Am I the only one who thought nimbus cloud was a good rune?

xxxMadLionxxx·May 16, 2018·19 votes·14,416 views

A lot of ppl didn't even notice, but this rune worked well with phase rush. I did get the chance to test it on the PBE. It allowed you to get a controlled move speed buff from which procing phase rush was much easier.

PPL complained about losing ultimate hat but what a lot of ppl don't realize is that ultimate hat worked multiplicatively with CDR. At 40% CDR, ultimate hat only gave an additional 10% CDR to the ult.

Honestly, I felt nimbus cloud was way more useful for engaging and disengaging. And now its seems riot is not bringing it back.

Am I the only one who thought nimbus cloud was a good rune?

51 Comments

ModKnightsKemplarMay 16, 201821 votes

I was really excited for nimbus cloak (I super thought it was cloak, unless they changed it later) with Swain.

But I do legit feel that it fits better in the domination tree; movement speed is something pretty characteristic of assassins, so I still don't know why they put it into the sorcery tree. Those that want to combo it with phase rush could have still done so without taking ulti hat away from mages that don't want to go into dom.

PhieldworkerMay 16, 20181 votes

YES times 100. I wasn’t super excited because he can just run people down with his ult and they can take get away so easily like before.

SpecterVonBarenMay 16, 20183 votes

My thought too. I thought it looked like a fantastic rune to add to the game, I just disagree with putting it in sorcery since so many of the champs that commonly go into sorcery have ults that don't synergize with such a rune (As an example, Vel'Koz gets nothing for this rune unless he ends his ult as soon as he uses it since he has to stand still to use his ult).

lykkelasMay 17, 20181 votes

i think the idea for moving ultimate hat to D4 was to have it compete with the other hunter runes. and i think it was a good decision from a balance perspective because it's kindof ...boring to have something stack just by using your ulti. and the fact that ulti hat had 5 stacks made it a very good candidate for the hunter row.

but i do agree with you on that nimbus cloak fits better in domination. i think they should have it switch spots with taste of blood because no one is really going to be taking a sustain rune like taste of blood when you need something like overheal to make it viable, and to also have it compete 2 very valuable offensive runes.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 17, 20181 votes

I definitely see that. I think some kind of re-tooling of ulti hat would have been my preferred solution, though.

I don't know that I would have cared if ulti hat started in domination. It just feels disruptive to move it when mage players have gotten used to it. I don't see the tangible benefit to the game that justifies it.

DeathBurstMay 17, 20181 votes

Honest question here, but what Mage wants Ulti Hat but do NOT want to go into Dom? From what I can tell (but admittedly I'm not a great Mage player), it's mostly Burst Mage wanting Ulti Hat, and they fit well in Dom.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 17, 20181 votes

They fit okay with the theme of domination, but there aren't many runes there that I think are very good for them.

Cheap shot is only good if you can reliably proc, taste of blood might be okay, eyeball collection is meh. Those are the only real choices, and they are simply outdone by the inspiration tree, imo. Biscuits, magical footwear, and cosmic insight are all stronger options, imo. Add that to the fact that you're forcing them to take something less optimal in the sorc tree (manaflow, most likely), and it looks weaker to me.

It might not be a huge power difference, but it's one of those changes that's going to significantly alter the way mages do runes, and thus have significant impact on their their optimal gameplay. It feels like change for the sake of change; they could just put nimbus cloak in dom tree and minimize the impact on mages.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20181 votes

Can't you go Domination/Inspiration?

ModKnightsKemplarMay 18, 20181 votes

Yes, and that might very well happen. Again, I still think it's a net negative, since the sorcery tree was supposed to be for mages. If mages are going dom/inspiration, then what is sorcery even there for? It'll just be underused.

DeathBurstMay 18, 20181 votes

If you go back to the old discussions before Rune Reforged release, Riot was very clear that the Paths weren't targeted at specific classes, and more at playstyles.

Domination wasn't "Assassins", it was "snowballing". Which fits Assassins, but also Ganking Junglers, lane bullies and other early game champs. Sorcery wasn't "Mages", it was "spellcasting and resources manipulation". Which fits Mages, but pretty much any champ that don't use exclusively their auto-attacks.

Sorcery will still be used as a Secondary by tons of champs. As a Primary, maybe a bit less, especially with the new keystone Hail of Blades also being introduced in Domination at the same time. But saying it will be underused is in my humble opinion, a stretch.

But maybe you're right and it will actually be underused. And even then, so what? What's important is whether each champ has attractive Runes and interesting choices in the Rune system. If Mages don't use Sorcery but still have good Runes, that's not a problem.

ModKnightsKemplarMay 18, 20181 votes

Yeah, again, we're probably just going to agree to disagree on this XD

I do think dom/insp is a less attractive option for mages, and I think their class will be hurt by eliminating the tree. You're making good points, but they don't change my mind. I think mages deserve to feel good about going into the sorcery tree, and this change has a negative impact on that (in my opinion).

We'll have to see if it's underused or not. I could be 100% wrong, and if the change goes through, I hope I am.

RiotRiot RovientMay 16, 201812 votes

Hey all,

Nimbus Cloak/Ultimate Hunter are still bound for 8.11 patch and will be returning to the PBE for further testing soon.

DW DianaMay 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Rovient,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtX5N9zL,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2018-05-16T23:10:31.277+0000)

Hey all,

Nimbus Cloak/Ultimate Hunter are still bound for 8.11 patch and will be returning to the PBE for further testing soon.

That's Awesome news! Any word on Hail of Blades?

Also note I'm really dissappointed to see Bloodletter Vial is ARAM only. Any chance of that being available on the rift?

RiotRiot RovientMay 17, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lord Loki1987,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtX5N9zL,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2018-05-16T23:15:18.795+0000)

That's Awesome news! Any word on Hail of Blades?

Also note I'm really dissappointed to see Bloodletter Vial is ARAM only. Any chance of that being available on the rift?

