Do people who play carries (mainly marksman) not understand defense?

Trash MammaI·Sep 12, 2015·5 votes·1,082 views

That the concept of building armor lets you take less physical damage and magic resist let's you take less magic damage?

Do they honestly NOT comprehend that? In just about every game I play where the marksman is whining or bitching about no peels it's usually because they die in the blink of an eye. We CAN NOT peel off 5 people from ONE person that gets 1 shot by any of them.

Build a damn randuin or visage or merc or ga or ZHONYA FOR FKS SAKE. Gets really fking irritating having adcs(marksman) nag your ears off about peel when they're too stubborn to get a single defensive item cause "I need muh damages"

29 Comments

RenailleSep 12, 20158 votes

We CAN NOT peel off 5 people from ONE person that gets 1 shot by any of them.

Janna Speak for yourself.

Trash MammaISep 12, 20152 votes

Janna's a special kind of cockblock..I won't include her and Kalista even though she's a marksman..she's just flat out bs

CrettSep 12, 20151 votes

Literally every ability she has is devoted to preservation of the ADC Slows, Knockup, Knockback, Shield, Heals, SHE GOT IT ALL

Too TonSep 12, 20157 votes

Their job is to do the most damage on the team. Maybe one item like banshees or ga maybe randuin if the enemy is 5 ad but most part damage not defense.

Critmaster GarenSep 12, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Too Ton,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvyoNclE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-09-12T03:46:54.623+0000)

Their job is to do the most damage on the team. Maybe one item like banshees or ga maybe randuin if the enemy is 5 ad but most part damage not defense.

still, a marksman should know when to get a defensive item. grabbing a chain vest that he can later build into a g.a., or grabbing a giants belt is appropriate if he does die too fast in fights.

a dead marksman deals less damage than one who builds a giants belt over a pickaxe and lives through a fight.

redniwediSSep 12, 20151 votes

Technically their job is to do the most sustained damage. Burst champions can easily do more when properly applied.

If you want to get really technical the ADC's only job is to take down towers when positioning to siege. Everything else they do isn't in their job description, even though we play them to fill those extra bits.

They can be mobile death assassins and walking turrets of critical destruction, but the one key similarity between them all is their role in taking defended towers without requiring a tower dive.

IcyPepperSep 12, 20151 votes

I think OP is advocating just getting one singular defensive item, two would be overdoing it

Bill GatezSep 12, 20154 votes

You can buy 1 defensive item as adc, but generally, you want to rush your 2-3 item power spike, because it's kind of your job to shred tanks. If you delay your dps spikes to be slightly more tanky, you might survive, but you won't be doing the levels of damage your team needs from that position.

Mages get built in defenses, armor, health, and magic resist from commonly built items. Adc do not, so they have to divert from their core build in order to build defenses. If your adc is dying too often, I don't think it's a matter of items. The problem might be incorrect positioning, and failure to recognize incoming threats, zone of threat, and dynamic zone of threat before it's too late.

HopFroggerSep 12, 20154 votes

An ADC generally has armor in their runes, and then should NOT build a defensive item until at least 3 full damage items are done. If you see a Kalista with item 3153 item 3072 item 3085 item 1300 then you should rejoice, as she is doing her job right, and will carry you. If you see item 3143 item 3047 then you should probably run for the hills.

An ADC has sustain by life-steal on their attacks, and survivability from MAYBE a item 3044 early on. If you're expecting them to build tank items, you have incorrect expectations, and should learn more about the game. It's that easy. ADCs survive fights by lifesteal and good positioning; they shouldn't tanking for you.

FiveofswordsSep 12, 20152 votes

the adc saying they need their damages are right. you are wrong. The adc is there to do damage, and nothing else. they are not for any utility, no gimmicks. the midlaner is often a bit more defensive based and offers more utility and such. But the person responsible for actually killing people is the adc. the adc might be blamed for being caught out of position or something...but if you can peel and u don't that's your fault. you should always be aware of where the adc is in teamfights. people usually don't they just stare at whoever they are trying to kill.

kaykalosSep 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

the adc saying they need their damages are right. you are wrong. The adc is there to do damage, and nothing else. they are not for any utility, no gimmicks. the midlaner is often a bit more defensive based and offers more utility and such. But the person responsible for actually killing people is the adc. the adc might be blamed for being caught out of position or something...but if you can peel and u don't that's your fault. you should always be aware of where the adc is in teamfights. people usually don't they just stare at whoever they are trying to kill.

