What about you play Vayne first to find out her counterplay?

Ahristocats·Aug 9, 2017·33 votes·1,535 views

what about bruiser mains for once, try to play a fcking adc and see how it is instead of spamming brainlessly Garen?

Since like 2013 vayne is nerfed and buffed every 3 months

because she destroys low elo, then gets nerfed, then buffed, then destroy low elo again?

If you think Vayne doesn't have a short range then play her, play her and see if something that cannot damage further than 550 range and is squishy af and IS SINGLE TARGET is easy to teamfight with

low elo probably tries to 1v1 a duelist that is ALL about single target and then come back and QQ here and how do i know that? because i watch my plat friend playing against her as j4 and laugh every single time

worst part of all of this? vayne is becomming x1000 more healthier since they're removing her Q crit, but board is still going to complain even if her damage is going to be more delayed now

i give it 1 month before she gets nerfed again because of low elo

{quoted}

This is the typical tips Fiora m'lady post I'd expect from a Vayne main.

i main Darius and Morde i just happen to be smart, i know it's hard to believe comming from vayne circlejerk

85 Comments

RalanrAug 9, 201715 votes

My issue with Vayne is how much more difficult it becomes to shut her down if she snowballs. I know that's kinda the point of a hyper carry, but at least some weaknesses remain that can be abused by champions designed to take them out.

This healing buff on her ult kinda sticks a middle finger to one of her most basic weaknesses: being squishy.

If no one can kill her in a teamfight before she kills or gets an assist against a tank with her ult, then most damage she took becomes null with the amount of healing she can get. Combined with PD, and Bork, she basically acts like a drain tank imo.

Does this ult passive have an internal cooldown? Or can she get multiple heals off in a fight if she gets enough assists in the short time frame?

AhristocatsAug 9, 20176 votes

{quoted}

My issue with Vayne is how much more difficult it becomes to shut her down if she snowballs.

i don't know if it's relevant, i don't remember a champion that is easy to shut down if snowbaling

{quoted}

This healing buff on her ult kinda sticks a middle finger to one of her most basic weaknesses: being squishy.

yes, but board is not talking about vayne's buff board is just complaining about vayne being "unhealthy" and should never be buffed

i agree that buff is retarded

{quoted}

If no one can kill her in a teamfight before she kills or gets an assist against a tank with her ult, then most damage she took becomes null with the amount of healing she can get. Combined with PD, and Bork, she basically acts like a drain tank imo.

true

{quoted}

Does this ult passive have an internal cooldown? Or can she get multiple heals off in a fight if she gets enough assists in the short time frame?

good question

RalanrAug 9, 201711 votes

When I mean easy to shut down, I mean that their design has weaknesses that are still exploitable.

Darius can still be kited, Twitch is still squishy (though the window gets shorter I'll admit) etc.

The boards don't have a healthy history with Vayne. What surprises me is that even Reddit is complaining about it. Reddit loves ADCs.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20172 votes

If darius is ahead he will win the game almost everytime he gets so much base stats with level and stat check people with base stats IF ahead in levels

RalanrAug 9, 20175 votes

But he can still get kited. That weakness doesn't really go away (it can get harder with some items, but that's kinda like ADCs buying lifesteal).

THE RlVER KlNGAug 9, 20171 votes

i thought you said darius is perfect design and has counterplay

now it's 'an ahead darius autowins games'

color me confused

AhristocatsAug 9, 20171 votes

Darius being ahead is not relevant to a design discussion

i was just showing that everyone can snowball easily the game because i didn't say i "auto win" i said "i win most of the time"

Bouncemaster ZacAug 9, 20176 votes

Vayne's weaknesses vanished when they made her stealth unbreakable and buffed the shit out of adc+support itemization.

EngelinAug 9, 20171 votes

51% winrate in all ranks bronze thru plat+ is "no weaknesses?"

More like, "a bit strong" lmfao

DaNinadAug 9, 20172 votes

But twitch with constant 58% dropping a bit in higher elos at 55 is fine right?