Hail of Blades is due in 8.11 too. Working on it as we speak. :)

DW DianaMay 17, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Rovient,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EtX5N9zL,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2018-05-17T00:16:20.166+0000)

Hail of Blades is due in 8.11 too. Working on it as we speak. :)

Awesome to hear! Thanks for the response! :)

MetalGearTeemoMay 17, 20181 votes

I for one welcome our new darius and xin xhao top lane overlords.

HäxelMay 17, 20182 votes

Bloodletter Vial is a waaaay to powerful item for summoners rift, same as the others. On aram having another a spellshield for ap or a lbw/mini ekko ult on ad is not that op as you play 5v5 in one lane and already a lot of spells, poke and cc gets spamed. But for summonersrift this would be far to strong.

BattalionMay 17, 20181 votes

Hail of Blades is a mastery keystone. You may be thinking of Stormrazor.

HäxelMay 17, 20182 votes

no i was talking about the bloodletter vial the guy above asked to get not only for aram. sry i had a brainlag on the name.

DW DianaMay 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Bloodletter Vial is a waaaay to powerful item for summoners rift, same as the others. On aram having another a spellshield for ap or a lbw/mini ekko ult on ad is not that op as you play 5v5 in one lane and already a lot of spells, poke and cc gets spamed. But for summonersrift this would be far to strong.

I don't think so actually. It's like an AP steraks except less powerful. Very few AP champions will see use in it, but will make those that do become a bit more tanky, like most AD assassins do with BC, and AD divers do with Steraks/Titanic/Triforce etc.

Remember it has a 30 second CD on it making it crap for any/most mages

HäxelMay 17, 20181 votes

are you kidding? A penetrationitem that gives you a free spellshield just by hitting a spell is not powerful? Penetration alone is already powerful. Morrellos just seem to be not always good if people think they cana rgue that you not always need the grivious wounds. Which is kinda a lame answer adn doesn't justitfy to not buy morellso on soem champs. Banshees also would see far more use if the buildpath would be better jsut cause the spellshield effect is so strong. Edge of night was alos op when the spellshield had no real cd and alsted realy long. So not only do you havve an easy to asscesable ok buildpath spellshielditem, you also get penetration vs squishys. There is a reason the mode development team invented this item and not the balance team for sr. There are obvious reasons too why the balance team does probably think rightful to not try to bring these items to sr too. In the current ap itemization this item would be purchased by everyone.

DW DianaMay 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

are you kidding? A penetrationitem that gives you a free spellshield just by hitting a spell is not powerful? Penetration alone is already powerful. Morrellos just seem to be not always good if people think they cana rgue that you not always need the grivious wounds. Which is kinda a lame answer adn doesn't justitfy to not buy morellso on soem champs.

I'm not saying it's not a good item (why would I want it otherwise) but it gives the same penetration as morrelos (and they don't stack), the spell shield is on a 30 second CD and lasts 3 seconds, the AP is only 75 while the hp is up to 350.

Banshees also would see far more use if the buildpath would be better jsut cause the spellshield effect is so strong. Edge of night was alos op when the spellshield had no real cd and alsted realy long.

Banshees is a great item against AP champions, but bloodletter would be good against everyone if used right.

So not only do you havve an easy to asscesable ok buildpath spellshielditem, you also get penetration vs squishys. There is a reason the mode development team invented this item and not the balance team for sr. There are obvious reasons too why the balance team does probably think rightful to not try to bring these items to sr too. In the current ap itemization this item would be purchased by everyone.

Yes it is kinda perfect for her isn't it. You know how you see everyone with a kinda core buildpath. Diana doesn't have one. Why? Because EVERYTHING AP is a situational item on her. There is nothing that is good enough on her that she HAS to rush it first. This could be that item.

HäxelMay 18, 20181 votes

no matter if i agree or disagree with diana, one champion doesn't justify an item that could destroy the whole balance on every other midalenr and with that the balance in leauge. Don't take it lightly. At elast riot already admitted that there are no plans currently to bring any of these items permanent into sr (or even let them stay permanent in aram, they just get to eb tested during bilgewater event).

LankPantsMay 16, 201812 votes

Great, can you change the caption on Sorcery from 'Unleash Destruction' to 'Run Really Fast' while you're at it?

There's far too many runes in this tree that increase MS already, another is completely unneeded. With this rune it's entirely possible to just take effects that boost MS for the whole tree, does that seem like what Sorcery should be about to anyone?

RiotRiot RovientMay 17, 20189 votes

{quoted}

Great, can you change the caption on Sorcery from 'Unleash Destruction' to 'Run Really Fast' while you're at it?

There's far too many runes in this tree that increase MS already, another is completely unneeded. With this rune it's entirely possible to just take effects that boost MS for the whole tree, does that seem like what Sorcery should be about to anyone?

You don't have to take them all if you don't want, but if you can make it work, more power to you!

Teridax68May 17, 201810 votes

This does not even begin to address the argument. The point LankPants made is that there are too many runes in Sorcery that focus on additional movement speed, which is a thematic mismatch with the intended purpose of the tree, and which crowds out space that could have been given to actual spell-focused effects. With the removal of Ultimate Hat and the addition of yet another movement speed rune, this problem will only worsen, as there will soon be 4 runes out of 12 in the tree, including one keystone, that focus on granting movespeed. Do you not see a problem with one-third of a spell-oriented tree being all about moving quicker?

I get that it must be exciting as a designer to implement the option to go into Sorcery and stack nothing but movement-based runes, but that is simply not what players in general want or expect with the tree. Considering how disappointing Sorcery has been overall, it is sad to see it taken in what is largely being regarded as exactly the wrong direction. Why not simply move these movement-based effects to Domination, and give Sorcery some of its more caster-oriented effects instead? There are several Domination runes that could be a good fit to Sorcery, namely Ingenious Hunter, Cheap Shot, Electrocute, pretty much all of the Tracking/ward-based runes, and obviously Ultimate Hunter once it gets added.

In general, it feels like Domination got a lot of the cool effects that Sorcery could've used, and I think switching at least some of these options around would establish a clearer difference between the trees, as both currently offer different ways of dealing more damage and moving faster within each tree. Would it not make more sense to have Domination focus on offering different ways of enhancing one's movement, and have Sorcery augment one's casting?