Juggernauts and fighters (sometimes) too then, because they are indirect squishy if u take 30% more damage at TFs because u are meele and ur kit offers only damage (nearly zero utility) but u are only 25% tankier, u cant tell to this person to tank for u, they are there to flank and kill people 2 not to peel for adcs (most times).

FiveofswordsSep 12, 20151 votes

a melee champ will absolutely never have the same damage potential as the adc champs. if you go glass cannon melee which is popular among scrubs then you are made useless from say, a snare...or from just getting blown up. They should stop thinking so much about themselves and consider who the real damage is in a teamfight, or who it should be. Things just depends on the team composition its not some set in stone rule that x peels and y initiates and z does damage. stuff just happens. but you think about the team as a whole in teamfights and not just your own kdr. If your adc is dying too fast that is a very serious problem. maybe its the adc fault maybe not. either way u may be able to do something about it.

kaykalosSep 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

a melee champ will absolutely never have the same damage potential as the adc champs. if you go glass cannon melee which is popular among scrubs then you are made useless from say, a snare...or from just getting blown up. They should stop thinking so much about themselves and consider who the real damage is in a teamfight, or who it should be. Things just depends on the team composition its not some set in stone rule that x peels and y initiates and z does damage. stuff just happens. but you think about the team as a whole in teamfights and not just your own kdr. If your adc is dying too fast that is a very serious problem. maybe its the adc fault maybe not. either way u may be able to do something about it.

If a squishy dps dives to your adc, u will fight him (as fighter or juggernaut) , but if a tank or tanky fighter do that, and i have a priority target in my range, I will go for him (go peel urself), because i am not a tank to take damage for u, but if u are far behind y u will peel (u cant do nothing else), if i go to tank damage for my adc while i am not the tank, I will lose. tank adc> juggernaut or fighter adc when both of them peel for adc! fighter or juggenaut will lose the most times(if the fighter go for peel ) , exception maybe when ur adc is fed af.

XinZhao2WinNhaoSep 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

a melee champ will absolutely never have the same damage potential as the adc champs.

you're right. they do not. they have higher ad in their base stats and usually have multipliers as Yi and Trynd so in fact they have more damage potential

FiveofswordsSep 12, 20151 votes

not against other champs. the fact they have to engage in melee range means they cannot do nearly the damage a ranged champ could.

XinZhao2WinNhaoSep 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

not against other champs. the fact they have to engage in melee range means they cannot do nearly the damage a ranged champ could.

watch me outdamage ranged freelo champs in almost every game in my match history

I literally eat ranged champions up for breakfast, that's how I get so fed every game

SaiannaSep 12, 20151 votes

That logic is wrong.. Soo wrong...

HopFroggerSep 12, 20152 votes

By the way, OP, build a ravenous hydra on Shaco, not a titanic hydra. You'll see why.

Trash MammaISep 12, 20151 votes

I have a tank shaco build and assassin shaco build I use hydra on assassin and titanic on tank. Both work

HopFroggerSep 12, 20151 votes

Rushing titanic hydra is not effective. You are welcome to disagree; you would benefit from a different build path.

Baby GhoulSep 12, 20151 votes

I don't think their problem is what they build. Honestly if the enemy team catches them, they're done for. 3 defensive items is not going to do anything for them besides help them withstand some pokes when they should not be receiving any. They shouldn't be building defensively. More than 1 defensive item makes them useless. IMO the ADC role is already waning unless you're Vayne.

ADCs in my experience do not understand positioning. I had an Ashe in one of my games act like she was an Irelia. She was in front of the team fights the whole time. She also did not know how to stand behind minions, and left herself open to so many weak Blitzcrank grabs. It was depressing. The only defensive things they should be doing, besides building maybe one defensive item, is standing behind the team and making use of their range and damage.