EngelinAug 9, 20171 votes

No one mentioned Twitch. Here are Vayne's winrates in each rank, according to op.gg:

Vayne, all ranks: 50.23% Vayne, bronze: 50.12% Vayne, silver: 50.29% Vayne, gold: 50.54% Vayne, plat: 50.31% Vayne, diamond: 50.84% Vayne, master: 60.94% Vayne, challenger: 47.46%

Now since we're talking about Twitch, let's talk about the real problem. #Plat and above: http://i.imgur.com/4ym8thX.png #Plat: http://i.imgur.com/3Tr1N7k.png #Gold: http://i.imgur.com/oEwoAiD.png #Silver: http://i.imgur.com/UnYZCsT.png #Bronze: http://i.imgur.com/YJWqsBt.png

Also, twitch's winrate in each elo is between 53 and 55, not 58.

Edit: Actually, according to op.gg, his winrate in bronze is 50, silver 51, gold 52, plat 52, diamond 54, master 62, challenger 62.

How the hell is that "dropping at higher elos"

#According to op.gg, Janna has the highest winrate in all ranks gold through diamond, dropping to "only" 58% in master, and """"only"""" 61% in challenger. She has the second-highest winrate in silver (the largest tier). Janna + Ardent Censer is the problem. It just so happens that her synergy with Twitch is ludicrous.

Janna is the very definition of freelo from gold and beyond.

######All "off the top of my head" numbers (not prefaced or followed by, "according to op.gg" are from champion.gg)

To expand on why Ardent Censer is a problem: It was buffed to keep up with the other support items, Redemption and Locket, when they were core on every single support. When Redemption and Locket were nerfed, Ardent Censer was untouched. This allowed supports and ADCs who could abuse it the hardest Janna Twitch to dominate the meta. http://i.imgur.com/VhxEuIr.png

DaNinadAug 9, 20171 votes

champion.gg is not a reliable source. Riot even said that once.

EngelinAug 9, 20171 votes

Only the screenshots and numbers that I later correct are from champion.gg. Everything else is from op.gg, the most reliable source.

DaNinadAug 9, 20171 votes

And tell me how is having a 50% win rate a "bit strong". It's literally perfectly balanced. Her pick rate isn't massive like Jhin's either.

EngelinAug 9, 20171 votes

I'm arguing that Vayne IS NOT op. Based on the 51% from champion.gg, I said she's "a bit strong," rather than "no counterplay." In a later comment, I corrected that statistic with data from op.gg.

Read the entirety of my first reply @you.

Daddy AntsAug 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

51% winrate in all ranks bronze thru plat+ = "no weaknesses?"

More like, "a bit strong" lmfao

51 a bit strong?

LOL

Meanwhile Draven and Twitch are sitting at 53+

EngelinAug 9, 20171 votes

I was responding to someone who said "all of Vayne's weaknesses vanished"

51% is "a bit strong," not "a champion with no weaknesses"

I am VERY CLEARLY arguing that Vayne is fine as she is.

Also see this comment:

{quoted}

No one mentioned Twitch. Here are Vayne's winrates in each rank, according to op.gg:

Vayne, all ranks: 50.23% Vayne, bronze: 50.12% Vayne, silver: 50.29% Vayne, gold: 50.54% Vayne, plat: 50.31% Vayne, diamond: 50.84% Vayne, master: 60.94% Vayne, challenger: 47.46%

Now since we're talking about Twitch, let's talk about the real problem. #Plat and above: http://i.imgur.com/4ym8thX.png #Plat: http://i.imgur.com/3Tr1N7k.png #Gold: http://i.imgur.com/oEwoAiD.png #Silver: http://i.imgur.com/UnYZCsT.png #Bronze: http://i.imgur.com/YJWqsBt.png

Also, twitch's winrate in each elo is between 53 and 55, not 58.

Edit: Actually, according to op.gg, his winrate in bronze is 50, silver 51, gold 52, plat 52, diamond 54, master 62, challenger 62.

How the hell is that "dropping at higher elos"

#According to op.gg, Janna has the highest winrate in all ranks gold through diamond, dropping to "only" 58% in master, and """"only"""" 61% in challenger. She has the second-highest winrate in silver (the largest tier). Janna + Ardent Censer is the problem. It just so happens that her synergy with Twitch is ludicrous.

