Thornmail gutted too hard, please consider this small adjustment

Valhalla Rising·Oct 3, 2015·53 votes·2,178 views

currently deals 15% of damage taken from basic attacks (+25% bonus armor).

I feel that it should deal 20% of damage taken by basic attacks and 20% bonus armor.

why? simply because its currently too crappy(weak compared to other armor items), and needs to be better, why else?

Edit: another great idea has been shared that I agree with, by adding grievious wounds it would achieve the desired effect, although that might make it too popular, either way it's currently too weak.

37 Comments

Starfish HOct 3, 201511 votes

Thornmail is so weak now it could probably be countered by item 1055 Late game.

Rand0mH3r0XOct 4, 20154 votes

Thornmail is so weak now, it could probably be countered by item 1006 Late game.

King OdinOct 4, 20153 votes

Thornmail is so weak now, it could probably be countered by item 2003 Late Game

maikokkOct 4, 20153 votes

Heimerdinger

ltmetalOct 3, 20154 votes

I don't think Thornmail needed a fix in the first place. Wasn't it fine where it was before with base reflection instead of armor scaling?

ChaosThiefOct 3, 20154 votes

why not just straight up buff it? 20% + 25% bonus armor.

Valhalla RisingOct 3, 20153 votes

its still crappy on rammus and malph.

yes they have increased armor, but thats only going to deal 30-40 more damage where as if it had 15% more damage return that would do up to 150-200 more damage from big auto attacks.

20/20% or 15/40% would make it decent again.

A Miss FortuneOct 3, 20152 votes

The thing I don't like about it is that it forced ADCs to buy Bloodthirster so that it wouldn't do 900+ damage to you as an ADC. Before Thornmail was gutted I remember so often I would go ADC, get fed, and have a 1-9 Jax be able to instakill me with Thornmail outputting hundreds of damage.

I don't think Thornmail will ever be healthy, either it'll be overbearing like it was before as a 2.1k gold item forcing ADCs to buy items that can cost 3.7k just so they can auto attack a Tank/Fighter without taking hundreds of extra damage (which means a LOT to a squishy ADC) because they played well and got fed. Even if you weren't fed Thornmail was an issue.

windwolf777Oct 3, 20152 votes

item 3065 says hello

A Miss FortuneOct 3, 20152 votes

Spirit Visage on an ADC? I don't see the reason to buy it over a Bloodthirster since ADCs will never make use of the Health Regen and the passive isn't that great without Lifesteal which Bloodthirster gives anyways. It would be better to just buy Banshee's. Even then ADCs can't build a defensive item until their 6th most often, or they'll just end up doing minimal damage.

windwolf777Oct 4, 20151 votes

True. But I was more thinking of it improving the lifesteal of item 3153 and item 3072 while also giving the MR. And I never said buying it INSTEAD of the LS. I merely meant that it counters item 3075 by improving the lifesteal in items they would've bought anyway and giving MR.

BluePolarizerOct 4, 20152 votes

so you're saying taht tanks have to specially itemize for ADCs yet ADCs should have zero need to specially itemize for tanks.

A Miss FortuneOct 4, 20151 votes

No, I'm just saying that Tanks shouldn't force ADCs to buy an item that's almost double Thornmail's cost just because they played well and got fed. There should be an item that counters fed ADC, but Thornmail was too much. I hear so many people say that Thornmail never could do 900 damage like I previously said, but the thing is that pre-nerfs almost every time I saw it, it was outputting anywhere from 300-900 damage alone. It's not fair that one item can guarantee anyone a kill on the fed hypercarry until they build 1-2 large items to counter that.

BluePolarizerOct 4, 20152 votes

Thornmail first is a choice (a bad one that has payoffs in certain cases) for a small subset of champions. So there's this thing called "teamwork" in high elo and pro play while the game is inherently not balanced in low elo (because then it would be unbalanced in high elo and pro play) that punish choices like thornmail first.

Also, most ADCs aren't hypercarries. Most hypercarries essentially ignore thornmail, especially Vayne and Kog.

JedenVojakOct 4, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvkA0d89,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-10-03T19:37:12.204+0000)

The thing I don't like about it is that it forced ADCs to buy Bloodthirster so that it wouldn't do 900+ damage to you as an ADC. Before Thornmail was gutted I remember so often I would go ADC, get fed, and have a 1-9 Jax be able to instakill me with Thornmail outputting hundreds of damage.

I don't think Thornmail will ever be healthy, either it'll be overbearing like it was before as a 2.1k gold item forcing ADCs to buy items that can cost 3.7k just so they can auto attack a Tank/Fighter without taking hundreds of extra damage (which means a LOT to a squishy ADC) because they played well and got fed. Even if you weren't fed Thornmail was an issue.

It's not thornmail that's unhealthy, it's marksmen.

FantasySniperOct 4, 20151 votes

Actually, you're supposed to build armor pen to counter Thornmail.

Its reflect works before resistances, so just deal more damage by countering the resistance and also healing more off of the damage you deal while getting to deal more damage with your extended life because you got to heal more off of your increased damage which makes them die faster so you take less damage.

SaiannaOct 4, 20151 votes

big auto attacks.

Like... critical strikes?

Got bad news for you, crit strikes don't count to damage returned (yet they work for life steal) So.. Well.. Nope..

youngjake93Oct 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Like... critical strikes?

