@Repertoir, Serious post about Ninja tabi

Ahristocats·Mar 14, 2018·26 votes·25,835 views

If you're looking to nerf it as a toplane main i need to know

Can you guys make the passive damage reduction going from 10% to 5-12% based on lvls?

please no more "whoever has ninja tabi first wins the lane"

79 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 14, 201826 votes

We could. We planned for 8.7 yesterday, and Tabi came up. I'm not sure what the end result will look like, but Tabi work of some magnitude should be on PBE next cycle.

haywire androidMar 14, 201838 votes

So Tabi nerfs are comming next patch, but marksmen aren't changed until midseason at its earliest?

Could you elaborate a bit on the thought process behind this? Ninja Tabi is currently the only item working as a safety vent for the adc meta and I'm a bit worried I'll have to waint untill ~august to play the game again

HópeMar 14, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=haywire android,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EmsALxTW,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-03-14T23:24:05.903+0000)

So Tabi nerfs are comming next patch, but marksmen aren't changed until midseason at its earliest?

Could you elaborate a bit on the thought process behind this? Ninja Tabi is currently the only item working as a safety vent for the adc meta and I'm a bit worried I'll have to waint untill ~august to play the game again

Could you perhaps think that marksmen arent as busted as you think and maybe you just suck.

ZJD123Mar 15, 201825 votes

[deleted]

AirKingNeoMar 17, 20181 votes

Ok circlejerker

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 15, 201824 votes

They're being worked on in parallel. Being worked on in 8.7 cycle doesn't mean it absolutely ships in 8.7. For some very recent examples of this, waveclear was being worked on last cycle, and there are no waveclear changes going into 8.6. Leblanc was on the PBE for the 8.6 cycle, but she won't be in 8.6.

Additionally, Ninja Tabi has multiple tuning levers on it. We could theoretically just reduce/remove the Armor from it and increase the AA DR passive to 15% (or whatever the cost-appropriate change is).

DeathProfessorMar 15, 20186 votes

Are you thinking about giving a little bit more buffs to merc. treads? Sorry but getting cc-ed feels like an eternity.

DorkunedAurasMar 15, 20183 votes

But the primary CC is displacements, which tenacity don't effect.

I am RazgrizMar 16, 20182 votes

which, honestly, something should be done about this.

ZJD123Mar 15, 20186 votes

{quoted}

They're being worked on in parallel. Being worked on in 8.7 cycle doesn't mean it absolutely ships in 8.7. For some very recent examples of this, waveclear was being worked on last cycle, and there are no waveclear changes going into 8.6. Leblanc was on the PBE for the 8.6 cycle, but she won't be in 8.6.

Additionally, Ninja Tabi has multiple tuning levers on it. We could theoretically just reduce/remove the Armor from it and increase the AA DR passive to 15% (or whatever the cost-appropriate change is).

I gotta back you up on this one RitoReperty, reducing its armor significantly and then changing the AA DR to 5-15% depending on level would be a great change.

SteelflameMar 15, 20183 votes

Infact, if you look at the math (As I did in another thread) if you reduce it's armor by 15 (making it only have the basic cloth armor's armor) but increase the DR to 15%, it retains the same value vs auto attacks (seriously. At 200 AD and 125-140 armor depending on "new" vs "old", the damage difference on auto is .1), but is nerfed vs physical spells a fair degree. It also is nerfed early game in just about any situation.

Z3SleeperMar 15, 20183 votes

That's the point. It's to nerf the early purchase of it but retain its value later in the game once you have more defenses/enemy has more AD.

ShaianMar 15, 20181 votes

What about „reduces the attackspeed of the next basicattack by 10%“. We could finally balance AD Assassins while Tabis wouldnt be something you have to consider. Like i doubt Rengar wouldve needed many buffs when he got reverted. Mainly just the fact people didnt figure out how good tabis were back in the days already and how much it affects his damage output.

Balancing Rengar to being good/ok when enemies have tabis makes him too overwhelming, when the enemies doesnt.

