You really put the nail in the coffin on this one.
Kog Jungle becomes a thing and too hard to balance so you reverted it.
Malz support has become a thing and it's too hard for you to balance it so just revert please.
Nilok6 votesMalzahar is simply too safe, especially for a Slayer/Assassin champion. Malzahar needs to be risky (or at least be risky to position) for him to be balanced. Malzahar's job is to get kills, the fact he can't do that in his intended lane now and is instead played support should tell Riot they missed their mark big.
I've been saving a bit of a rant about the changes they've made that I think is about time to let loose...
Skyroar2 votesI don't think they should revert Malz, but they definitely should start testing this champion internally with new passive mechanics.
Malzahar's rework was problematic/ flawed, but it generally went in a good direction. Voidlings are now more epic and impactful. R is not as unhealthy as it once was. E resetting is an interesting and skillful mechanic. Meanwhile, after the rework, E's base damage has been destroyed, too much damage has been given to voidlings, and his passive is so strong that it's hard to balance this champion. Even worse so, the skillful voidling blocking has been nearly removed, and his combo made clumsier.
A combination of passive + high voidling's base damage is what makes Malz support so strong pre level 6.
Take away some damage from voidlings, add some damage back to his E, softening his now-terrible farming, and revamp the passive into something healthier, more skillful and more satisfying. Those changes would be better fix the champion than reverting him entirely and bringing back his outdated kit problems.
no to toxic2 votesThey reverted Kog`Maw since he abused on-hit items to a silly degree.
lightdragoon882 votes.#revertrework
ChaddyFantome1 votesReverting him wouldn't do a damn thing. His R pre rework was way stronger and his Space aids only needed to be clicked on his target for the full damage. His Q was also stronger early as well.
He would still get picked support.
only thing he'd be giving up are the free junlge leashes for his jungler and the passive banshee's veil.
Danny DeVito13 votesReverting him wouldn't do a damn thing. His R pre rework was way stronger and his Space aids only needed to be clicked on his target for the full damage. His Q was also stronger early as well.
He would still get picked support.
only thing he'd be giving up are the free junlge leashes for his jungler and the passive banshee's veil.
No, he wouldnt' be picked support. The passive banshees veil is part of the entire reason he's played support in the first place. You can ult someone and not have it interrupted right away by what could likely be the other bot lane's only form of hard CC.
ChaddyFantome1 votesNo, he wouldnt' be picked support. The passive banshees veil is part of the entire reason he's played support in the first place.
No it isn't. the main reasons are his ultimate and his voidlings giving jugnlers free leashes. but mostly its his ultimate as it locks down any target at the press of a fucking button, with the only means of escaping being to buy a 
.
You can ult someone and not have it interrupted right away by what could likely be the other bot lane's only form of hard CC.
Except it isn't that hard to pop the thing in of itself. legit just takes one auto attacks or Sona Q/ morg Q, etc.. And While it does help vesus ranged hard CC like Leona's ultimate, it doesn't make or break how useful his ultimate is.
The main thing that would harm support Malz with a revert would be the loss of his voidling control, as it allows for strong zoning, blocking skillshots and free jungle leashes, but ultimately he is picked support because he can click on someone and lock them down , do a good amount of damage, and do so without any gold. Speaking of which, the nerf to Rylais making it cheaper also helps this as now he doesn't need to go mid to get the gold to get it.
Rebonack4 votesNo it isn't. the main reasons are his ultimate and his voidlings giving jugnlers free leashes. but mostly its his ultimate as it locks down any target at the press of a fucking button, with the only means of escaping being to buy a
His Ult pre-remake was really easy to counter-pick in a duo lane since anyone with reliable CC could knock him out of it and waste the whole thing/ 's why he was always sent Mid (or Jungle if your rolled that way).
Except it isn't that hard to pop the thing in of itself. legit just takes one auto attacks or Sona Q/ morg Q, etc.. And While it does help vesus ranged hard CC like Leona's ultimate, it doesn't make or break how useful his ultimate is.