Got bad news for you, crit strikes don't count to damage returned (yet they work for life steal) So.. Well.. Nope..

Yes they do...

SaiannaOct 4, 20151 votes

I remember some people going full balaistic on new Thornmail for it being weaker in every aspect to old one. Also some did mention thornmail still doesn't reflect full damage from crit strikes..

But if it does now.. Then sorry ;)

Dunkrius2gOct 4, 20153 votes

You know, why don't Riot buff back gromp. Also you gotta wait for the Marksmen Update.

NearanceOct 4, 20153 votes

I would suggest to bufff to 25% of damage and 15% of armor (switches op). summoner 31

GreymooreOct 3, 20152 votes

I like some other ideas like reflecting back the physical damage dealt instead of just the damage from basic attacks and adding grievous wounds to thornmail

Valhalla RisingOct 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Over Lord Kida,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EvkA0d89,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-10-03T22:27:24.702+0000)

I like some other ideas like reflecting back the physical damage dealt instead of just the damage from basic attacks and adding grievous wounds to thornmail

Grievious wounds would also be another good alternative compensation

rG ThundragOct 4, 20152 votes

It'd be better to just increase the armor ratio from 25% to 35%

KögâOct 4, 20152 votes

Apply grievous wounds to attacker.

TworieOct 3, 20151 votes

Thornmail hasn't been gutted, it's seriously OP af on Rammus... Like, trust me on this bruh...

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF PEEPS DO LIKE 10 DAMAGE TO YOU AS RAMMUS, YOU'RE GONNA REFLECT 300 MAGIC DAMAGE(MINUS MAGIC RESISTANCES OFC, BUT, LIKE, ADCS DON'T USUALLY HAVE THAT MUCH MAGIC RESIST) BACK TO THEM OH YEAHHHH

OHHH YEEEEAAAAHHHH!!!!!

MELT YOURSELF ON DADDY Rammus

SasogwaOct 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail hasn't been gutted, it's seriously OP af on Rammus... Like, trust me on this bruh...

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF PEEPS DO LIKE 10 DAMAGE TO YOU AS RAMMUS, YOU'RE GONNA REFLECT 300 MAGIC DAMAGE(MINUS MAGIC RESISTANCES OFC, BUT, LIKE, ADCS DON'T USUALLY HAVE THAT MUCH MAGIC RESIST) BACK TO THEM OH YEAHHHH

OHHH YEEEEAAAAHHHH!!!!!

MELT YOURSELF ON DADDY

It's good ONLY on rammus and malphite. Having a higher scaling on their damage (with possibly lower scaling on armor) would definitely open up this item for other champions.

RenailleOct 4, 20151 votes

item 3071 built every game rapes it.

Hayaishi2Oct 4, 20151 votes

It counters lifesteal well enough without being oppressive.

53872273_DELOct 4, 20151 votes

Or just remove the item all together.. Nobody will miss it.. GOT DEAD MANS PLATE!

thornmail back in season 4 was the shit..

kJsOct 4, 20151 votes

I honestly feel it should be a static 35% from basic attacks so Bruisers can still make full use of it.

1 800 MID LANEOct 4, 20151 votes

Rammus Okay.

That's him saying that he doesn't like it. Everyone else would, though, so screw Rammus.

Bondage BunnyboyOct 4, 20151 votes

I dunno, I don't really play ADC more than once in a blue moon and I generally stay away from it in ranked, but my experience with Thornmail has only made me despise the item. If you want to make tanks more effective then buff something like Sunfire. Thornmail is just really unfun to play against.

And yes, lifestealing/critting ADCs are equally horrendous, but that's something that will hopefully get addressed later this year.

Gnart Even CloseOct 5, 20151 votes

Thornmail is unhealthy because it punishes the opponent for doing well. Scaling with armor was a great idea, but now it works better against attack speed carries (i.e. Kalista) than crit carries (i.e. Draven). If they could rework it so that it dealt a DOT that scaled with bonus armor and damage taken (obviously the numbers would be different) while also applying Grievous Wounds, this item would scale better while not being quite as strong early game since some of its power would be shifted to Grievous Wounds, which are more relevant late game.

Valhalla RisingOct 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail is unhealthy because it punishes the opponent for doing well. Scaling with armor was a great idea, but now it works better against attack speed carries (i.e. Kalista) than crit carries (i.e. Draven). If they could rework it so that it dealt a DOT that scaled with bonus armor and damage taken (obviously the numbers would be different) while also applying Grievous Wounds, this item would scale better while not being quite as strong early game since some of its power would be shifted to Grievous Wounds, which are more relevant late game.

you are not wrong but I could reverse your argument and be equally justified.

you say it punishes someone for doing well, I say it provides a means of dealing with a snowball.

definitely like the idea of grievious wounds on thornmail tho.

Gnart Even CloseOct 6, 20151 votes

that's an excellent point. Riot has said they are going to take another look at Thornmail with the marksmen reworks, and one of the things they suggested to change about it was adding Grievous Wounds. it would be a significant hit to ADCs, but it would definitely be worth it imo, as Grievous Wounds doesn't lower their damage output, only their sustain and thus their dueling power.

Meep ManOct 5, 20151 votes

Or we could just reduce its cost down to something like 2100 or so and make on-hit effects and (if memory serves me right) critical strikes also count towards the reflection damage.