Janna is the very definition of freelo from gold and beyond.

######All "off the top of my head" numbers (not prefaced or followed by, "according to op.gg" are from champion.gg)

To expand on why Ardent Censer is a problem: It was buffed to keep up with the other support items, Redemption and Locket, when they were core on every single support. When Redemption and Locket were nerfed, Ardent Censer was untouched. This allowed supports and ADCs who could abuse it the hardest to dominate the meta. http://i.imgur.com/VhxEuIr.png

ParoeAug 9, 20175 votes

item 3031 item 3087 item 3147 item 3006 item 3153 item 3508

"Im just a squishy single target champion who does AoE magic burst damage on top of critting for 1000 total damage, turning invisible every 0.8 seconds, and having a soon to be 14% max health true damage i dont have to work for!" Lol

Vayne is a terrible champion concept and should be reworked to be more skill shots less point and click. Vayne has 0 skillshots; She right clicks you and youre dead within 5 seconds. Vayne is the definition of a stat stick champion, and unlike other stat sticks like shyvana vayne has all the tools a champion heavily reliant on SKILL SHOTS has, with the burst damage of a syndra and the safety of a khazix.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20178 votes

{quoted}

what a garbage itemization, i don't even know why i'm talking with bronze adcs not building last whisper when vayne's damage is nearly 77% physical

{quoted}

AoE magic burst damage

magic damage XD

MAGIC DAMAGE LMFAO

{quoted}

on top of critting for 1000 total damage

no clue how you get those numbers since Q can't crit anymore

{quoted}

turning invisible every 0.8 seconds, and having a soon to be 14% max health true damage i dont have to work for!"

except that you have to hit someone for 3 attacks

and once again, if you think it's easy to hit the SAME target in a chaotic teamfight 3 times in a row without swapping targets WHICH MAKES YOU LOSING DAMAGE comparing to an other adc

then you're garbage

{quoted}

Vayne is the definition of a stat stick champion

she is a stat stick champ in 1v1

but in high elo you see, game is not 1v1 and this is what low elo can't get

ParoeAug 9, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ew4ZLUnc,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2017-08-09T15:01:16.770+0000)

what a garbage itemization, i don't even why i'm talking with bronze adcs not building last whisper when vayne's damage is nearly 77% physical

You dont pick vayne into tanks anymore, you pick vayne into hyper squishies to burst them faster than they burst you. Last whisper items have been situational for well over a year now. Also, that build is a semi-standard one; most vaynes i see get duskblade because she can proc it extremely well and essence reaver is a whopping 30% CDR.

magic damage XD MAGIC DAMAGE LMFAO

Because shiv is ~150 AoE magic damage, and vayne can proc it three to four times in a single ult depending on how high her CDR is.

no clue how you get those numbers since Q can't crit anymore

55 on duskblade+ 70 on iE+70 on ult+70 on essence reaver + 40 on botrk +84 base = 972 crit damage. Combined with duskblades 300 and shivs 160, thats well over a thousand. And vayne can do it consistently, something that is only shared with khazix. Im not even counting her Q and W damage here. (Admittedly im not factoring in resistances either)

except that you have to hit someone for 3 attacks

So? When your 2.5 total AD point and click nuke has a 0.5 second cooldown it hardly matters. Its something that doesnt need to be worked for and just serves to stat check.

and once again, if you think it's easy to hit the SAME target in a chaotic teamfight 3 times in a row without swapping targets WHICH MAKES YOU LOSING DAMAGE comparing to an other adc then you're garbage

Thats like saying its hard for phantom assassin or cancer lancer to stay on a single target. Its a fallacy because of how much burst and safety those kinds of characters have; sure you can lose track of things, but by the time the engage is over a smart carry would have already tried to burst down the enemy carry and either succeeded or failed. In vaynes case, she would succeed most of the time because her stats and safety is that much stronger than her opponents.

