Ziggs

The Bearded Bard··26 votes·1,909 views

Back in 2014 Ziggs was a top pick/ban in competitive play and a popular solo queue champion, nowadays he's never picked competitively and he's in the bottom 10 in terms of popularity, sporting an average 2% playrate with a 48% winrate. You nerfed him way too hard.

His ult has a 120 second cooldown at all ranks. Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous? I get that it has huge range, but it's also incredibly easy to dodge, and their reasoning for it was that Ziggs players were using the ult to clear waves in other lanes then having it up for the next teamfight too soon. That doesn't seem like a big enough issue to hike up the cooldown by that much. I agree that enemies should have a window of opportunity when Ziggs uses his ult like that, I don't agree that it should be two minutes.

They also reduced the radius on his Q, making it pretty damn hard to hit. I'm actually alright with this considering how much damage and how low the cooldown is on the ability.

They also lowered his attack range by 25 and his movement speed by 5. That may not seem like much, but combined it's a pretty big deal. If I were them I'd revert one of the two.

TL;DR Change cooldown on ult to 120/110/100 (Not as low as it used to be, but a huge improvement to what it is now) and either increase his range by 25 or his movement speed by 5.

A bit of perspective for ya: Zilean has a base movement speed of 335, Lux's is 330, and Vel'koz's is a whopping 340. These are all poke mages with more CC than Ziggs. I understand that Ziggs has his W, but you need to understand that that ability is 1. not the most reliable ability out there, and 2. starts at a 26 second cooldown that goes down to 18 seconds at level 5 (lvl 18).

42 Comments

Zerolera8 votes

Part of the reason why Zigg has fallen out of popularity this season that poke mages as a whole have seen a decline but also more importantly - Ziggs strengths were in the ability to wave clear extremely efficiently to keep a game going late. That's just not needed right now. And of course the rise of assassins probably aren't helping him.

IsmokeOregano3 votes

taking away mana potions didn't help much either

Zerolera3 votes

Agreed since he was reliant on his abilities to farm - but honestly I'm overall glad mana potions are gone. The days of pantheon mid spearing you OVER AND OVER have finally come to an end.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

I'll agree with that. Mana potions helped more AD champions than AP. Pantheon JarvanIV Olaf Yorick Jayce Nasus Talon Urgot Varus

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EhaENsLi,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-08T22:04:41.773+0000)

I'll agree with that. Mana potions helped more AD champions than AP. Pantheon JarvanIV Olaf Yorick Jayce Nasus Talon Urgot Varus

don't get me started on the ones who are not mana-gated

TehNACHO2 votes

I feel like you missed the point of the post.

MohawkBird8 votes

But they added an actually good mana mastery and compensated with base mana and mana regen buffs. The removal of mana pots honestly wasn't all that bad as people make it out to be. I have no problem sustaining mana with the mastery + buffs given prior as long as I am not mindlessly spamming.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

Eh, I don't really like that I have to sacrifice the damage mastery to get mana regen. I already have to postpone damage/utility items to rush a mana item.

MohawkBird1 votes

You are likely gonna be building early mana regen regardless if you are a mage or caster anyways. The mana regen gets you through the early game and the damage from executioner isn't really all that game changing, especially in the early game. Your abilities early game will do around 100 damage for a poke spell, which equates to a whopping 5 damage increase, over much needed mana to be able to poke and cs more it's well worth it.

TotalJerk1 votes

Never used them on Ziggs, myself.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

Ziggs's decline was long before preseason began. Like I said, for all of 2015 he wasn't picked or banned competitively and his solo queue popularity and winrate plummeted.

Tannhäuser Gate1 votes

he was in the middle of the season, Around MSI

The Bearded Bard2 votes

That's an outlier.

Tannhäuser Gate1 votes

You said he was not picked at all competitively.

Spoofghoul8 votes

But playing vs Ziggs is kinda boring he just sits there and waveclears and pokes with bombs and due to his passive you can never leave lane because he will rekt your tower but you can never touch his because ult . . .

I suppose he will get attention in the immobile mage overhaul along with the likes of Xerath and Vel'koz

The Bearded Bard2 votes

No different from playing vs GP top lane. Or Anivia, Zilean, Zyra, Lux, Xerath, Vel'koz, Morg, Malz, etc mid lane.

TotalJerk1 votes

I dunno about Anivia because I've barely played against her and never played as her. But I know almost every other champion on that list is far easier to engage on and stick to than Ziggs, the closest is Morgana.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

GP has higher base MS, a huge MS boost, multiple slows, and a heal that removes all CC.

Zilean has an ult that revives himself to full health, a 99% speed up/slow that can be used twice, and a stun.

Anivia has a massive slow field, a wall, another slow, and a stun.

Lux has a massive slow field, a double applying aoe shield, and a 2 second snare.