VartiusMay 17, 20183 votes

Just take goddamn Domination then. If you want burst - you go domination. Dom isn't an assassin only tree - it's a "Burst tree" while Sorcery is directed towards granding you ways to unleash your already built in burst or to shift your burst only gameplay into something else. There are a bunch of mages who struggle to really lay out their burst because they can't catch up to their enemies. That's a good tree for them! There are other, who deal in a lot of dots and sustained damage... Aery is there to cover that! You cal also take absolute focus and scorch. Bam. You got a poker tree. "Unleash destruction" doesn't mean "burst". It means adding ways for said destruction to be unleashed.

Teridax68May 17, 20184 votes

{quoted}

"Unleash destruction" doesn't mean "burst". It means adding ways for said destruction to be unleashed.

"Unleash destruction" does not mean "move really fast" either, and it's pretty clear that Sorcery was intended to be the mage tree, while Domination was designed as the assassin tree. Neither tree may be exclusively designed for one or the other, but those are the classes they are primarily intended to cater to. If Sorcery is intended to be the spell-based tree, yet I have to go to Domination to enhance my spell-based damage, then there has been a failure in organizing and labeling those trees. If a mage really struggles with mobility (who, exactly?), it would make sense to take Domination as a secondary tree to cover those weaknesses, rather than to turn Sorcery into a movespeed rune set.

VartiusMay 17, 20182 votes

Why would assassins want to move fast though? Like really. Most have ample ways to go in and out of fights (May it be for the better or for worse). Aside from that:

Who gives a shit what were the trees supposedly designed for? What matters is what they do - in Domination you have burst, in Resolve you have tankyness, in Inspiration you have some random shit lol, in sorcery you have: Mobility, Poking tools, other things useful in mid lane (Nullyfying orb against other mages). A lot of mages use electrocute already: Ahri, Anivia, Syndra and Lissandra are just some examples. Most of AP assassins use the dom tree as well: LeBlanc, Fizz, Akali, etc. Why wouldn't they go Domination? Because it's "the assassin tree"? Bullshit. They take what works. And Domination works for Burst Mages and AP assassins. Sorcery, on the other hand, works for mages who deal more in pokes. Ziggs, Vel'koz and Xerath for example use Arcane Comet. Why? Because they poke enemies from afar using their abilities, but said spells have enough cooldown for them not to use aery. Aery is for mages like Karthus or Orianna, who are either encouraged to do basic attack or have a CD low enough on an easy to hit spell. Mordekaiser uses Aery, but he is switching to Phase now that it got buffed. Malzahar uses Aery because he has tons of dots and other abilities that make aery attack each time it's ready. And for those mages Aery will do a ton of damage over the course of the game.
Mages who want to move quick? Aurelion Sol and Cassiopeia are good examples. I can see Viktor using Nimbus Cloak with the way his ulti works. Also he was already taking Fleet Footwork, so that's that. Mordekaiser will most likely take the entire movement speed route. I don't play that many mages so I don't know.
They aren't turning sorcery into a movement speed set. Yes. A lot of runes give movement speed in that tree... So? It doesn't mean they are turning it into a mov speed tree. They are making it possible for mages who WANT movement speed to make a tree for that purpose. Meanwhile the other mages who want to use sorcery (poke and sustained damage dealers) still have what they need.

Ultimate hat by all means belonged far better in domination. Dom is for bursts. Ultis are usually a big part of bursts. Making the window between those bursts shorter IS the way to go for a tree that caters to burst. Meanwhile if you look at sorcery NOTHING there made sense with ulti cooldown lowered. Aery and Comet are used by poke mages and don't really interact overly well with most ultimates. You have 10% cooldown on all spells instead. It also makes sense. If you are a poke mage or sustained damage dealer you will want to make the window between individual spells shorter. If you want to burst opponents... you don't need cooldown on all spells to be lower. You will most likely use a spell once in a combo.

DW DianaMay 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why would assassins want to move fast though? Like really. Most have ample ways to go in and out of fights (May it be for the better or for worse). Aside from that:

Who gives a shit what were the trees supposedly designed for? What matters is what they do - in Domination you have burst, in Resolve you have tankyness, in Inspiration you have some random shit lol, in sorcery you have: Mobility, Poking tools, other things useful in mid lane (Nullyfying orb against other mages). A lot of mages use electrocute already: Ahri, Anivia, Syndra and Lissandra are just some examples. Most of AP assassins use the dom tree as well: LeBlanc, Fizz, Akali, etc. Why wouldn't they go Domination? Because it's "the assassin tree"? Bullshit. They take what works. And Domination works for Burst Mages and AP assassins. Sorcery, on the other hand, works for mages who deal more in pokes. Ziggs, Vel'koz and Xerath for example use Arcane Comet. Why? Because they poke enemies from afar using their abilities, but said spells have enough cooldown for them not to use aery. Aery is for mages like Karthus or Orianna, who are either encouraged to do basic attack or have a CD low enough on an easy to hit spell. Mordekaiser uses Aery, but he is switching to Phase now that it got buffed. Malzahar uses Aery because he has tons of dots and other abilities that make aery attack each time it's ready. And for those mages Aery will do a ton of damage over the course of the game.

Mages who want to move quick? Aurelion Sol and Cassiopeia are good examples. I can see Viktor using Nimbus Cloak with the way his ulti works. Also he was already taking Fleet Footwork, so that's that. Mordekaiser will most likely take the entire movement speed route. I don't play that many mages so I don't know.

They aren't turning sorcery into a movement speed set. Yes. A lot of runes give movement speed in that tree... So? It doesn't mean they are turning it into a mov speed tree. They are making it possible for mages who WANT movement speed to make a tree for that purpose. Meanwhile the other mages who want to use sorcery (poke and sustained damage dealers) still have what they need.