Z3SleeperMar 15, 20182 votes

There's a reason they went on a witch hunt for attack speed slowing effects a long time ago.

BeardedLuchadorMar 15, 20185 votes

I feel like it's not so much that Tabi are "too good" as it is the rest of the boots options don't feel impactful/meaningful over Tabi. Merc Treads for example won't prevent you from getting chain-CC'd into oblivion, just reduces the duration of each individual effect (in some cases it feels inconsequential). Ninja Tabi are "ol reliable" and almost always can--in some way--contribute to your overall durability.

I am RazgrizMar 16, 20181 votes

Gonna throw my voice in there for I hope that neither the armor or the anti AA damage completely goes away, but that one is reduced and the other is strengthened. Some compelling arguments below for reducing armor but increasing AA damage though. Dunno about making it per level based though since AA damage naturally scales with level anyway and Junglers kind of need Ninja Tabi (then again, Jungle just does too much damage).

thatguyfergMar 16, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=haywire android,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EmsALxTW,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-03-14T23:24:05.903+0000)

So Tabi nerfs are comming next patch, but marksmen aren't changed until midseason at its earliest?

Could you elaborate a bit on the thought process behind this? Ninja Tabi is currently the only item working as a safety vent for the adc meta and I'm a bit worried I'll have to waint untill ~august to play the game again

Tbh an 1100 gold tier 2 boot shouldn't be strong enough to be a safety net against the adc meta. Though I share your pain as a non-ad player I even have to admit that tabis are incredibly strong for just being boots.

AkeneroMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We could. We planned for 8.7 yesterday, and Tabi came up. I'm not sure what the end result will look like, but Tabi work of some magnitude should be on PBE next cycle.

what about a flat damage reduction, instead of percentage, that increases over the course of the game?

LankPantsMar 15, 20183 votes

That does the opposite of what you'd want. It hits fighters like Irelia/Jax/Shyvana who rely on many small AAs harder than ADCs who can deal large critical strikes.

Spank the FoxMar 15, 20181 votes

So wouldn’t smaller AAs have less damage shaved off than bigger number autos (say, I dunno, CRITS?) meaning it’s a harder hit to ADCs?

Honestly.

Not only that, but your examples do mixed damage anyways. We can just focus on the physical side of autos rather than empowered attacks.

LankPantsMar 15, 20183 votes

Do you not understand what a flat damage reduction is?

20-10=10 100-10=90

Which one is more effected?

The large AAs have more damage shaved off when we're talking about % changes, not flat. Look, I know it's hard, but can you at least put 5 seconds worth of thought in before you post?

Spank the FoxMar 16, 20181 votes

Except one is a 10% damage reduction and the other is a 50% damage reduction.

Why is talking to you always make me feel like beating my head on a wall? Put some thought into your post.

LankPantsMar 16, 20184 votes

He's arguing for a flat damage reduction. What I did was apply a flat damage reduction of 10, not 10%, not 50%, 10, the number 10, I subtracted 10 from both. It's really not rocket science, that's what a flat reduction is.

The fact it's a 50% decrease for one and a 10% for the other is get this, the point. A flat decrease disproportionately effects small numbers while having almost no effect on larger ones.

Azure DivinityMar 16, 20181 votes

Damn, you annihilated him

EyasHawkMar 15, 20184 votes

Please do so, Im begging you, as an AD Assassin main (Talon), having an 1100 Gold item negating my 5800 Gold worth of lethality feels absolutely horrible. The passive is just overkill, especially now that Duskblade is getting nerfed.

On a side note, is there anything planned for a phase rush buff? I miss taking stormraiders on Talon, and phase rush really doesnt feel good on him till around lvl 12-13 (which is when Talon starts falling off anyway), why was there a need to make the MS scaling unlike with stormraiders?

XxDRAGONsAK47xXMar 15, 20182 votes

Please do some early level nerfs...

As someone who plays Quinn quite a bit its very frustrating to see me get first blood in lane just for them to come back with ninja tabi and I do no damage...