Still provides a few moments of CC immunity so your Farmer buddy can get an extra auto-attack in.
The main thing that would harm support Malz with a revert would be the loss of his voidling control, as it allows for strong zoning, blocking skillshots and free jungle leashes, but ultimately he is picked support because he can click on someone and lock them down , do a good amount of damage, and do so without any gold. Speaking of which, the nerf to Rylais making it cheaper also helps this as now he doesn't need to go mid to get the gold to get it.
So half the reason why he's picked as a Support would be gone, cool. Now he's been shuffled back to mid again and Malz players actually enjoy playing him again. Or we could go the Lissandra route and turn his Ult into a stun. Then you can counter-pick with Cleanse. 'course, that would require not running Flash/Heal which would no doubt cause undue distress.
If you just want a long duration point and click disable that's readily available on quite a few other champs who don't get knocked out of it by a simple Thresh Flay.
ChaddyFantome1 votesHis Ult pre-remake was really easy to counter-pick in a duo lane since anyone with reliable CC could knock him out of it and waste the whole thing/ 's why he was always sent Mid (or Jungle if your rolled that way).
Still provides a few moments of CC immunity so your Farmer buddy can get an extra auto-attack in. The moment is so minuscule that it wont be protecting him from anything other than residual slowing effects.
So half the reason why he's picked as a Support would be gone, cool.
Not half. mor elike a 1/8th, His ultimate sis till the main reason he is picked support.
Now he's been shuffled back to mid again and Malz players actually enjoy playing him again.
Okay this is where you lose me. In what world woudl he suddenly be shuffled back mid just because he got reverted?
Or we could go the Lissandra route and turn his Ult into a stun. Then you can counter-pick with Cleanse. 'course, that would require not running Flash/Heal which would no doubt cause undue distress.
If you just want a long duration point and click disable that's readily available on quite a few other champs who don't get knocked out of it by a simple Thresh Flay.
Which is why Camille gets picked suppo-- oh wait, Flay knocks her out of her R too.
Its almost like the game doesn't exist purely in the vacuum of laning phase or something.
Rebonack5 votesThe moment is so minuscule that it wont be protecting him from anything other than residual slowing effects.
A fraction of a second is still a fraction of a second. How big of a buff would it be for Leona if her Q stunned for 1.25 seconds instead of 1? And it makes him more resilient to trades, too. Which is another really handy trait to have in a duo lane.
Not half. more like a 1/8th, His ultimate sis till the main reason he is picked support.
His Ult, his wave-pushing power, his ability to cock-block with Voidlings, his ability to shrug off poke, ect ect. He's not the only Mage with totally unavoidable hard CC. But he DOES have a plethora of other benefits that allows him to leverage that CC. Which removing the remake would end for the most part.
Okay this is where you lose me. In what world woudl he suddenly be shuffled back mid just because he got reverted?
In the one where he still works just fine against other mid-lane Mages instead of getting to watch his main damage source evaporating instantly all the time. People tried running Malz as a Support every now and again back in the day. It was terrible. It would still be terrible. Hypothetically it sounds workable, but it ends up being wasted potential just like trying to pair up Anivia with Vayne.
ChaddyFantome1 votesA fraction of a second is still a fraction of a second. How big of a buff would it be for Leona if her Q stunned for 1.25 seconds instead of 1? And it makes him more resilient to trades, too. Which is another really handy trait to have in a duo lane.
His Ult, his wave-pushing power, his ability to cock-block with Voidlings, his ability to shrug off poke, ect ect.
Malz had great wave pushign power before the rework. Malz is actually suseptible to poke, which is why Lulu is a good counter to him.
He's not the only Mage with totally unavoidable hard CC.
No but he is the only one with a decently ranged long lasting suppression.
Other maged with unavoidable CC either have it be short ranged or not last long, as well as be a snare or stun at best which can be removed with Mikaels, reduced heavily by Tenacity etc. usually usually all of the above. Malzahar falls under none of these.