Morgana has a 3 second snare, a slow that becomes a stun, and a magic shield that blocks all cc.

Vel'koz has a spammable slow and a knockup.

Ziggs has a slow that has an arm time, and a knockback that can knock him in the opposite direction.

I'll give you Xerath and Malz, but the rest of them all have the same wave clear and are way harder to stick to.

Seenan1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EhaENsLi,comment-id=0002000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-09T08:05:55.091+0000)

GP has higher base MS, a huge MS boost, multiple slows, and a heal that removes all CC.

Zilean has an ult that revives himself to full health, a 99% speed up/slow that can be used twice, and a stun.

Anivia has a massive slow field, a wall, another slow, and a stun.

Lux has a massive slow field, a double applying aoe shield, and a 2 second snare.

Morgana has a 3 second snare, a slow that becomes a stun, and a magic shield that blocks all cc.

Vel'koz has a spammable slow and a knockup.

Ziggs has a slow that has an arm time, and a knockback that can knock him in the opposite direction.

I'll give you Xerath and Malz, but the rest of them all have the same wave clear and are way harder to stick to.

Competent Lux?

IsmokeOregano7 votes

you post for galio and now ziggs?! i think we just became best friends. +1

I agree his ult cooldown is pretty ridiculous and is definitely easily dodged i usually only use it right in front of my face, or if someone is recalling or about to come out of zhonyas. Never thought to throw it to a defending tower for wave clear... that's pretty smart

imo i think he satchel charge has a pretty harsh cooldown too. Yea, he isn't supposed to be up in peoples face, but it's his only disengage. Considering the super high mobility of mid laners (yasuo) i think they should lower it a tad to help him play safer

AbusingMyRights1 votes

upvoted because galio and ziggz are sweet, try item 3165 item 3174 and just spam q every 2 seconds, even if you dont hit every q, its up again almost as soon as it blows up and has a good range.

Dark Nephthys5 votes

Yea you're right about the cool down being a bit much...

Ziggs: 120 Second CD (72 Seconds with max CDR) Lux: 50 CD (30 Seconds with max CDR)

But in all seriousness, if Riot increased the duration of his ultimate just to help combat him being able to push waves easily, then maybe lower down the damage of his damage on minions. Maybe instead of Minions taking double damage, lower it down to minions take 50% more damage, then lower down the CD of his ult to 100/90/80 (The cool down going down that much is to make up for it's minion damage decrease...though I guess if that's to much then maybe 75% bonus damage to minions and the CD to 120/110/100 or something like that.)

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I'd be down with that.

Sohleks4 votes

The nail in the coffin was definitely the Q hitbox nerf.

Ranged champions that know what to do vs. Ziggs almost have to voluntarily walk into their creeps to get hit now unless Ziggs dumps his other spells to simply help zone/guide. Ironically I find he does best vs. the melee mid lane assassins that are known to want to eat Ziggs. His zoning and skillshots work much better on them.

In teamfight I find he is reliant on team CC to get reliable dmg out. That's not a bad thing for the game tho.

So I find Ziggs only effective with good allied CC skills and particular [difficult] mid lane matchups (unless you're content just farming....). Then even there there's more tried and true stronger choices.

Mestm973 votes

I freaking hated Ziggs and i remember how much i suffered with his 10 sec mines...

Anyway these buffs are the correct, i even think they could give him both the range and mov speed buff but i agree that his ulti is the piority right now.

The Bearded Bard4 votes

It's nice to see someone that openly hates Ziggs agree that he needs buffs.

Mael bro3 votes

Ziggs is a disgusting little rat, that doesn't deserve any buffs. He's like Heimerdinger 2.0, he was able to easily turtle and stall your team to late game with his low cooldown ulti. I still remember when he was FOTM permapick and every Ziggs picker was a whiny crybaby when he didn't get to easily faceroll to victory with his overpowered champion. The sad part is that his place was overtaken by Lux and Brand who are even effective as supports. When Ziggs is strong he's as disgusting to play against as any assassin. Mindlessly mashing Q and expecting big results to happen ain't exactly my cup of tea.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I appreciate your extremely biased response.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

Ziggs is a disgusting little rat, that doesn't deserve any buffs. He's like Heimerdinger 2.0, he was able to easily turtle and stall your team to late game with his low cooldown ulti. I still remember when he was FOTM permapick and every Ziggs picker was a whiny crybaby when he didn't get to easily faceroll to victory with his overpowered champion. The sad part is that his place was overtaken by Lux and Brand who are even effective as supports. When Ziggs is strong he's as disgusting to play against as any assassin. Mindlessly mashing Q and expecting big results to happen ain't exactly my cup of tea.

Honestly, I don't like Ziggs in the slightest. But I do need more somewhat immobile mages to feed on other than seeing Zed every game. He could stand for a buff or so.