OzXMar 15, 20181 votes

Do you think a "stacking" effect might work? AADR could go from 5% to 15%, increasing by 2% for each auto attack (from the same champion probably, so if champion A hits me several times, champion B's first AA will only be reduced by 5%). This would obviously make it a more tank focused item as you need to take several auto attacks before getting full benefit. Or do you like it being a general item that can benefit anyone?

Illâoi Evê SiônMar 15, 20181 votes

Will any Twisted Treeline work be on the next PBE cycle?

NsatoMar 15, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We could. We planned for 8.7 yesterday, and Tabi came up. I'm not sure what the end result will look like, but Tabi work of some magnitude should be on PBE next cycle.

Ive been thinking for a while that the passive on Randuin's and the passive on Tabi should be swapped. It makes Tabi a much less attractive item for negating AA-intense matchups and makes Randuins less of a "well, its got a slow active" item that it currently is.

BleKzMar 15, 20181 votes

Indeed, make sure to nerf adc itemization if you plan on shipping any kind of ninja tabi nerfs or the game will be destroyed

Sagee PrimeMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We could. We planned for 8.7 yesterday, and Tabi came up. I'm not sure what the end result will look like, but Tabi work of some magnitude should be on PBE next cycle.

Boots are a unique item set and I think they need a complete overhaul akin to how jungle items got reworked

XyltinMar 16, 20181 votes

I know my opinion is unpopular. You can change tabis but not nerf it. Tabis are popular in the first place because they are needed and they lack options. But that is not different from any other boots. Mercs are often bought when no other boots are needed, Sorcerer in the mid lane with maybe CDR boots now and then due to MPen being so strong. Zerkers on the ADC. Mobi on supports. Boots alsways lack options and with the current power from ADCs most people (junglers and top laners) need tabis. Even a Fiora and Camille will want tabis against ADCs. It is just natural to buy the best item against the largest threat.

Now to why the boots are mostly fine in power actually:

In a 45 base armor scenario tabis would reduce your AA dmg taken by ~25%. Zerkers with 35% bonus AS from runes and items already increase your AA DPS by ~25%. So they are even, except that Zerkes work like that in your favor against every enemy, Tabis only work against 1, maybe 2 enemies that well.
tabis scale decently with armor but so do zerkers, CDR and mercs. But we even see ADCs right now that don't need to go into LW and still kill tanks without problem (Kog, Varus and Xayah are the 3 best examples).
tabis against a pure AA champ are worth ~1550g early on, which is great. But how many champs or how often do you have a puer AA situation? that is very rare (Trundle, Trynda and Draven are likely the only 3 that get as close to pure AAing as possible). But if you have a more balnaced situation the value goes down to ~1400g, which is close to Zerkerss 1415g value. So their value is actually not that out of line
situational stats need to be good for/against that certain situation. If you buy anti crit but you have on AVG just 1 enemy that has crit, what does the item do when it isn't strong enough that the stat matters? It becomes useless. Tabis, as good as they are against some champs, they are not good against the overall enemey team on their own. They need to be complemented with HP and MR to make the target actually tanky.

I am not saying that tabis should not be changed. I am saying that their power lvl is actually fine. The larger problem are additional options for other sitautions. Top laners for example don't really have good boots options. ADCs also don't. Mid laners can decide between MPen and CDR but that has more to do with them reaching 40% CDR without the boots or not and just how strong MPen is.

Make boots for AD assassins as an option to CDR and Mobi. Make boots for top laners that don't want tabis or mercs to be similar in strength.

From what I have seen with my theory crafting (did a lot more than just that) Tabis are not really a problem for most champs, they just feel like one because everyone takes them early like Sorc shoes, but they are against certain champs so a Mao can buy them against Fiora but Fiora lacks good options against Mao (Mercs are good in teamfights with all the magic dmg and CC, but against only Mao they suck). So the problem is not that Tabis are too good but that the other side lacks options for themselves.

