he doesn't.

NarasimhaMar 17, 20156 votes

That's at level 18, and because she gets ONE more health per level than he does. For most of the laning phase, Shen has higher base hp. Also, as a general rule, tankier champions that have a shield in their kit tend to have lower bases, since they have access to essentially free temporary health. Excellent effort though.

Artist BogrimMar 17, 20157 votes

Comparing Riven to Shen is like comparing oranges to apples anyway, Shen is a terribly outdated Champion that was thought to be overpowered when split pushing was a new thing and Shen was considered to be the best one at it. The current meta on top lane demands you're in a lead in order to teleport gank and Shen's laning tools are so bad he can rarely ever ult without sacrificing a turret for it. Late game split push Shen barely even exists due to the fact that the other top laner will take TP as well (and follow him) while he has next to no real siege damage, wave clear or means of escape.

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20153 votes

That and Shen was never good at split pushing, he just had a teleport to keep him from being out of position. When you have 0 AoE except a sunfire cape and no DPS to speak of, you definitionally suck at split pushing.

King OdinMar 16, 201516 votes

What about singed, he needs MR per level too.

doublelift fgMar 16, 20152 votes

idk about him and maokai

ThefriendlyorcMar 16, 20158 votes

I agree with this, it would help him against getting bursted late game.

ofartMar 16, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=King Odarth,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EwFhr54O,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-16T21:22:13.800+0000)

What about singed, he needs MR per level too.

That would make him viable though. Since he lacks MR/lvl, he's weak vs the popular pokey (sp?) mages like Lissandra or Rumble. If he had mr/lvl he'd still be good vs melees while not suffering as much vs his counters. It could make him a strong general pick.

ThefriendlyorcMar 17, 20151 votes

So what? he's not going to unbearably burst people down, magic penetration is potent enough that all mages can make defenses irrelevant. It just seems stupid to have a tank with one hard cc and average damage not have defenses where he needs it.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMar 17, 20151 votes

I find that with 4k health, most mages don't want to burn cds on me. It's the ADCs that still get to do a fuck ton of damage to me because lol crit chance. Crit is the real armor pen. Last Whisper's pen will only get you like 17% increased damage in a best case scenario.

ThefriendlyorcMar 17, 20151 votes

Its more that if you build full tank you wont do damage and are ignored. If you build full AP/HP you die too quickly even with ult up, late game AP burst hurts like hell. And when your only damage source is a Dot. it tends to add up quickly if they have sustained damage.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMar 17, 20151 votes

item 3027 item 3116 item 3143 item 3102 item 3075 works well. Banshee can swap for abyssal or liandry's

ThefriendlyorcMar 17, 20151 votes

Yeah that'll be a fine build against any team without a single magic resist item who is running mostly ad. Any tank you face, hell, any bruiser you face will build the spectre cowl or whatever and continue to farm if not kill you. His ratios suck.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMar 19, 20151 votes

The poison's damage is deceptively high with a bit of AP. Its base is rather low, but at .3 per tick, singed is guaranteed a .9 scale if you touch it. That's fairly high.

ThefriendlyorcMar 19, 20151 votes

I can't double check atm, as I'm at work, but for dots, that's fairly low, I remember rumble having a 1.6 if not higher ratio for his flame thrower, and I know for sure malz dot is higher. Singed damage seems high because it's constant. If they have no defenses.

BobbyCarHaterXMar 16, 201510 votes

Also a Ad-scaling shield gg

IcyPepperMar 16, 201515 votes

Riven You mean I get rewarded defensively by building glass cannon with absolutely no punishment whatsoever and I get MR per level? THANKS RITO

NarasimhaMar 17, 20157 votes

Riven Now if only I had some decent health sustain, I might actually be able to do something about top lane..

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20154 votes

Her shield is better than any sort of health sustain, except maybe Garen's passive after level 11. It allows her to juke skill shots and absorb a ludicrous amount of damage, where if a tank gets hit by that skill shot or damage, it takes them 20 seconds to regen it.

NarasimhaMar 17, 20159 votes

Her shield has a cd. A good 10 sec CD in the laning phase, considering most people only put in one point and don't get CD (unless they rush an early brutalizer, though Tiamat is generally the better option.). If a tank gets hit by a skill, they may take 20 seconds to recover. If Riven is hit when her shield is off, it'll take her about twice to THREE times as long to heal back the same health. That's right, 45 seconds to a full minute.

Sir YamazukiMar 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Now if only I had some decent health sustain, I might actually be able to do something about top lane..

It might not be part of her kit, but it is part of her build. 1st completed item allows her to heal for big chunks for simply auto attacking, and her most common build includes a secondary life steal item as well. Yeah, clearly she has no health sustain. Almost killed her? jk she auto attacked a minion and got half her hp back.

NarasimhaMar 17, 20155 votes

And this makes her special...how?

Sir YamazukiMar 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

And this makes her special...how?

Because it means she has sustain... which you claimed she lacked. Which means you're wrong. Understand now?

NarasimhaMar 17, 20157 votes

Because it means she has sustain... which you claimed she lacked. Which means you're wrong. Understand now?

So as per your logic, Sona should never receive buffs to her base armor or health. Because she can build items to make up for it, right?

Sir YamazukiMar 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So as per your logic, Sona should never receive buffs to her base armor or health. Because she can build items to make up for it, right?

No, she is squishy for entirely different reasons. Not only that, but she's in no position to be receiving buffs.

