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I feel like stats in this game have become an inconsistent mess

HateDaddy··14 votes·777 views

And perhaps during the preseason, maybe you should address this.

What I mean is having items that reduce a stat that recipes put you over - the infamous spirit visage giving less HP than kindlegem/cowl. This isn't the only example though. You have items that have no CDR in their recipes but upon completion, you randomly get CDR (adaptive helm) or recipes with only one CDR item upgrading into an item that gives double the CDR value of the recipes (Morellos). The overabduance of CDR in general is a perfect illustration of this mess.

Stat inefficiency feels like shit no matter how you slice it. And some of this can't be helped when you have so many things happening during a season, especially the last 2 1/2 seasons where class reworks have taken place and large itemization changes have accompanied them. But can we address this problem this offseason for itemization and the stats that come with them to consistently make sense? Again, I see how these things slip through the cracks but this is a messy experience that nobody enjoys. It can easily be cleaned up by slightly reducing and increasing stats to even things out and possible compensations should be made for potential balance issues that may ensue. Thanks.

-a concerned 75% CDR Nasus main

9 Comments

GrievousFetus2 votes

I think Riot might actually have created this CDR oversaturation (one of the only stats with an easily attainable hard cap that always comes in multiples of 10%) specifically to prevent players from building certain item combinations together. You bought Triforce and frozen heart? Well then you aren't allowed to buy an HP+MR item unless you want to suffer an innefficency penalty.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

I think Riot might actually have created this CDR oversaturation (one of the only stats with an easily attainable hard cap that always comes in multiples of 10%) specifically to prevent players from building certain item combinations together. You bought Triforce and frozen heart? Well then you aren't allowed to buy an HP+MR item unless you want to suffer an innefficency penalty.

Why? How many champions actually want this combination of items outside of the CDR cap to begin with? It's not as if someone building FH/trinity is an abusive case of itemization pairing.

Teridax681 votes

I agree with this, and even if this were somehow a deliberate move to prevent some item pairings, Riot's been known to overreact to the mere idea of some mechanics and combinations appearing in-game, only for them to pose no real problem whatsoever when actually put to the test (e.g. an item with a dash on an active, on the grounds that it would break Annie, and yet here we are). I get that at least some support items may have tons of CDR just so that supports get to build something non-supporty in addition to their standard stuff (or, in practice, just a Locket of the Iron Solari), but you can't really abstract that to many more cases.

I also think there are some clear cases of CDR oversaturation, like Essence Reaver still providing 30% CDR after Trinity got its own buffed to 20%: the combo used to be AD Corki's wet dream, and was pretty much implemented just for him at the onset of the Marksman Update, now he can't build the two without wasting stats. It's also pretty easy to just hazard upon 40% CDR in your build without consciously trying to do so, and sometimes go over if you don't pay attention to the full stat list on the stuff you're buying (e.g. Skarner if you go Warrior -> TF -> TBC for an early damage start, and forget to go Cinderhulk instead).

YokoNomi2 votes

It has never not been a mess though. Hell, my first time playing this game involved myself as Garen with 5 sunfire's, winning games by quite literally just running around until people die.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

It has never not been a mess though. Hell, my first time playing this game involved myself as Garen with 5 sunfire's, winning games by quite literally just running around until people die.

Yeah but at least then, the game was relatively new and learning how to balance items and the game itself was a relatively foreign concept. By now, though they still are learning as you never truly stop learning, you'd feel like that should be cleaned up.

YokoNomi3 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but at least then, the game was relatively new and learning how to balance items and the game itself was a relatively foreign concept. By now, though they still are learning as you never truly stop learning, you'd feel like that should be cleaned up.

But the very intent of the company is to always be changing, to add and rebalance, add and rebalance. What works, what doesn't work. What could make the game interesting, and what needs to just go. The biggest problem with MOBA's is that statistics and preferential debates of what should or shouldn't be in the game butt heads so often, that the true definition of what would be considered as balanced for a game like this is non-existent.