Honestly your argument here assumes that vayne is bad in the first place. Any GOOD vayne will be invisible and repositioning the quarter second that they get caught by an enemy frontline. Not to mention theres usually at least two squishies for vayne to focus on.... "the enemy ADC is shielded and peeled? R tumble to the enemy mid laner and show them the meaning of black magic! then ill go back to the ADC when their shield wears off."
Do you think its hard for lucian to stay on target too?

she is a stat stick champ in 1v1 but in high elo you see, game is not 1v1 and this is what low elo can't get

Why are you using ELO to bolster your "argument" when your argument relies on vayne being bad in the first place to justify your entire narrative? Vayne isnt just a stat stick 1v1, shes a stat stick in all situations because her ult makes her extremely low cooldown Q turn her INVISIBLE. You CANNOT pin down a champion who can turn invisible AND reliably three shot someone with only 1600 health. Further, vayne is all point and click with static buffs. Her ult is a flat AD increase with added skill effects, her W is (as of live) an effective 4% max health true damage per auto, and her Q is an auto attack reset.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20173 votes

{quoted}

You dont pick vayne into tanks anymore, you pick vayne into hyper squishies to burst them faster

what can't you understand in Q not critting anymore?

Because shiv is ~150 AoE magic damage, and vayne can proc it three to four times

doesn't matter, it's magic damage so its shit because she can't do anything to increase the damage

55 on duskblade+ 70 on iE+70 on ult+70 on essence reaver + 40 on botrk +84 base = 972 crit damage. Combined with duskblades 300 and shivs 160, thats well over a thousand. And vayne can do it consistently, something that is only shared with khazix

this itemization is garbage

Im not even counting her Q and W damage here.

so? your point is that she deals damage?

So? When your 2.5 total AD point and click nuke has a 0.5 second cooldown

other champions have more, and sometimes in AOE XD

Thats like saying its hard for phantom assassin or cancer lancer to stay on a single target.

how the fuck, dota 2 heroes are related to vayne?

Any GOOD vayne will

doesn't matter, a good player on a champion is always better than a bad player

Why are you using ELO to bolster your "argument"

my argument is that we do not 1v1 vayne in high elo is this also hard to understand?

Vayne isnt just a stat stick 1v1, shes a stat stick in all situations

then you didn't read above she GETS STAT CHECKED HERSELF by other marksmen since they will kill her team faster

PoskeAug 9, 20171 votes

There have been multiple times in a past where vayne players didnt build last whisper like items because attackspeed and more silver bolts did the same

I wouldnt build last whisper at her unless up against 3 tanks atleast.. You are better of stacking zeals.. botrk

I agree with the rest...

He was refferring to shiv criting doing magic dmg... btw

sutora3Aug 9, 20171 votes

I think that he meant that she could crit with duskblade and even tho her q doesnt crit it still deals 50% ad damage yes that build is bad but it could crit for +1000(with duskblade)

MetallmeisterAug 9, 20175 votes

[deleted]

AhristocatsAug 9, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Her Q crit nerf is slim peanuts compared to 2 auto'd W's.

you mean, that bug that got fixed into 1 hour on pbe?

Sun Wu RyuumokuAug 9, 20174 votes

low elo probably tries to 1v1 a duelist that is ALL about single target and then come back and QQ here and how do i know that? because i watch my plat friend playing against her as j4 and laugh every single time

??? what do u mean here ? do u inclued plat in low elo ? do ur friends rekt her ??

Cause yeah the level of plat is low, but its mid elo tbh. For what's left, nothing to add.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20172 votes

my plat friend played j4 his entire team was pushing tier 2 mid tower, enemy vayne was alone botlane at tier 1 tower

and instead of going mid to finish the game with his team, he went bot and tried to 1v1 vayne and died his team lost the teamfight

this is what happens, people try to 1v1 vayne for no reasons instead of forcing her to teamfight and if she doesn't teamfight, her team doesn't have the DPS to win the game