But he DOES have a plethora of other benefits that allows him to leverage that CC. Which removing the remake would end for the most part.
Except not really. you named all of 1 that he would actually lose after being reverted.
In the one where he still works just fine against other mid-lane Mages instead of getting to watch his main damage source evaporating instantly all the time.
That wouldn't get him picked midlane again. Malzahar would still be underplayed just as he was before he rework because we would have all the trappings and game health issues he has before it as well. Also, his "main damage source" has even more chances to get killed botlane since there are 2 laners. What are you saying?
People tried running Malz as a Support every now and again back in the day. It was terrible. It would still be terrible. Hypothetically it sounds workable, but it ends up being wasted potential just like trying to pair up Anivia with Vayne.
The problem with this is you are looking at it purely in the vacuum without looking at all the factors. While i disagree with it havign been terrible, I agree it definitely wasn't meta, but Malzahar's rework isn't the only thing that made him more viable support. Many things have changed in the game since then around the game itself to make it more viable as a whole. The change to the interaction with Cleansing effects both summoner and from items is one (mikaels doesn't remove suppression anymore and neither does cleanse) , the cheapening of Rylais so he doesn't have sink as much gold in to gain the slowing effects on all his abilities, the introduction of Redemption and the changes to Locket, First turret Gold making pushing bot lane very powerful, the introduction of the Eye of the Watchers family of items, the Keystone mastery system, botlane meta matchups introduced and cycled etc etc etc
Simply put, malzahar support being viable is more due to the landscape around him making it more viable than simply the rework.
If the rework was all that was needed to make him go bot, he would have gone bot a whole season ago, not just now.
deadlychuck5 votes{quoted} If the rework was all that was needed to make him go bot, he would have gone bot a whole season ago, not just now.
I'm just gonna point out that after the MYMU, malz has always been able to support. I ran him support a few times with high success. However, I really don't care if he's powerful in the position, because i couldn't stand playing the rework. The reason he's in bot lane now is because of publicity. Simply put, there was never anything that made it stand out or gain popularity prior to the changes that removed him from other positions. He was just classified as "broken". In any positions.
However make him bad in the other positions, but still shine as a support after you thought he was dead, it's gonna be more noticeable. Seeing a broken champion in any position isn't anything special, hell I saw a support camille yesterday, seeing a champion who gets nerfed hard, still maintain notoriety in a position when all others are phase out. That catches attention.
warmcorntortilla1 votesConsidering I stole red buff on Malz support a few games ago, I'm not sure how good that early leash really is...
ChaddyFantome1 votesConsidering I stole red buff on Malz support a few games ago, I'm not sure how good that early leash really is...
Junglers' fault for to knowing how to smite tbh ;P
warmcorntortilla1 votesI'll never forget what he said. "Just keep it," he told me.
"Why no smite???"
"There was never gonna be a smite."
feelsbadman
ChaddyFantome2 voteslmao
deadlychuck6 votesYou act like he was some terror of the league before the MYMU, justifying the overhaul.
He wasn't.
He had hardly a 3% play rate since 2014, a non-existent ban rate, and hadn't seen pro-play since season 1.
You know what would happen if they reverted him? He'd be back to the state he was before the update, generally considered useless at play higher than silver, and a rare sight at silver and below.
ChaddyFantome1 votesYou act like he was some terror of the league before the MYMU, justifying the overhaul.
I fail to see how i am but please continue to strawman. it's entertaining. Malzahar was my main and favorite mage for an extended amount of time. He is admittedly still one of my favourites too. That said, his kit was (and still kind of is) pretty cancer, and thus Riot refrained from giving him any buffs or love because his kit was in a state where doing so would easily break him.
The only reason he wasn't a terror of midlane was because Riot deliberately didn't let him be.
He wasn't.
Never said he was.
He had hardly a 3% play rate since 2014, a non-existent ban rate, and hadn't seen pro-play since season 1.
Is this really the depth of our argument? How incredibly shallow.