Ultimate hat by all means belonged far better in domination. Dom is for bursts. Ultis are usually a big part of bursts. Making the window between those bursts shorter IS the way to go for a tree that caters to burst. Meanwhile if you look at sorcery NOTHING there made sense with ulti cooldown lowered. Aery and Comet are used by poke mages and don't really interact overly well with most ultimates. You have 10% cooldown on all spells instead. It also makes sense. If you are a poke mage or sustained damage dealer you will want to make the window between individual spells shorter. If you want to burst opponents... you don't need cooldown on all spells to be lower. You will most likely use a spell once in a combo.

Diana will benefit a lot from things like Hail of Blades and Nimbus cloak. Her passive adds a lot to her damage but often the enemy has escaped by the time she can make that final hit. Hail of Blades will give her the attack speed needed to get this off after her ult, and if they flash away nimbus cloak will get her close enough for her e to pull them back in (rather then having to ult a second time just to hit that final passive).

Malzahar could also see great benefit from Nimbus Cloak as his old ability to Q after his ult was ruined but the reduction in e duration, but with nimbus cloak he'll be able to have a mini ghost effect to get him close enough to do this again (One of the changes they have made is to have nimbus cloak take effect a "short time after you ult" meaning that if you channel your ult like Malz it doesn't proc until after the ult is finished!)

Teridax68May 17, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why would assassins want to move fast though? Like really. Most have ample ways to go in and out of fights (May it be for the better or for worse).

Have you considered the fact that these assassins are given mobility in their kits precisely because that is one of the features they synergize the hardest? Would that not relate in any way to the reason why AD assassins are given Youmuu's Ghostblade, a movespeed-focused item, as part of their core? Just a thought.

{quoted}

Aside from that:

Who gives a shit what were the trees supposedly designed for?

Have you even read this thread, the Boards, or just any discussion space on League's design? Are you seriously completely unaware of the many players complaining about Sorcery and the direction it's been set in?

{quoted}

What matters is what they do - in Domination you have burst, in Resolve you have tankyness, in Inspiration you have some random shit lol, in sorcery you have: Mobility, Poking tools, other things useful in mid lane (Nullyfying orb against other mages).

It is interesting that you yourself listed Sorcery as essentially a garbage pile for completely unrelated effects, when every other tree, by your own description, each has a very specific goal and class in mind. Do you not see how your own argument disproves your point?

{quoted}

A lot of mages use electrocute already: Ahri, Anivia, Syndra and Lissandra are just some examples. Most of AP assassins use the dom tree as well: LeBlanc, Fizz, Akali, etc.

The very fact that so many mages go primarily for Domination, when Sorcery is meant to be a spell-focused tree (and that in itself need not be mage-specific), itself demonstrates a thematic mismatch. If Sorcery did such a good job of enhancing one's casting, why would the game's most dedicated casters have to go for another tree entirely just to boost their spell power?

{quoted}

Why wouldn't they go Domination? Because it's "the assassin tree"? Bullshit. They take what works. And Domination works for Burst Mages and AP assassins.

"They take what works" is precisely the reason to change both Sorcery and Domination. If "what works" isn't ideal, then there is room for improvement, as detailed here already. Moreover, you completely fail to see the point here: if a champion wants to go for Domination, even if they're not an assassin, that's fine. What's not fine is when they do so for reasons that are meant to be core to another tree. Therefore, when people go into the caster tree because they want to move faster, and go into the assassin tree because they want to augment their casting, something's wrong with the way those trees have been designed.

{quoted}

Ziggs, Vel'koz and Xerath for example use Arcane Comet. Why? Because they poke enemies from afar using their abilities, but said spells have enough cooldown for them not to use aery. Aery is for mages like Karthus or Orianna, who are either encouraged to do basic attack or have a CD low enough on an easy to hit spell. Mordekaiser uses Aery, but he is switching to Phase now that it got buffed. Malzahar uses Aery because he has tons of dots and other abilities that make aery attack each time it's ready. And for those mages Aery will do a ton of damage over the course of the game.

And this is relevant to the argument... how, exactly? Are you saying the totality of mages are artillery mages and Mordekaiser? Does nobody else matter to you?

{quoted}

Mages who want to move quick? Aurelion Sol and Cassiopeia are good examples. I can see Viktor using Nimbus Cloak with the way his ulti works. Also he was already taking Fleet Footwork, so that's that. Mordekaiser will most likely take the entire movement speed route. I don't play that many mages so I don't know.

Yes, let's design a massive portion of a whole rune tree for just four champions. Splendid idea. Meanwhile, those champions would be perfectly fine if those options were in Domination, whereas many more champions suffer with the removal of Ultimate Hat, one of the most caster-centric runes around, from Sorcery.

{quoted}

They aren't turning sorcery into a movement speed set. Yes. A lot of runes give movement speed in that tree... So? It doesn't mean they are turning it into a mov speed tree.

Literally one-third of that entire tree focuses on movement speed. It is the movement speed tree, as literally no other tree provides nearly as much movement speed, not even Domination. Why is Sorcery the best fit for this, exactly? Why not Domination?

{quoted}

They are making it possible for mages who WANT movement speed to make a tree for that purpose. Meanwhile the other mages who want to use sorcery (poke and sustained damage dealers) still have what they need.

Any champion who wants movement speed, and not just mages, would be just as fine, if not better, picking it from Domination. Meanwhile, a ton of mages are still underserved by Sorcery, and the one rune that was attractive to mages in general is now being given to a tree that already has a ton of great bonuses. What exactly is your own rationale for designing Sorcery here? How exactly does it fit into the bigger picture?

{quoted}

Ultimate hat by all means belonged far better in domination. Dom is for bursts. Ultis are usually a big part of bursts. Making the window between those bursts shorter IS the way to go for a tree that caters to burst.

By that logic, literally any ability is part of burst, so Domination should be the caster-focused tree. That could be fine, but then you might as well call it Sorcery, and have Domination be the tree full of movespeed effects. It feels like you're getting the purpose of Domination and Sorcery confused, as apparently has whichever Rioter in charge of removing Ultimate Hat from Sorcery.

{quoted}

Meanwhile if you look at sorcery NOTHING there made sense with ulti cooldown lowered. Aery and Comet are used by poke mages and don't really interact overly well with most ultimates.