SalronAug 9, 20174 votes

That stuff happens all the way up to D2 from my experience

People think they're hot shit and then do stuff like that all the time

PennsAug 9, 20172 votes

she has no counterplay tho except staying away from walls cause of her E lul

AhristocatsAug 9, 20173 votes

no counterplay and except can not be in the same sentence

as long as you can do something it means there is counterplay

also you're talking about 1v1, not 5v5

vayne is all about single target while other adcs get to deal AOE damage, and most of the time from longer range (yes even draven) this is the counterplay to vayne, she's worse at teamfighting than other adcs in any way

PennsAug 9, 201710 votes

Vayne has a dash and stealth on very low cooldown, she is fine if she can kite back (or just assassinate the assassins xd) in teamfights, especially since she shreds front line faster than pretty much any other adc.

So youre Darius, Vayne is over there. Can you go and outplay her damage, or dodge it? No cause its all auto attacks hehe. Other than her E which doesnt matter because its still a knockback, she has no counterplay like most adcs.

Just look at the newer adcs, they have actual counterplay now that Riot cares more about it than when they made champs like Annie. You can play around Xayah E and Jhin has skillshots + a reload window where you can fite him.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Vayne has a dash and stealth on very low cooldown, she is fine if she can kite back (or just assassinate the assassins xd)

good luck to do that once Q won't crit anymore, i don't get why people aren't getting the amount of damage she's losing with that Q damage will go like from 475% ad ratio to 300%

also, Q cd is still existant, and if you think it isn't then try it yourself

{quoted}

in teamfights, especially since she shreds front line faster than pretty much any other adc.

No, she pretty much only shred tanks with %damage reduction faster

twitch doesn't have %true damage on hp, but will kill a tank as fast as vayne

{quoted}

So youre Darius, Vayne is over there. Can you go and outplay her damage, or dodge it? No cause its all auto attacks hehe.

yeah, low elo think just about dodging

delayed damage is not a counterplay for them while riot literally said vlad is healthy now even if his Q is point and click and E is an area around him

{quoted}

Other than her E which doesnt matter because its still a knockback, she has no counterplay like most adcs.

look above

{quoted}

Just look at the newer adcs, they have actual counterplay now

and get way more strength than vayne like it's written above: vayne cannot damage multiple target has limited range and you know what? she actually has a delayed power curve, try to do anything atm before IE+shiv

don't tell me BORK, new one with less AS is garbage on her which is the reason it isn't built anymore on her

{quoted}

You can play around Xayah E and Jhin has skillshots + a reload window where you can fite him.

you can play around vayne in teamfight not in 1v1

PennsAug 9, 20177 votes

She loses 125% AD scaling with IE if she crits, like I said in another thread its a lot against squishies.

Vlad has to stack his Q in lane and charge his E up, both are visible + you can walk away because he is immobile so he has counterplay, Vayne doesnt have that. Her W doesnt do much damage since she builds crit and you cant walk away from her.

So how do you play around Vayne in a teamfight? There is nothing to dodge or play around, you count ccing and trying to blow her up as counterplay?

If they reworked Vayne rn, theres no way they dont implement something like an important skillshot (like Urgot Q) or windows of weakness like Jhins reload.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20174 votes

{quoted}

you count ccing and trying to blow her up as counterplay?

No, blowing her entire team before she blows your tank is a viable counterplay because she has only single target damage

and she has 550 range, last time i checked this is a weakness

Vlad Q has to be stacked just like vayne W, except it can be stacked on multiple targets and vlad Q has higher range+gives him movement speed

and it's still healthy, because it takes time

RalanrAug 9, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ew4ZLUnc,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-09T15:34:01.746+0000)

No, blowing her entire team before she blows your tank is a viable counterplay

Because ignoring the carry is a great idea in a teamfight

AhristocatsAug 9, 20171 votes

since the carry has single target damage, and your carry has aoe damage, i think it can work yes?

RalanrAug 9, 20175 votes

Who said my carry had AoE? And frankly, not really since any decent comp around Vayne is usually built like a brick house or has some way to prevent you from engaging onto them.

And you just wasted all your cooldowns on every other champion except the carry that has an advantage in AA fights. A carry that gets bonus MS when running towards enemies so fleeing becomes much more difficult.