You know what would happen if they reverted him? He'd be back to the state he was before the update, generally considered useless at play higher than silver, and a rare sight at silver and below.
And in what way would this be a good thing?
deadlychuck4 votesYou're calling my argument shallow, but offer no counter points, just ridicule of mine. [slayer-jinx-unamused]
You're right you never claimed he was some kind of "terror of the league" as i put it. However, you did state
Reverting him wouldn't do a damn thing.
despite the fact that reverting him would effectively put him back into the same spot he was, prior to the MYMU. So trying to say it wouldn't fix anything, implies these problems existed prior to the rework, which they apparently didn't. Based on, well those numbers that you brushed off for no expressed reason.
The only reason he wasn't a terror of midlane was because Riot deliberately didn't let him be.
Bullshit, the reason he wasn't was because playing him in any way other than a W,E,R combo was actually reasonably difficult, given a lack of mobility and hard CC which is needed to survive against the current state of the game. He required a decent amount of proactive play to keep control over the lane, and had a list of many common mid champions which were either a coin toss or stomped him... Hard.
Is this really the depth of our argument? How incredibly shallow.
Do you really not have any kind of counter point to actually discredit or remove reliance of those facts? Now that's shallow.
You know what would happen if they reverted him? He'd be back to the state he was before the update, generally considered useless at play higher than silver, and a rare sight at silver and below.
And in what way would this be a good thing?
I don't think it's inherently good or bad, but i do think that it's a better starting point for making adjustments to the champion than where they set it with the MYMU. After all, his abilities didn't have their power connected. You could efficiently target a single aspect of his kit, without causing adverse affects to the rest of how he plays. This is something that the Voidling Swarm, as the emphasis of his kit and as an ability, has made nearly impossible, and why he manages to just migrate to a new position with every iteration.
ChaddyFantome1 votesYou're calling my argument shallow, but offer no counter points, just ridicule of mine. [slayer-jinx-unamused]
What ridicule?
Also, I have already posted what is basically an essay worth of points as is, i don't have the patience to report it all, I apologize. you can find it in this very thread.
You're right you never claimed he was some kind of "terror of the league" as i put it. However, you did state
despite the fact that reverting him would effectively put him back into the same spot he was, prior to the MYMU. So trying to say it wouldn't fix anything, implies these problems existed prior to the rework, which they apparently didn't. Based on, well those numbers that you brushed off for no expressed reason.
The MYMU isn't the pure and only reason he is played botlane as a support is why. him being reverted wouldn't make him not played support.
Bullshit, the reason he wasn't was because playing him in any way other than a W,E,R combo was actually reasonably difficult, given a lack of mobility and hard CC which is needed to survive against the current state of the game. He required a decent amount of proactive play to keep control over the lane, and had a list of many common mid champions which were either a coin toss or stomped him... Hard.
Yes and Riot never gave him any fixes _until the rework changed his stuff around to do so) I don't think you grasp the crux of my point here. Riot deliberately did not buff malzahar because doing so would easily break him given how his kit worked fundamentally. He just clicked buttons on you and you died with little window way of doing anything to escape it. Old Malzahar clicked E on you for 50+ % of your HP. He melted tanks for 30-40% with W and E. It was nuts.
Do you really not have any kind of counter point to actually discredit or remove reliance of those facts? Now that's shallow.
No. because these facts are utterly irrelevant to the point at hand and every time I see people throw win and play rates around mindlessly i take them just that much less seriously. It has literally no bearings on the points being made here. You are just parroting random values you don't even understand the actual meaning of. That's why i called it shallow.
I don't think it's inherently good or bad, but i do think that it's a better starting point for making adjustments to the champion than where they set it with the MYMU.
I disagree. Malzahar, as troublesome a she is, is far healthier as a champion after the rework. Reverting him woudl accomplish absolutely nothing. it would be like giving up.
After all, his abilities didn't have their power connected.
That is terrible design.
You could efficiently target a single aspect of his kit, without causing adverse affects to the rest of how he plays.