The very fact that Aery and Comet don't synergize with other caster-oriented effects is part of the core problem with Sorcery. Its keystones are notorious for being among the worst out of all the rune trees, and its only saving grace was that some of its lesser runes worked well on casters. Ultimate Hat was the best example of this, as it was legitimately useful on most casters, so to see it removed simply has the entire tree become less interesting and consistent overall.

{quoted}

You have 10% cooldown on all spells instead. It also makes sense. If you are a poke mage or sustained damage dealer you will want to make the window between individual spells shorter.

If you are literally any kind of caster, you will want to make the window between individual spells shorter. Why do you think CDR only works for poke and battle mages?

{quoted}

If you want to burst opponents... you don't need cooldown on all spells to be lower. You will most likely use a spell once in a combo.

Which is why assassins don't try to build CDR at all, let alone max it out or have it in their dedicated items... oh wait.

But no, bursty champions do want lower cooldowns on spells, because burst champions have been balanced over time around dealing less burst, and casting faster. This is why we have experienced such a degree of CDR inflation on items. CDR is therefore incredibly powerful on any kind of caster, no matter how bursty, because it gives them faster windows of damage and recovery, which can make all the difference in fights. Where exactly were you getting a different impression? What you're saying almost sounds nice on paper, but falls apart with even a modicum of practice.

VartiusMay 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Have you even read this thread, the Boards, or just any discussion space on League's design? Are you seriously completely unaware of the many players complaining about Sorcery and the direction it's been set in?

I still find that ridiculus. WHY does it matter? People don't like the direction sorcery is going... but it was that way since the beggining. If instead of complaining they noticed: Hey! Domination actually works better for bursters of any kind (and not just assassins) we would have a whole less trouble. Do you suggest that we should have two trees that deal in burst? Two trees that deal in augumentation of combo-damage? Why would we need that? Instead we have a tree that deals in burst and a tree that deals in poke.

It is interesting that you yourself listed Sorcery as essentially a garbage pile for completely unrelated effects, when every other tree, by your own description, each has a very specific goal and class in mind. Do you not see how your own argument disproves your point?

Because I tootally didn't only vaguely describe the rest of the trees, while going more indepth with sorcery. Domination isn't THE burst tree either, since it has a lot of unrelated shit - the wards, the eye collection, the movement outside of combat, etc. Me calling Domination - The burst tree would be equal to calling sorcery the poke tree or the sustained damage tree. It's just not the whole story. I simplefied it. That's it.

The very fact that so many mages go primarily for Domination, when Sorcery is meant to be a spell-focused tree (and that in itself need not be mage-specific), itself demonstrates a thematic mismatch. If Sorcery did such a good job of enhancing one's casting, why would the game's most dedicated casters have to go for another tree entirely just to boost their spell power?

And since when suddenly is domination a non-spell-focused tree? As far as I know most assassins, AP or AD, are CASTERS! They have some damage on their autos, but most of the burst comes from spells. (The rest of the question is pretty similar to the one below)

"They take what works" is precisely the reason to change both Sorcery and Domination. If "what works" isn't ideal, then there is room for improvement, as detailed here already. Moreover, you completely fail to see the point here: if a champion wants to go for Domination, even if they're not an assassin, that's fine. What's not fine is when they do so for reasons that are meant to be core to another tree. Therefore, when people go into the caster tree because they want to move faster, and go into the assassin tree because they want to augment their casting, something's wrong with the way those trees have been designed.

Once again - Both Domination and Sorcery are augumenting casting. They do it by different means, however. Domination does it by giving you burst damage (Once again - simplified - it does it by other things as well), while Sorcery is augumenting casting by giving you more poke damage and allowing you to keep poking/hit your spells in general.

And this is relevant to the argument... how, exactly? Are you saying the totality of mages are artillery mages and Mordekaiser? Does nobody else matter to you?

No, I was giving some examples of mages who sorcery tree is actually designed to. Also EXAPLES. That's not all the mages who use this stuff - I don't play ALL mages so I don't know what works for all of them.

Yes, let's design a massive portion of a whole rune tree for just four champions. Splendid idea. Meanwhile, those champions would be perfectly fine if those options were in Domination, whereas many more champions suffer with the removal of Ultimate Hat, one of the most caster-centric runes around, from Sorcery.

First thing... again... EXAMPLES. I wasn't presenting the totality of it. Also again... Why would those options be in domination? The mentioned champions, if you notice, aren't really burst oriented. They have some burst, because nowadays everyone has some burst, but it's not their FOCUS. The mov. speed speed route seems perfect for the tree not focused on burst, but towards other caster-related issues.

Literally one-third of that entire tree focuses on movement speed. It is the movement speed tree, as literally no other tree provides nearly as much movement speed, not even Domination. Why is Sorcery the best fit for this, exactly? Why not Domination?

It has a single speed route. The rest of the runes aren't connected to speed. It's not THE MOV SPEED TREE since it's not all mov speed. It's the most mov speed tree out of all, but it still doesn't mean it's the only focus. As for the latter - I already said it above. Mov Speed wouldn't fit with domination, because mov speed isn't burst-related in any way, shape or form... It is however related to non-burst casting, which as I said many times over, is the focus of Sorcery tree.

Any champion who wants movement speed, and not just mages, would be just as fine, if not better, picking it from Domination. Meanwhile, a ton of mages are still underserved by Sorcery, and the one rune that was attractive to mages in general is now being given to a tree that already has a ton of great bonuses. What exactly is your own rationale for designing Sorcery here? How exactly does it fit into the bigger picture?

They are literally taking a rune that didn't fit well with sorcery and giving it to domination... Where it fits. Thereby making it EVEN MORE more attractive for burst mages, who should take dom tree in the first place! Again! It's not the assassin tree... it's the caster-burst tree. Meanwhile sorcery is caster-sustained tree.

By that logic, literally any ability is part of burst, so Domination should be the caster-focused tree. That could be fine, but then you might as well call it Sorcery, and have Domination be the tree full of movespeed effects. It feels like you're getting the purpose of Domination and Sorcery confused, as apparently has whichever Rioter in charge of removing Ultimate Hat from Sorcery.