This is even more so the point, when the entire intent of the past 3-4 seasons is to completely change the pace of the game. Everything that had once worked, barely work, or just don't work, and needs to be changed/fixed/redone. In fact, because of this, the most "balanced" thing about this game is what's new, because its original clean slate already allows it to fit what their current intention of the game would be.

Right now the game is a mess, for the sole reason that the core of the game has changed so often, nothing else statistically makes sense anymore, which effects preferential demands, which corrupts the idea of what is considered as balanced anymore. As I've mentioned before though, this has never not been the case. The game is ever changing, it's just how it is.

HateDaddy2 votes

{quoted}

But the very intent of the company is to always be changing, to add and rebalance, add and rebalance. What works, what doesn't work. What could make the game interesting, and what needs to just go. The biggest problem with MOBA's is that statistics and preferential debates of what should or shouldn't be in the game butt heads so often, that the true definition of what would be considered as balanced for a game like this is non-existent.

This is even more so the point, when the entire intent of the past 3-4 seasons is to completely change the pace of the game. Everything that had once worked, barely work, or just don't work, and needs to be changed/fixed/redone. In fact, because of this, the most "balanced" thing about this game is what's new, because its original clean slate already allows it to fit what their current intention of the game would be.

Right now the game is a mess, for the sole reason that the core of the game has changed so often, nothing else statistically makes sense anymore, which effects preferential demands, which corrupts the idea of what is considered as balanced anymore. As I've mentioned before though, this has never not been the case. The game is ever changing, it's just how it is.

I'm not disputing any of this but that doesn't mean you can't clean up nonsensical stats and arbitrary stats on items. It's been done in the past, like 5% and 15% CDR being removed from items to make CDR a cleaner stat to acquire. There's no reason it can't be done again.

Teridax682 votes

It's worth mentioning that, during that same time, Riot's official philosophy was that players could truly use stats and items to build as they wanted, which is why older champions almost all had hybrid AD/AP ratios on their kits. Nowadays, items and champions are so much more fine-tuned around each other that pretty much every release can only be built using one subset of stats, and tends to be harshly balanced if they get to build "unintended" stats, like health on Ekko or Lethality on Jhin. Effectively, stats have lost one of their core purposes: they used to be a means of allowing players to customize their champion as they wanted; now their sole use is essentially to just scale up a champion's power.

This is also why we're seeing stuff like CDR pop up willy-nilly on so many items, because stats like those are so desirable to everyone that it feels bad to not have good access to them. On top of that, every class update has sort of defeated the purpose of itemization in the first place -- we get items that offer a specific stat that is clearly meant to be built only by one class, and the moment another starts making use of it too, they become abusive and that messes up balance. Itemization as a general system doesn't really exist anymore, as most of it has been broken up into little islands for every subclass, offering the illusion of choice with little to no real personalized customization in practice. In the end, like practically every other customization system in League, itemization has ended up failing to provide true diversity of choice and play, and its stats have ended up being implemented to fit set values across a whole class, rather than fit any real niche of playstyle, which is why so many recipes don't really make sense anymore.

Personally, I feel like a lot of these stats could be pared down, as many are no-brainers on a whole class and so mainly represent a power spike that's unnecessary in a game that's already too snowbally. CDR in particular is a stat that basically everyone will want as long as it exists in itemization, so it's going to boil down to it being either present everywhere for every class (as is practically the case now), or completely absent. To a larger extent, I think itemization as a system might even require an overhaul, as with runes and masteries, but that's on an entirely different scope, and would likely merit another discussion.

Catastrop1 votes

{quoted}

And perhaps during the preseason, maybe you should address this.

You have items that have no CDR in their recipes but upon completion, you randomly get CDR (adaptive helm) or recipes with only one CDR item upgrading into an item that gives double the CDR value of the recipes (Morellos).

I'm not seeing the issue here. Pretty much every MOBA has this same thing going on. I agree that CDR itemization is bloated, but items gaining stats upon completion or doubling stat value isn't some new trend in this game(or any other for that matter).

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