NarasimhaMar 17, 20153 votes

...Ok, we're definitely off topic here, but you HAVE to explain this. There is a world of difference between your average squishy, and Sona. Sona starts off squishy, and remains squishy. In a lane where she is not allowed to be dominant, and has trouble with both poke based champs (Nami, Zyra, etc) and all in champs (Leona, Thresh, etc). I'm not saying go crazy with her. But at the least, her base armor and health per level could use some love. In fact, here are the champions with less health than Sona at level 18.

Karthus - His passive encourages having lower health LeBlanc - Has a good escape Sion - Has his passive Cass - Has a slow and an ms boost (actually, probably the most comparable to Sona) Heim - Has his passive for health regen, giving him health on top of that would be overkill Nami - Has easier access to hard cc and slows, has better sustain. Zyra - Has hard and soft cc Zilean - Has hard and soft cc Anivia - Has hard and soft cc (broken record time..) Gnar - Goes Mega.

Sir YamazukiMar 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

...Ok, we're definitely off topic here, but you HAVE to explain this. There is a world of difference between your average squishy, and Sona. Sona starts off squishy, and remains squishy. In a lane where she is not allowed to be dominant, and has trouble with both poke based champs (Nami, Zyra, etc) and all in champs (Leona, Thresh, etc). I'm not saying go crazy with her. But at the least, her base armor and health per level could use some love. In fact, here are the champions with less health than Sona at level 18.

Karthus - His passive encourages having lower health LeBlanc - Has a good escape Sion - Has his passive Cass - Has a slow and an ms boost (actually, probably the most comparable to Sona) Heim - Has his passive for health regen, giving him health on top of that would be overkill Nami - Has easier access to hard cc and slows, has better sustain. Zyra - Has hard and soft cc Zilean - Has hard and soft cc Anivia - Has hard and soft cc (broken record time..) Gnar - Goes Mega.

She wins more games against Nami than she loses, She wins more games against Thresh than she loses. The supports destroying her are Blitz, who is destroying every single support and not Sona specifically, Leona, and Brand/Zyra who again is also doing well against majority of supports and not just Sona; the others that aren't dominating as a whole that beat her are Taric and Sorarka. Her win rate with Exhaust- 52.39 and Ignite-55.44%. Her deaths are average and she is in the middle, so she isn't really dying a whole lot despite being squishy. For comparison, Zyra dies more than Sona does on average.

Please, do go on about how she's weak when she really isn't.

Anyways, I'm not going to further discuss Sona with a biased player, stats point towards her still winning unless countered, even when her pick rate was at nearly 50%, meaning people not knowing how to play her were picking her, she still was winning 52%+ of the time across all games.

Have a good day~

AriafluxMar 17, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sir Yamazuki,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EwFhr54O,comment-id=0000000100000002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-17T02:01:27.976+0000)

She wins more games against Thresh than she loses.

Don't really have anything against what you said but this comparison annoys me particularly since Thresh has more than 4 times the play rate as her and is only 3% lower in win rate.

junglerboy16Mar 17, 20152 votes

You have to look at Thresh vs Sona matches, not just Sona pick+win rate and Thresh pick+win rate. Overall Thresh gets picked a lot more than her, but whenever it is a Thresh vs Sona match (which they always get picked the same number of times for) Sona wins the majority of those games.

CarniverousMar 18, 20151 votes

Anivia - Has hard and soft cc (broken record time..)

Well, their main explanation for Anivia having the lowest health in league, was her passive. Any HP she builds is a 1 - 2 ratio while it's up. I can not count the times I have messed up a Kat engage, and see her not get her passive off in a team fight. Because she never kills me during her ult. (Have died in lane before, of course) ( At least her passive is not Zac's piece of crap passive. )

soliznoelMar 17, 20158 votes

It's ok for mages to have ap scaling shields like lux when they build AP offensively right? perfectly fine,but not riven? Riven can't really afford to build defensively because then she loses damage, mages can still build glass cannon and have a AP scaling shields because THEY BUILDS WHAT THEY NEEDS. Riven will also reamain squishy because she will usually build AD only. If they change her shield to AP it wouldn't work, because all her abilities including her passive scale of AD. Also giving her mana wouldn't work because would she prioritize CDR or mana? and she would either always have too much mana or have way too little mana. And then she can actually have a reason to buy Tri force instead of "im supa fed"

junglerboy16Mar 17, 201512 votes

I would agree with that except for one thing: Mages that build AP and have a shield worth anything sacrifice a damaging ability for that shield, where Riven makes no such trade off because auto attacks scale with AD instead of AP, so one non damaging ability that allows her to get a ton of right click damage is when things become not ok.

soliznoelMar 17, 20153 votes

i would argue mages don't need mobility since they should be staying toward the back line anyways. Riven also needs the mobility/shield, if she wants to stay a frontline champion(if you lean toward her fighter style) because riven is not innately tanky.

i tend to lean toward her assasin playstyle, and look for good flanks, because imo, she's not that reliable of a front liner atm

TheUntitledKingMar 17, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Is's ok for mages to have ap scaling shields like lux when they build AP offensively right? perfectly fine,but not riven? Riven can't really afford to build defebsively because then she loses damage, mages can still build glass cannon and have a AP scaling shields because THEY BUILDS WHAT THEY NEEDS.

Lux doesnt have 2 hard cc's (or even one), obscene mobility, low cooldowns and no mana.