And if she killed the tank in that fight she's more than likely close to full HP.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Who said my carry had AoE?

me, because current meta soloq (win rate wise) adc are MF twitch sivir trist draven Jinx and trist is the only one without AOE damage

and when you look at the others, most of them have AOE damage

lucian xayah varus corki Kog comes to my mind

RalanrAug 9, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=i am Rubick Sama,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ew4ZLUnc,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-08-09T16:11:17.160+0000)

me, because current meta soloq (win rate wise) adc are MF twitch sivir trist draven Jinx

And what if my carry isn't AoE?

and trist is the only one without AOE damage

....

Are you high? Her bombs and passive are AoE Rubik.

PennsAug 9, 20178 votes

Not sure but I dont think Riot would agree with "kill x champs whole team" being counterplay to that champ tbh.

The reason I dont want her buffed is because crit is still busted since all the buffs to it, just look at what happened with Trist, she was "garbage" like 1-2 months ago or whatever. Now they are probably gonna nerf Draven Trist Twitch soon.

GayFluffyUnicornAug 9, 20171 votes

Riot didn'T say shit about vlad. Nothing is healthy about vlad, riot said multiple times this is the only champ they wished they never created. Just because vlad is less bullshit than before doesn't make it healthy and he is not.

lonofAug 9, 20172 votes

It's not like tanks have a 3 items that counter her and a one that makes her heal 40% less.

RalanrAug 9, 20173 votes

If you mean omen, FH, and thorn, then it's only two. Thorn and omen do not stack well with each other.

lonofAug 10, 20171 votes

Ninja tabi, Omen if the team has crit users, frozen heart and thornmail. Also Omen really doesn't stack? Lol

RalanrAug 10, 20171 votes

Omen doesn't stack with thornmail.

2DunksFromHellAug 9, 20172 votes

TBH I wasn't expecting morde darius main to actually be reasonable when it comes to tank destroyer vayne, but I gotta ask what's your opinion on her new R heal changes? it's 20% max hp from killed enemy champions so if you kill tank let's say Sion Darius or any other that has 4000hp, keep in mind that she has a lot more true damage and her Q applies 2 stacks of W, that's 800hp restoration MINIMUM, her ult lasts pretty damn long already so it's safe to say she can kill 2 people, and add BOTRK and spirit visage to that

AhristocatsAug 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

but I gotta ask what's your opinion on her new R heal changes?

it's too much, should be at least 10%

SujirenAug 9, 20171 votes

I am a top lane main since s4, but ocasionally play mid and adc depending on my mood since I mained those roles aswell at different points. Draven, Vayne and Jhin are my favourite adcs. And you know what this is coming from toplane main, she isin't even close to high skill cap. All you have to do is to keep up in farm, hit your powerspikes since she is more item reliant than other adcs, and then you just beast every other adc with your stealth 1 vs 1 and shred tanks in tfs without ever having to build last whisper.

Ppl who saying vayne is difficult are the same people saying yasuo is difficult when in reality they are just brain dead auto attackers.

AhristocatsAug 9, 20171 votes

{quoted}

, she isin't even close to high skill cap.

this thread isn't about skill cap this thread is about people not getting what is the weakness of vayne

{quoted}

you just beast every other adc with your stealth 1 vs 1 and shred tanks in tfs without ever having to build last whisper.

ok, how is that a bad thing?

{quoted}

Ppl who saying vayne is difficult are the same people saying yasuo is difficult when in reality they are just brain dead auto attackers.

yasuo is not a brain dead auto attacker and vayne is not difficult doesn't matter in a balance and design thread

SujirenAug 9, 20172 votes

The only thing vayne has to do is go even in lane, and she pretty much auto wins, which frankly isin't that hard anymore when you have warlords, dorans shield, masteries like perserverance to get you through the early game. And her low range isin't much of an issue rapid fire partially counters that which is built alongside shiv. And Yasuo is a brain dead auto attacker. He has like one skillshot that you don't even use much outside laning phase, because damage wise its more efficient to dash onto people to get e q knock up, since you can get an extra aa before ulting that way.