Yes! Domination IS A CASTER TREE. Sorcery is also a caster tree. Both just focus on a different part of casting.

The very fact that Aery and Comet don't synergize with other caster-oriented effects is part of the core problem with Sorcery. Its keystones are notorious for being among the worst out of all the rune trees, and its only saving grace was that some of its lesser runes worked well on casters. Ultimate Hat was the best example of this, as it was legitimately useful on most casters, so to see it removed simply has the entire tree become less interesting and consistent overall.

How is it becoming less consistent, if I just said it had the worst synergy with the rest of the tree? If anything the removal makes it MORE consistent in it's goal. Also I worded it wrong: They don't interact BADLY with ultimates... They just interact with ultis as well as with other spells, as opposed to better than with other spells - so the difference between CDR on ult and CDR on all abilities. And even if there are ultis they in fact interact badly with... Ulti is not the whole kit. And how are the runes interacting bad with casting in general? I say they interact pretty great. Just now with the burst-casting... which makes sense, since it's not the focus.

If you are literally any kind of caster, you will want to make the window between individual spells shorter. Why do you think CDR only works for poke and battle mages?

Yeah, sure. Everyone wants CDR if they casts spells... I am talking who's the most effective with it. Burst mages will benefit more from more damage rather than CDR - it will be more efficent for them.

Which is why assassins don't try to build CDR at all, let alone max it out or have it in their dedicated items... oh wait.

But no, bursty champions do want lower cooldowns on spells, because burst champions have been balanced over time around dealing less burst, and casting faster. This is why we have experienced such a degree of CDR inflation on items. CDR is therefore incredibly powerful on any kind of caster, no matter how bursty, because it gives them faster windows of damage and recovery, which can make all the difference in fights. Where exactly were you getting a different impression? What you're saying almost sounds nice on paper, but falls apart with even a modicum of practice.

Oh sure, I must admitt... That part I am not exacly right on... But I also think inflating everything with CDR was a bad idea in the first place. Burst mages SHOULD have insane bursts but high cooldowns... after all, that's what they are there for. Why should you reduce burst but reduce cooldown between spells if that's what ADCs are there for? If that's what sustained-damage casters are there for? Burst mages should be able to kill someone in a burst and an ADC shouldn't be able to burst in the first place. If you notice: that was the time most people look most fondly at. And if you look at it that way... Yeah. Making Domination tree the: More Burst, Less CDR tree, while Sorcery the: Less burst, more CDR tree is a step in the right direction. Ultimate hat while it is a CDR rune is also different in what it aims to provide the player. It aims to give him a bit shorter windows between bursts... a bit because it's supposed to make it go from like 60 to 50 sec. Or whatever. I don't care enough to do math now.

Teridax68May 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I still find that ridiculus. WHY does it matter? People don't like the direction sorcery is going... but it was that way since the beggining. If instead of complaining they noticed: Hey! Domination actually works better for bursters of any kind (and not just assassins) we would have a whole less trouble.

This too misses the point entirely. Players have complained about Sorcery since the very beginning, because Sorcery never really offered great options for mages (and Domination isn't a perfect fit either). What players hoped was for Sorcery to get updated in favor of more caster-oriented runes, so it is all the more disappointing to see more movement options get used instead. This is not too dissimilar a situation from fighters not that long ago, where the lack of Conqueror meant many were stuck with stuff like Meteor as their best option.

{quoted}

Do you suggest that we should have two trees that deal in burst? Two trees that deal in augumentation of combo-damage? Why would we need that? Instead we have a tree that deals in burst and a tree that deals in poke.

Had you read what I had suggested properly, you would have found that I wanted Sorcery to be the caster-focused tree, which would likely include burst, and Domination to be the mobility-focused tree. Both trees would have a clear purpose, as opposed to the current state where both trees have a mix of burst and mobility runes. If you really want more clarity to the rune trees, you should be pushing for what I'm suggesting, particularly since you yourself implicitly mentioned that Sorcery was a thematic mess.

{quoted}

Because I tootally didn't only vaguely describe the rest of the trees, while going more indepth with sorcery.

And why do that, exactly? Every other tree can be resumed in a short sentence, yet your more elaborate description of Sorcery really is the tree in a nutshell, as it's full of disparate and thematically disconnected effects. It's too late for you to backtrack now.

{quoted}

Domination isn't THE burst tree either, since it has a lot of unrelated shit - the wards, the eye collection, the movement outside of combat, etc. Me calling Domination - The burst tree would be equal to calling sorcery the poke tree or the sustained damage tree. It's just not the whole story. I simplefied it. That's it.

This is interesting, because just one paragraph above you were already trying to rely on said simplification as your core argument. So what is the truth?

{quoted}

And since when suddenly is domination a non-spell-focused tree? As far as I know most assassins, AP or AD, are CASTERS! They have some damage on their autos, but most of the burst comes from spells. (The rest of the question is pretty similar to the one below)

Which, yet again, highlights the confusion between Domination and Sorcery, since both are oriented towards caster champions. Sure, assassins are bursty casters, but that simply means that they should be going to Sorcery, a tree whose very name indicates a focus on casting, to augment said aspect of their playstyle. Meanwhile, mages are casters, but they are not typically mobile, so by your own rationale here, mobility is simply not a good thematic fit for their tree.

{quoted}

Once again - Both Domination and Sorcery are augumenting casting. They do it by different means, however. Domination does it by giving you burst damage (Once again - simplified - it does it by other things as well), while Sorcery is augumenting casting by giving you more poke damage and allowing you to keep poking/hit your spells in general.

Phase Rush is not a poke rune, Aery is designed for supports, rather than poke mages, the entire Power section provides raw power that is not exclusive to poke, and Cheap Shot lends itself to poke combos. Once again, trying to create clear thematic separation between the two trees currently fails, because both trees have a huge overlap in many of the effects they provide.

{quoted}

No, I was giving some examples of mages who sorcery tree is actually designed to. Also EXAPLES. That's not all the mages who use this stuff - I don't play ALL mages so I don't know what works for all of them.