No you couldn't. Doing so would just make him too much of a generalist, and thus not let him every truly be strong.
This is something that the Voidling Swarm, as the emphasis of his kit and as an ability, has made nearly impossible, and why he manages to just migrate to a new position with every iteration.
I disagree. The reason Malzahar, again, is being played botlane atm is because he can afford to do so on a support budget and be just as useful doing so, which frees up midlane for another powerful midlane pick. The landscape around him is more responsible for this than merely the MYMU.
Again, reverting him wouldn't change this.
deadlychuck2 votesI can't be bothered to read this format and the wall of texts anymore, you get one last response and i'm done with talking to a brick wall. Multiple times you've offered what amounts to offhand remarks with no valid explanation to why what you're saying would be the case.
At best you made the point that he can be played on a support budget, and that the landscape changed, which i agree with. However, you don't see 
being played support, despite her having a very similar kit to malzahar's pre-MYMU. It might not pull him out of being able to support, but it wouldn't restrict him to it either. As someone had replied to you earlier, a substantial portion of his kit that makes him a powerful support was introduced in the MYMU. His ult would still exist, but that's the only thing that would.
I'm also going to point out, that you claiming reverting him would be equivalent to giving up is just wrong. As stated, the independence of his skills is a major factor in it being easier to adjust, but on top of that, riot never even released number adjustments to his kit to see the effects. Which for the record, independent complementary spells aren't "bad design", that's literally nothing more than an opinion.
You also seem to not understand what makes a champion a generalist... What makes a champion a generalist is giving them mechanics which apply to a wide range of situations, mobility being the most notable. Yasuo, Lee sin, Riven, and Thresh are good examples of generalist champions.
And just to be clear, i also don't normally pay much mind to stats. However, they are relevant in this situation, because they go against the narrative riot used to justify the rework in the first place. Riot said that he limited the changes to the game, i'll just ignore that they just implied that doing so is a bad thing, yet those numbers show how insubstantial he actually was.
However i did find this bit a little humorous, by what it implies.
Riot deliberately did not buff malzahar because doing so would easily break him given how his kit worked fundamentally.
If this is true, then riot is intentionally creeping the power of the game. Now granted it's based on your assumption that riot wanted to buff malzahar.
ChaddyFantome1 votesI can't be bothered to read this format and the wall of texts anymore, you get one last response and i'm done with talking to a brick wall. Multiple times you've offered what amounts to offhand remarks with no valid explanation to why what you're saying would be the case.
Irony
At best you made the point that he can be played on a support budget, and that the landscape changed, which i agree with. However, you don't see
We have actually. That said, Syndra brings little no no inherent utility to the team. All she has is her Knockback stun and damage. She is far more powerful mid.
Syndra doesn't function as well with support itemisation the same way Malzahar does. Malz is getting rylais and liandies regardless of him being mid or support. Syndra isn't.
So why put him mid when he can go support and get his items just as easily on a support budget and be just as useful? You aren't grasping this concept at all.
What makes a champ appealing in the support role comes to how fundamentally useful they are with little to no gold.
It might not pull him out of being able to support, but it wouldn't restrict him to it either. As someone had replied to you earlier, a substantial portion of his kit that makes him a powerful support was introduced in the MYMU. His ult would still exist, but that's the only thing that would.
Except his voidlings barely make him more "viable" support than they would otherwise. What do they actually bring to the table in the support position that make shim so powerful support? easy to apply damage and harass? Old Malzahar had that. And more consistently since his voidlings can be killed and there are more people to kill them bot lane.
If anyone is being a brick wall here it is you. You arent actually thinking about the strengths of malzahar support actually are. you are simply asserting that he is being played there as a result of the MYMU and creating placebos to accord and convice yourself it si true, while blindly refusting anythign that opposes that narrative.
Also, in what facet do you view malzahar as restricted to Support? he is p[erfectly fine midlane as is. He is only better support because he saves the midlane for a pick that needs ti more as he does not need to go mid to be effective.