Trash MammaISep 12, 20151 votes

That's why I used the key word "or" in my OP. I don't expect them to build more than 1 defensive item but I have people who will build 2-3 PD's at full build instead of a ga OR randuin OR visage..or anything

Baby GhoulSep 12, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Simple Tora,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvyoNclE,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-09-12T09:34:48.528+0000)

That's why I used the key word "or" in my OP. I don't expect them to build more than 1 defensive item but I have people who will build 2-3 PD's at full build instead of a ga OR randuin OR visage..or anything

If they're building more than 1 PD, then they're probably not playing seriously anyways. Typically ADCs will build GA, but only as their last item. It works when games are close late game. I do see many ADCs buying Banshees Veil when there's a fed APC like Leblanc. However it's usually their 4th or 5th item. The only defensive item I see ADCs spring for early is QSS for Zeds when they're ahead.

Anything other than those items for each situation, then it starts to bring them down. Their first 3 or 4 items should always be offensive. Your team is not magically going to start winning fights because the ADC build Randuins as their first or second item. If they're out of position, then they're going poof either way. In fact, it is going to put them behind when they do that. Positioning matters so much in that role because they are squishy. I'm a support main, so I know what divas ADCs can be, but they really do need their damage to be relevant.

FiveofswordsSep 12, 20152 votes

I often find myself being in the front line as adc. This is not always the adc fault. for one thing u need to shoot towers. another thing is until very high level it seems like the majority of tanks are friggen terrified of ever engaging. they prefer to wait until after the adc gets killed, then they engage. So this is just the standard bronzie patter, adc engages, does whatever damage it can, gets killed, then finally the tanks engage and win the teamfight. or they lose, and blame the adc. The source of the problem is that nobody wants to be the first one to die, even when that's obviously their job as the initiatior.

Baby GhoulSep 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I often find myself being in the front line as adc. This is not always the adc fault. for one thing u need to shoot towers. another thing is until very high level it seems like the majority of tanks are friggen terrified of ever engaging. they prefer to wait until after the adc gets killed, then they engage. So this is just the standard bronzie patter, adc engages, does whatever damage it can, gets killed, then finally the tanks engage and win the teamfight. or they lose, and blame the adc. The source of the problem is that nobody wants to be the first one to die, even when that's obviously their job as the initiatior.

ADCs who follow that pattern do little damage because when they're caught out of position, a fighter like Irelia, who is an engager, will jump on them, lock them down, and blast them off the map in an instant. After that the enemy team will go in, and your team will get slaughtered.

ADCs need to learn their place is not in the front of the team, because that's always how you lose fights. If your team is too scared to engage, then the solution is not to be the first one re-spawning. It would be much more effective to take a support and split push. I don't know anyone who is too afraid engage in bronze though. It seems like when I was climbing through bronze team fights were happening too often.

FiveofswordsSep 12, 20151 votes

you dont understnad...i dont WANT to be in the front. i know about positioning, but when your teamates are terrified, you dont have much of a choice.

Baby GhoulSep 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

you dont understnad...i dont WANT to be in the front. i know about positioning, but when your teamates are terrified, you dont have much of a choice.

Stop doing that! You're hurting your team more than you're helping it. When you're out of position you make it 10x easier for the enemy to lock you down with snare, silence, or stun then you're gone in an instant. I cannot tell you what a pet peeve this is of mine. It's a big sign that shows you're going to lose the game, or have a steep up hill fight. When the ADC is out, the other team can go in and wreak havoc. Please learn the importance of positioning, or play a role where you can engage like a top laner.

In another thread I saw a clever idea with Tahm Kench. They eat the ADC who runs in the front to die, then spits them all the way to the back. It's what I'm going to start doing. ADCs are not engagers, and they never will be. If your team isn't fighting, they aren't fighting. The answer isn't to get 2 AAs off and then die. You lose so much gold, and the enemy gains more.