Ok, boots are overall too strong actually. Zerkers, Tabi and Sorc shoes are insane. CDR boots are also insane in scaling when stacked with more CDR. Mobi are very special so I will ignore them here. Mercs and Swiftness are likely the only ones that are not that crazy strong.

So pls, don't just look into Taibs but look into boots overall. There are too many niches that are missing for boots and most boots overall are actually really powerful. Maybe it is time to give T2 boost +5 MS and reduce the stats, to make the upgrade a choice based on MS and not as much based on pure stat gains.

YourSh4dowMar 16, 20181 votes

{quoted}

We could. We planned for 8.7 yesterday, and Tabi came up. I'm not sure what the end result will look like, but Tabi work of some magnitude should be on PBE next cycle.

if u r gonna nerf it hard u might as well change the passive completely (and rename the item). Or bring back the dodge stat it had originaly...

AirKingNeoMar 14, 20188 votes

can we nerf bramble vest and thornmail so they aren't auto win vs bruiser items?

AhristocatsMar 14, 20187 votes

sure teach the entire euw server to rush bramble vest against bruisers

i have like 18 renekton games atm NOT A SINGLE SION I FOUGHT YET in master tier bought bramble vest

HammermancerMar 15, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Je suis Rubick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EmsALxTW,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-14T22:01:15.948+0000)

sure teach the entire euw server to rush bramble vest against bruisers

i have like 18 renekton games atm NOT A SINGLE SION I FOUGHT YET in master tier bought bramble vest

Jayce item 3076 item 3047 sup?

Lil Homie bustaMar 14, 20187 votes

Just decrease the armor (don't even know why it has that much armor) and increase the DR of ranged basic attacks to 15%. There, it's done.

iDarkWindMar 15, 20184 votes

The biggest Issue I have is that ADC's are also building it for countering both item 3147 and item 3142 lethality. A 1100 gold item is capable to denie the lethality provided by those two items, wich to me makes no sense. I would suggest to decrease the armor from 30 to 15 perhaps, and increase the damage reduction on the passive from auto attacks a bit. I can't remenber a situation where I would build item 3111 over item 3047 , unless the enemy team is very AP oriented and the enemie ADC isn't a treat.

Daddy AntsMar 15, 20182 votes

item 3047 negating 5,800 gold of items is legit gameplay balance.

Kappa

Reduce the armor to 10 or 15. Passive effect scales 5-12% based on owner's level.

Meep ManMar 15, 20181 votes

5,800 gold? What?

iDarkWindMar 15, 20185 votes

It denies both Duskblade and Ghostblade lethality. Must of the times, if you aren't super fed or the enemy ADC isn't extremly behind, if they have a Tabis you won't be able to kill them in a single rotation, you'll be forced to auto them to the death wich sometimes lead also to your death.

D E MerryMar 16, 20182 votes

That's not how gold values work though... it denies the lethality portion of it, okay, but it doesn't counter the AD nor the actives/passives of the items. Lethality purely as a gold value at Serrated Dirk can be seen more of 1100 gold for SD --> It grants 25 AD at 35g/AD based off longsword (350g per 10 AD) meaning the AD alone is worth 875g, and thus the remaining 225G potion of serrated dirk the gold value of the 10 Lethality on Serrated Dirk, which is reasonable in comparison to a cloth armor, especially given the fact if you buy a Last Whisper/Black Cleaver, flat pen applies afterwards so your Lethality is more meaningful percentage wise (100 base + 300 bonus armor, 40 Lethality = 10% of total armor gone, with a LW and 40 Lethality --> Lethality pens 13.3% of total armor instead). Given that idea countering 36 Lethality with 30 armor is the equivalent of using 600g in armor (two cloth armors) to counter 810g in Lethality, not 5800g of items, as that bonus armor doesn't do anything for the 110 AD that you've purchased in items (3850g) or the other unique passives and actives BECAUSE the lethality penetrates it. So unless 30armor counters BOTH 110AD AND 36 lethality at the same time, you're nowhere near actually countering 5800g, as your cooldown reduction, actives, and AD all remain the same even while the lethality is negated.