You do not seem to understand that mentioning a few select examples of champions who go into Sorcery does not mean the tree has no problems, or does not underserve many more champions. Your argument is thereby entirely irrelevant to your point.

{quoted}

First thing... again... EXAMPLES. I wasn't presenting the totality of it.

Yet these are the only examples you have relied upon thus far, and "mages who need mobility" isn't exactly a major subclass in League's roster. Once again, even beyond just those four examples, you are making a rather poor argument by advocating for a caster tree to devote a huge amount of space to augmenting the mobility of a handful of mages, when Domination could be doing that job just as well, if not better.

{quoted}

Also again... Why would those options be in domination? The mentioned champions, if you notice, aren't really burst oriented. They have some burst, because nowadays everyone has some burst, but it's not their FOCUS. The mov. speed speed route seems perfect for the tree not focused on burst, but towards other caster-related issues.

Because as I already explained, Domination is a tree that isn't simply about burst, but about assassination, and the latter involves mobility. If you want to talk about Mordekaiser, for example, Predator is a great keystone on him, and giving him more mobility options farther down the tree would work really well for him. The same could apply to many of the other mages you mentioned, as well as non-mages opting into the tree for mobility. Why so much attachment to having Domination being the burst tree? Clearly, it's part of what's causing some thematic confusion here.

{quoted}

It has a single speed route. The rest of the runes aren't connected to speed. It's not THE MOV SPEED TREE since it's not all mov speed. It's the most mov speed tree out of all, but it still doesn't mean it's the only focus.

By that logic, no tree has any clear goal, because there's one rune out there that achieves something different. It is as arbitrary as it is inane to claim that a tree needs to offer nothing but a certain mechanic in order to have it at its theme, and all of this is a transparent attempt to dodge the fact that Sorcery clearly offers far more movement speed than any other tree. Sorcery is the movespeed tree, whether you like it or not, because it is the best tree to go for right now if one wants mobility. This is the core of the matter, as it simply makes no sense to go into a tree ostensibly designed for mages, only to pick a set of bonuses that the near-totality of mages strictly do not possess or need.

Teridax68May 18, 20181 votes

{quoted}

As for the latter - I already said it above. Mov Speed wouldn't fit with domination, because mov speed isn't burst-related in any way, shape or form... It is however related to non-burst casting, which as I said many times over, is the focus of Sorcery tree.

So you don't want movement speed in Domination, because you personally want Domination to be a tree exclusively focused on burst, despite the fact that it already offers movement speed options (Predator, Relentless Hunter), and is primarily geared towards assassins, who are mobile and who make good use of mobility. Do you not see how your own personal preference has no relevance to the larger argument here? Also, how exactly is movement speed related to "non-burst casting"?

{quoted}

They are literally taking a rune that didn't fit well with sorcery and giving it to domination... Where it fits. Thereby making it EVEN MORE more attractive for burst mages, who should take dom tree in the first place! Again! It's not the assassin tree... it's the caster-burst tree. Meanwhile sorcery is caster-sustained tree.

Except, as you should have been able to see at this point from the feedback of many, many more players, Ultimate Hat is widely considered to be the best fit for Sorcery, as it is one of the very few runes that purely aims to augment one's casting. How exactly is it not a good fit for the tree, and how is it a good fit for Domination? At this point, it's becoming pretty clear that the issue isn't just that certain runes fit better in Sorcery or Domination, but that your own personal preferences regarding both trees are entirely warping your perception of the argument, despite the fact that your own ideas regarding both trees are clearly not universal, or even majoritary.

{quoted}

Yes! Domination IS A CASTER TREE. Sorcery is also a caster tree. Both just focus on a different part of casting.

Says who? Again, at this point most of your own rationale comes from you making up different purposes for these trees, irrespective of context or consistency. Do you not see how having two caster-centric trees, both of which augment casting, would be confusing? Why do we need to have this spread when we could just as easily have one spell-focused tree and one mobility-oriented tree by switching just a few runes around?

{quoted}

How is it becoming less consistent, if I just said it had the worst synergy with the rest of the tree? If anything the removal makes it MORE consistent in it's goal.

It is bizarre that you would ask these kinds of questions when the answer is literally in the quote you are replying to. Did you actually read my quote? My point was that Sorcery is notorious for having keystones that are ill-fitting to most mages, and that this has been a problem since the beginning of the system, yet runes like Ultimate Hat were the exact opposite, and were considered ideal for any caster. Therefore, its removal makes the tree as a whole less consistent. Also, how exactly is Nimbus Cloak a good fit for the Sorcery, then? You mentioned how ult-related effects were most fitting for assassins, and one can easily point out how the movement speed bonus would be perfect on champions like Zed, Talon, Kha'Zix, Fizz, and so on. Which mages exactly does this rune cater towards?

{quoted}

Also I worded it wrong: They don't interact BADLY with ultimates... They just interact with ultis as well as with other spells, as opposed to better than with other spells - so the difference between CDR on ult and CDR on all abilities. And even if there are ultis they in fact interact badly with... Ulti is not the whole kit.

So you basically just disproved your own point on Sorcery keystones synergizing poorly with ultimates. Good to know.

{quoted}

And how are the runes interacting bad with casting in general? I say they interact pretty great. Just now with the burst-casting... which makes sense, since it's not the focus.

You once again proved my own point without me having to add much more. The very fact that it doesn't accommodate burst casting, including comboes that are central to the playstyle of many mages, is already not good, and your own yearning for Domination to be the burst-casting tree does not contradict this. Neither Comet nor Aery are a particularly good fit for most mages, and we're still in an environment where there isn't really a keystone for battle mages. There does happen to be a good keystone for burst mages, but that keystone's in Domination: it's now called Electrocute, but not all that long ago it was called Thunderlord's Decree in the old system, and was hugely popular among casters of all kinds, including mages.

{quoted}

Yeah, sure. Everyone wants CDR if they casts spells... I am talking who's the most effective with it. Burst mages will benefit more from more damage rather than CDR - it will be more efficent for them.

