So riot will nerf supports and junglers first but not adcs ?

option paralysis·Mar 2, 2018·110 votes·16,206 views

This is really sad. Going around the problem, not straight to it. Everyone gonna get nerfed, but hey don't nerf adcs. The main cause of this problem. Jungler camping bot cuz adc dmg is insane, supps protecting adcs cuz adc dmg is insane = nerf junglers and supps. hmmmmmm. Nerfing them won't make me not take 600 dmg per crit. Even when they nerf them somewhat, they get buffed immediately next patch or compensation buff in the same patch. Like holy shit. Imagine some other role having a 30% pick rate champ with over 50% win rate. Would get gutted. But nahh, adcs gotta get that immediate compensation. God forbid tristana doesn't get in every game.

219 Comments

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 3, 201840 votes

We've already said we're doing bottom lane work for midseason. ADCs will need to be included in some way or another.

AnonagonMar 3, 201822 votes

I'm sure everyone whose been paying attention is appreciative of the fact that you guys have confirmed that work will be done on the ADC class in midseason. However, it's incredibly frustrating to hear that such work will not come until midseason, even moreso that nothing specific about said work has been confirmed. The community has already come to a rough consensus of what's wrong with ADCs, primarily that their damage is simply too high, especially in burst, and that their items are either too cheap or too effective. And to a lot of people in the community, it seems like it would be an incredibly easy task to nerf ADCs in those areas. It's no surprise that people are frustrated that we will have to wait several patches for (potential) changes to ADC damage when Riot hasn't even acknowledged that ADC damage is a problem.

xelakerMar 3, 201816 votes

mid season. rofl. there's about 12 bazillion ways to alleviate the pains of league right now, but let's wait it out for the big change that'll turn the game inside out mid season.

Tin of sardinesMar 3, 20182 votes

did we have a mid season on patch 8.4??? I mean, some champions have seem considerable changes, and a lot of itens gotta rework, nerf, buff...

NaalithMar 3, 201855 votes

I want to understand, I really do. I usually jump to Riot's defense and thank you guys for posting on the forums as much as you do, but in this case it's been nearly a year of ADCs/Supports basically strangling the meta. To hear you're going to do something in 8.10 when bottom lane has been so frustrating for so long is disheartening. It's like last year when Ardent was a massive issue months in advance to Worlds but you still wouldn't nerf it until after. Sure, the work is going to be done eventually, but unlike other products League is being used at all times whether the work has been put in or not.

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 3, 201831 votes

Yep. I'm not asking anyone to pretend to not be frustrated. If you're frustrated, please keep telling us! It's important for us to know these things.

ADCs need adjustments, I agree. We're discussing the extent to which we may change things. We've talked changing their power curves, their base stats and stat growth, their item paths, their top end dps, individual problematic items, etc. We haven't settled on any particular direction, and so all I can talk is hopeful timeline at the moment.

And again, if that doesn't cut it, please continue to voice that in a way that is demonstrative of how you think the game ought to be change. There are tons of opinions out there as to the direction we ought to take the game on basically any topic we could choose, so keep those opinions coming. It's appreciated.

ModThe DjinnMar 3, 201822 votes

{quoted}...please continue to voice that in a way that is demonstrative of how you think the game ought to be change.

Randomly rambling from a tired Djinn. Advanced warning.

Initial thought if tasked to come up with thoughts (on the spot) is that an entire class of characters designed to scale heavily into the late-game is almost at odds with Riot's ideal game length, which tends to be just short enough that many of these characters have to come online early enough that it begins to feel problematic in longer games. Either they come on too early, or their potential late-game power has to sacrifice enough early power that they're super risky to have in a team (not ideal, given how important they are to current objective-taking), or they have a powerful enough early game that it makes their powerful late game too accessible.

It sort of makes me wonder about designs you could take to flatten ADC growth past an an initial 20-25 minute "spike" so that they come online as major powerhouses around a certain time but cease to become a non-linear-scaling menace in a game of linear scalering as the game progresses: perhaps gaining additional defenses or tank-busting capabilities rather than simply increasing their overall power against every member of the cast. The problem is that most ways I can think of to do that either suffer clarify-wise, make itemization less satisfying, or reverberate down the rest of the cast significantly.

Additionally, any solution like that would involve killing off most of the hypercarries, but you could then emphasize that identity on one or two by unlocking their scaling in much the same way that Veigar/Nasus do -- Tristana and Kog'Maw seem good candidates for that, given their history. Might be a benefit to be able to put back some of those delineations.

Sorry, just sort of throwing out thoughts as they occur. Not really sure of this myself, but it was interesting to write up. :)

SteelflameMar 3, 20185 votes

I actually thought of a fairly basic thing that covers the way to fix ADCs, and open up a rework of mage itemization to make tank busting a choice to opt into in the same step. Rework crit. Instead of crit being "double damage(or x2.5 damage)" rework it to just penetrate resistances. Lets say 75%. It applies to all damage dealt, not just auto attacks. IE, and a complementary "mage" IE increases the pen to 100% resist pen.