I'm also going to point out, that you claiming reverting him would be equivalent to giving up is just wrong. As stated, the independence of his skills is a major factor in it being easier to adjust, but on top of that, riot never even released number adjustments to his kit to see the effects.
except the "indepedance" of his spells was part of why he wa sos unhealthy and ininteractive and lacked nay meaningful skill expression. As far as I cna tell, the only people that want him reverted, don't actually care about his prevalence botlane, but simply are the group that got upset that they couldn't just click on someone for 50% of their HP anymore and actually had to string their spells together now.
And i say this as a person who played malzahar extensively before his rework.
And the claim that it would make him easier to balance shows your ignorance on anythign pertaining to balance. Having spells be dependant on one another is one of the best ways to balance things ebhcause adding conditional power means there is actual skill expression, outplayability and interaction between the player and the person playing the champion.
prework malz clicked E on youa nd that was it. Rework malzahar clicks E, then times his Q just right and then maybe even time shis ulti just right to maximize his E damage.
He put shis voidlings down to eat at the person as well.
This means the person playign against malz knows to back off to avoid his Q and can kite back and kill his voidlings to mitigate his damage as opposed to being SOL just for being within 500 units of him.
These levers make it easier to balance malzahar as they can make him powerful and rewarded for properly reaching these conditions, whereas completely independent spells have to all be toned down inately based on how easy it is to use them as the condition amounts to nothing more than using it, or make half his kit pwerul and the otherhalf mediocre to "compensate".
Old Malzahar's passive and W are the perfect example of this, as his power budget was all loaded into his E and Ultimate.
Which for the record, independent complementary spells aren';t "bad design", that;s literally nothing more than an opinion.
If that is the case, the claim that it is otherwise is nothing short of the same, except with no backing whatesoever to boot outside of the empty claim.
You also seem to not understand what makes a champion a generalist... What makes a champion a generalist is giving them mechanics which apply to a wide range of situations, mobility being the most notable. Yasuo, Lee sin, Riven, and Thresh are good examples of generalist champions.
Again irony. You are the one who don't know what a generalist is. a Generalist is a champion that to widely covers all the bases of within their class and thus cant be alowed to be powerful or they crowed out every other champ in the class.
Here you very weakly and pathetically try to claim that because malz has no mobility he isn't a generalist despite it having absolutely zero correlation with the term. P{lease do your research.
And just to be clear, i also don't normally pay much mind to stats. However, they are relevant in this situation, because they go against the narrative riot used to justify the rework in the first place. Riot said that he limited the changes to the game, i'll just ignore that they just implied that doing so is a bad thing, yet those numbers show how insubstantial he actually was.
Im sorry but i dont quite understand what you are infering here. Can i get a proper explanation?
However i did find this bit a little humorous, by what it implies.
If this is true, then riot is intentionally creeping the power of the game. Now granted it's based on your assumption that riot wanted to buff malzahar.
I wouldn't say intentionally. If anything, it was purely unintentional. It is just what naturally happens over the course of an ever evolving and expanding long term game space. The creators get better and making stuff and thus powercreep.
Looknook6 votesReverting him would fix most of the problems with support Malz.The things that make him strong or his void links and his ability to harass. While his ultimate is good in the duo lane Malphites Ultimate is also pretty useful in a duo lane. You don't typically see Malphite as support for the same reason you didn't see Malz as support. As supports they have very little lane presence outside of their ultimates, why? They spells are all really high cost, for little reward.
Currently Malz support's lane control mostly comes from his Voidlings. His E and Q help but it the Voidlings that are the majority of his damage. Malzahar's high mana costs were negated when he was in a solo-lane, getting the mana for having his E jump to new things. Support Malz can't do that.
Reverting the Rework would fix support Malz by making him unable to effectively support.
Thresh Outta Fux1 votesMan, I'm not sure how long most boards players have been playing...
But for someone who started S3-S4, not being able to play half of your old mains due to Rito "Fixing" (Read: Breaking) them, it's a little "Heartfixing" (Read: Heartbreaking).