Remlap12232 votes

It's pretty ridiculous. I know Ziggs had been problematic in competitive, but he also was extremely easy to shut down. I wasn't really ok with any of his nerfs, but the ultimate nerf was the final nail in the coffin. I'm pretty sure that he is the only champion in the game whose ultimate doesn't decrease in cool down per level. That's extremely asinine.

Dropping the cool down by ten seconds per level is not going to break Ziggs. This nerf is one of those knee jerk reaction nerfs that just made zero sense, like Galio, Singed, and Shen having no MR per level, or Kalista having her AAs scale with only 90% of her AD.

Seenan1 votes

{quoted}

It's pretty ridiculous. I know Ziggs had been problematic in competitive, but he also was extremely easy to shut down. I wasn't really ok with any of his nerfs, but the ultimate nerf was the final nail in the coffin. I'm pretty sure that he is the only champion in the game whose ultimate doesn't decrease in cool down per level. That's extremely asinine.

Dropping the cool down by ten seconds per level is not going to break Ziggs. This nerf is one of those knee jerk reaction nerfs that just made zero sense, like Galio, Singed, and Shen having no MR per level, or Kalista having her AAs scale with only 90% of her AD.

The Kalista thing was in a way, similar to how they handle Yas' double-crit chance. 10% damage down on crits. It's actually pretty noticeable.

Sniperkaj2 votes

I agree, i find Ziggs funny to play every once in a while, tossin' bombs around giggling like a maniac. He is not in a good spot now however.

However, a nice buff to Ziggs would be welcome. It is very nice to have a very safe midlaner, especially if u know u are against a very good player. You might get outfarmed by 10-20, but you can avoid dying and be very useful later on. This is also very useful for non-Main mids and gives a safe blind-pick. It might be a bit boring to go against a safe champ, but honestly, not every lane needs to be kills constantly (this also increases snowball heavily), and a strong champion that can stall the game a bit might suit the community's wishes.....

DrCyanide1 votes

I wonder if the builds for Ziggs and his playstyle just need to change. They buffed his passive damage against towers and he's got great waveclear, right? Maybe instead of keeping him mid he should try and split push instead. I'm honestly wondering if a Nashor's might be a good idea for him.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I've had some luck with the AP tank buster build. item 3165 item 3020 item 3151 item 3116 item 3100 item 3157

His low cooldowns with rylais make him impossible to catch, and the burn from liandries makes his poke more potent. You lose your burst though.

TotalJerk1 votes

Ziggs is basically poke, counter engage, and cleaning up. Less of that holding the wave back forever bullshit people used to abuse, but you can still do it to a lesser extent.

TotalJerk1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EhaENsLi,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-08T21:49:40.590+0000)

His ult has a 120 second cooldown at all ranks. Doesn't that seem a bit ridiculous? I get that it has huge range, but it's also incredibly easy to dodge, and their reasoning for it was that Ziggs players were using the ult to clear waves in other lanes then having it up for the next teamfight too soon.

This is a big part of why Ziggs is so problematic. Engaging on him is hard enough between W and E,his Q also allows him to farm from a super safe distance. That combined with him using ults means he can clear 2 lanes from so far away that he's impossible to stop. The cooldown on a spell like that combined with a kit like Ziggs' pretty much HAS to be high

A good Ziggs is super hard to close out the game against because he can stall for ages, zone you from engaging on him, AND disengage if once you get there. Since I started playing Ziggs a couple months ago I've noticed that with barrier I average around 0-2 deaths per game, and those are usually more a result of me making critical mistakes than the opponent actually outplaying me.

The Bearded Bard1 votes

So like, engage on him, make him blow his W, then abuse the 26 second cooldown that it's on. It's really not as hard as people make it out to be.

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

maybe because he is the only poke mage that has mobility,but i agree his ult cd is just so long at all ranks while champions who also have long range ults like lux can have a lower cd

The Bearded Bard1 votes

... He has one ability that let's him create distance for himself, he can't use it to go over every wall, and using it to gap close rarely ever works. On top of that, the cooldown on it starts at 26 seconds and goes down to 18 seconds with 5 points in it (lvl 18).

Saying that Ziggs has mobility is really not a fair statement.

Zilean is a poke mage with mobility.

Koldheartedjsp1 votes

ziggs is just one of those champions that when he's good, nobody is happy other than the people playing ziggs.

Just imagine if champs like vlad, yorick, olaf, shaco, eve were really good and in most of the games

it'd be hell and wouldn't be fun.

Maybe I'm wrong but imo this is a big reason why

The Bearded Bard1 votes

I dunno, I don't think Vlad or Olaf are in a bad spot in the moment. And I wouldn't mind Shaco being good at all considering he's my most played champ and I actually know how to play against him.

I don't find Illaoi or Zed to be fun to play against, yet here they are.

Inting Pillow1 votes

lol i made a post like this, i deleted it, nearly no one gives a crap about Ziggs

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