Now you may say "But this breaks mages!" Put crit itemization that a mage could access to have low/no AP. For example, Liandry's Torment would be 30 AP 20% crit. Main thing being that if you opt into heavy crit on a mage, you will definitely suffer on squishy killing from low AP values of having 3+ items have fairly low AP, but you'd get to cut through tanks better.

Compared to current crit, this is a nerf on targets with 125 armor or so, and increase that to 150ish with IE taken into account, but it does make it FAR better on someone stacking resist.

Boom, now ADC (and crit mages) are showing a dedication to tank busting at the exception of squishy busting. This also opens up certain aspects of currently ADC exclusive itemization to be attractive on mages that may quite enjoy the mechanics, such as Rapidfire Cannon for Twisted Fate or Shiv for a low waveclear mage.

Crit becomes less snowbally (an early crit in lane won't massively spike damage, only minorly boost it), makes crit attractive as a stat on many different types of champions, and helps deshackle ADC away from "Omni-burst" to "Good at killing tanks/objectives, but not bursting the rest of the team with the DPS required to kill a tank."

ModThe DjinnMar 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

I actually thought of a fairly basic thing that covers the way to fix ADCs, and open up a rework of mage itemization to make tank busting a choice to opt into in the same step. Rework crit. Instead of crit being "double damage(or x2.5 damage)" rework it to just penetrate resistances. Lets say 75%. It applies to all damage dealt, not just auto attacks. IE, and a complementary "mage" IE increases the pen to 100% resist pen.

The problem here is that this has huge itemization ramifications across every role and removes a lot of the satisfaction building crit gives. I'm not sure it's a great fix to the problem, since it makes defenses feel worthless (everyone can easily opt into penetration options) while also perhaps flattening ADC vs. Squishy damage too much.

Done25Mar 3, 20187 votes

I can't help but feel ADCs need to pull away from 90% of their damage being based auto attack critting and more about needing to use their kits. So long as the ADC is a walking stat stick there will always be 1~3 "best" ADCS. They need to be individualized via their kits.

I think Ashe is a good example with how her Crit hits increase the power of her slows. She's rewarded for building crit, but in a way that expresses her kit.

Quinn is another good example. I think her passive could be reworked to: Scale off AD, have the ability to critically strike with her attack, and CD faster depending on how much attack speed she has. This rewards her for proper management of her minigame.

Speaking of minigame, how about that MF Q crit? It takes skill to pull off, but feels immensely satisfying to land a juicy Q crit on an enemy champ. Furthermore Riot could increase the Crit ratio on her Ult from 20/30% to 50/75% to let her scale into the late game that way as well.

Oh, and armor penetration needs to go die in a fire. It has never been a healthy mechanic and never will be. This can be seen with how it has been reworked not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES by now. You want assassins to burst squishy targets? Give them better AD ratios on their abilities. You want to increase their damage to champions specifically to keep wave clear in check? Make it so that Lethality instead reads: "Deals +10% more damage to champions".

Especially given with how well Armor Pen. synergies with the ADC item Last Whisper. What's the counter to Lethality? Building Armor. What's the counter to Armor? Last Whisper. What's the counter to Leathality+Last Whisper? Exploding them before they can explode you. Does no one else see this as a problem?

xJLx MCHammerMar 3, 201854 votes

{quoted}

Yep. I'm not asking anyone to pretend to not be frustrated. If you're frustrated, please keep telling us! It's important for us to know these things.

ADCs need adjustments, I agree. We're discussing the extent to which we may change things. We've talked changing their power curves, their base stats and stat growth, their item paths, their top end dps, individual problematic items, etc. We haven't settled on any particular direction, and so all I can talk is hopeful timeline at the moment.

And again, if that doesn't cut it, please continue to voice that in a way that is demonstrative of how you think the game ought to be change. There are tons of opinions out there as to the direction we ought to take the game on basically any topic we could choose, so keep those opinions coming. It's appreciated.

You KEEP saying this. You hear the player base telling you ADC has been a problem for some time now

They are doing BURST damage for over 2 years now. It's gotten worse despite you (or others) saying things like "We agree, we will look into it", the only thing that's been happening is the opposite. You released items like Ardent Censor that massively benefited the ADC role. ADC"s were running around as a tanks in front line doing 600+ Crits with 3 items.

Over the course of the past 2-3 years you managed to do

ADC now spike better and earlier than some mages despite outscaling them in damage late game.
ADC are in every game
You wont shave any power from their role. So champions like Janna only get stronger because they empower broken or overpowered classes
You managed to sneak ADC itemization buffs in a tank rework. How? You buffed all but 1 item (BOTRK) item

Congrats! You managed to make a role that should be sustained damage over time to burst damage that is also reliable . Mages meanwhile now fit sustain damage over time much better

10/10

at the pace you move to address ADC problem, I guess another 4 years before you take any action.