This is rather different from your previous argument, where you said that burst champions did not want or need CDR at all. Not only is this new version of the argument utterly weak, as it does nothing to explain why CDR, a caster-centric stat, wouldn't be appropriate for a caster-centric tree, but it still isn't even really true, as CDR has always been desirable on burst mages, even when it was more difficult to obtain. Raw damage only goes so far, and CDR acts as a very large multiplier to one's casting power, which is why it will always be desirable even on the burstiest of champions.

{quoted}

Oh sure, I must admitt... That part I am not exacly right on... But I also think inflating everything with CDR was a bad idea in the first place.

I fully agree with this, but that does not detract from the fact that CDR is pretty much a universally desirable stat. It is therefore not an especially poor fit for any class, even marksmen.

{quoted}

Burst mages SHOULD have insane bursts but high cooldowns... after all, that's what they are there for. Why should you reduce burst but reduce cooldown between spells if that's what ADCs are there for? If that's what sustained-damage casters are there for?

I am not the person to ask this, as it was Riot's decision to tone down the burst of mages and assassins, and inflate their items with CDR instead, not mine. I agree that burst champions should be equipped to actually burst down opponents, rather than awkwardly output some mix of burst and DPS, but short of removing CDR entirely, burst champions will always go for that stat in this current environment.

{quoted}

Burst mages should be able to kill someone in a burst and an ADC shouldn't be able to burst in the first place. If you notice: that was the time most people look most fondly at.

I wholeheartedly agree, and this is one of the reasons why I think Runes Reforged, and the rune/mastery system in general, isn't good for League, precisely because it tends to homogenize champions and cause some to do things they're really not supposed to be doing. However, if we're going to have these systems in place, we might as well at least try to have them fit their intended classes better.

{quoted}

And if you look at it that way... Yeah. Making Domination tree the: More Burst, Less CDR tree, while Sorcery the: Less burst, more CDR tree is a step in the right direction. Ultimate hat while it is a CDR rune is also different in what it aims to provide the player. It aims to give him a bit shorter windows between bursts... a bit because it's supposed to make it go from like 60 to 50 sec. Or whatever. I don't care enough to do math now.

"Shorter windows between bursts" is precisely what CDR aims to do regardless of what it applies to, whether it's on ultimates or basic abilities. By your own rationale, then, it is a better fit on Sorcery than on Domination. If the intent is for burst champions to have noticeable downtimes, and if you want Domination to be the burst champion tree, then I don't see why you would advocate to include a rune that specifically aims to reduce a champion's downtimes.

Nanuk PihoqahiakMay 17, 20186 votes

The most passive aggressive comment I've seen in awhile lol.

Teridax68May 17, 20182 votes

Stay hungry; stay humble, y'all!

BattalionMay 17, 20181 votes

I haven't seen a date range for when 8.11 will drop, could you give some sort of range?

NyarlathοtepMay 16, 20185 votes

My personal problem with the rune was not that it gave movement speed after ulti. It was that in sorcery tree (the one that is supposed to manipulate resources and empower abilities) there are already movement speed runes. Celerity, phase run and waterwalking. We dont need more movement speed. It feels lazy.

While are also talking about you made it sound like they discarded nimbus. So whats going to take the place of ultimate hat?

PaffWasTakenMay 16, 20183 votes

The problem isn't if nimbus cloud is good or not: it's the fact that it's yet another rune that has nothing to do with sorcery thats being forced down into it. Nobody cares about "goes well with phase rush": the huge majority of the mages can't use that keystone AT ALL, yet this tree is supposed to be for mages!

SalamencęMay 16, 20182 votes

No I absolutely loved it :(

Wild GeeseMay 16, 20182 votes

I don't get why people were upset about this, Ultimate Hat is on the same tree as Manaflow Band, which you now cannot do without, so freeing it into Domination would had been perfect. Also getting this additional rune, is good for the game.

Some sort of obsession like "THE SORCERY TREE IS THE MAgE TREE, it HAS THE WORD SORCERY IN IT!!".

Snowman ArcMay 17, 20182 votes

People do like to bitch about everything. Ultimate Hat wasn't even that good. You'd only get a meaningless 5% to get off with, and the next 10% would only come MUCH MUCH later into the game, unless you play someone like Karma. It wasn't that strong of a rune, but people like to overreact and overvalue this rune because "oh look I can use my R much more often now", which in most cases, it has no value.

The extra MS on activating the ulti is so much better for quite a lot of champions. It gives mobility to champions who didn't have it before. Cassio is gonna love it. Swain, Vlad will love it. People only like to bitch just for the sake of bitching.

KàtárìnãMay 16, 20181 votes

yes

DehydrationMay 16, 20181 votes

In my opinion, a lot of champions can't find a good use in nimbous cloak unlike in the ultimate hat which 90% of the champions can find vers useful. Also we are talking about sorcery tree which is supposed to be for mages, I would rather have a nimbous cloak in domination tree.

FilDaFunkMay 16, 20181 votes

{quoted} PPL complained about losing ultimate hat but what a lot of ppl don't realize is that ultimate hat worked multiplicatively with CDR. At 40% CDR, ultimate hat only gave an additional 10% CDR to the ult.

People did notice. Not sure what you mean by the point, though. It reduces base CD and people don't tend to get 40% CDR mid game.

ZullarMay 17, 20181 votes

I love Ultimate Hat. I really hope they don’t remove it from sorcery.

flibitydooMay 17, 20181 votes

I am more terrified of the rune as someone that plays soraka

do we really need olaf reaching mach 10 with item 3800 , predator rune, his ult, and now this

ChaddyFantomeMay 17, 20181 votes

i was so upset to not see it on PBE. Was looking forward to it on Talon :/

DeathBurstMay 17, 20181 votes

It's not that I don't like Nimbus Cloud. It's more that I'm concerned by them simultaneously nerfing Celerity in the line just below AND at the same time adding yet another option for MS on Sorcery.

Now, you'll be able to take MS on every single row of Sorcery (Phase Rush / Nimbus / Celerity / River walking), and yet, none of these options feel really good by itself.

Give us one good Rune for MS, and don't flood a single Path with so many different options.