CyberBaltMar 3, 201823 votes

I mean they already said they're going to look at it in midseason, you're kind of beating a dead horse. What's the point in getting mad now? It would be understandable if Riot was still radio silent when it came to ADCs but they've been pretty clear at this point that they agree the class needs changes. Just be patient a while longer.

SuperLuigiLXIVMar 3, 201812 votes

Because they've been ignoring the problem for over a year now. Why the hell would I believe them at this point?

CyberBaltMar 3, 20188 votes

They did not promise an ADC update last year. They have now.

LegendmakerGTXMar 3, 20186 votes

Cyber they actually talked about ADC in the past saying they will balance them...Balance their lazy balance team is more like it or rework them because they clearly slept on this issue. No role should be able to Lifesteal+crit+attack speed+range all in one. You can say Yi does those but he isn't range and he can actually get CC while ADC gets a support who shield+ heal and CC enemy off them.

SuperLuigiLXIVMar 3, 201820 votes

Oh, so sure of that, are you...?

We'll toss that aside for a bit, true or not.

They DID promise a Yorick rework, that then got delayed by YEARS.

They promised an Aatrox rework, and that just keeps getting pushed back in favor of other champions.

They claimed they would be giving Janna nerfs, and then in defiance of the PBE testers warning them, they released her kit in a massively broken state that they had to hotfix shortly afterward due to the sheer absurdity of it.

In spite of that madness, they repeated their mistake with Galio, which shows that they simply do not learn.

They said they heard us and would try to be more diverse with skins, and yet Lux was given a skin in defiance of the fact that she got an ultimate skin only a year prior, Yi was handed multiple skins, Janna was given a SWORD-THEMED SKIN that would have been a FAR better fit for Shen, who had gone much longer without a skin, Fiora was given that SAME sword-themed skin over Shen, even though it was Ionia-based and Fiora is DEMACIAN (and again Shen has waited far longer for a skin), Yorick's first new skin in damn near five years was underwhelming as hell...

And while we're on the subject of Shen, his update was halfassed and didn't even update his voice with the rest of him. Instead, he was tossed to the wayside so Riot could spend more time updating their poster boy Ryze. For the second time.

Riot's word has about as much value as a politician's. Maybe if they actually had the work ethic to finish the things they start and to follow through with the things they say, I'd trust them.

But they don't.

So while I'll be happy if they do finally do something? It doesn't mean I'll trust their word at any point before it happens.

Nor does it excuse that it hasn't already been done.

DisembarkMar 3, 20187 votes

Work ethic lol. You realize this is a company making money, not a group project in school?

They will delay a Yorick rework because as much as it was memed, no one cared about that champion and they had more pressing matters. They couldn’t dedicate the resources for a full VGU.

Hell, he’s still super unpopular and they did an AMAZING job with the rework

ModAcademy KaynMar 3, 201811 votes

They will delay a Yorick rework because as much as it was memed, no one cared about that champion and they had more pressing matters.

To add/counter this, either one cause I'm not really sure, a main reason the Yorick update got delayed is because they just couldn't find a path to go down with. Ideas where coming short/the technology wasn't there/themes weren't sticking together, there's a bunch more problems with the creative process that can delay things than people can expect.

If you read Repertoir's statement above, it's the same thing. They don't know the direction to go with.

CyberBaltMar 3, 20182 votes

Well my point is, they never gave a specific TIME they would look at adcs. Before, they just gave it in vague general terms like "oh we want to look at adcs eventually but not sure when." This time they are promising a specific TIME when they will do it (midseason, probably patch 8.10), so I think there's more reason to be hopeful that they'll actually carry it out.

MuffledGarbageMar 4, 20183 votes

Riot kept saying the same thing about Ardent for about a year though. "We'll nerf it next patch, don't worry"

I wouldn't be so trusting of Riot if I were you...

Beacon AcademyMar 3, 20189 votes

Do you remember the season of Dynamic queue and the solo queue that was promised at the start of said season? How good was their word then?

GayFluffyUnicornMar 3, 20188 votes

Riot has been saying a lot the past years and done the opposite. Them saying anything means jackshit.

MuffledGarbageMar 4, 20183 votes

Waiting didn't work when Ardent Censor took over an entire season and Riot said "wait for worlds because maybe there will be a way to counter it"

After worlds Riot went "Ok so it did need nerfs like all of the 1000000000000s of people told us that it did so here's an actual, real nerf"

Then Riot isn't doing anything about leaving an entire rune-tree to ADCs but then deciding ALSO that they "Don't want to lock champions into one rune/playstyle"

Riot's been pushing back the ADC nerfs for a long time and asked us to wait

It's obvious that Riot isn't going to fix the ADCs for another 3 years and even then Riot's just gonna compensate-buff the ADCs back into being overpowered

SpoofghoulMar 4, 20182 votes

What are you expecting exactly?

When Riot addresses problems at the pace of a dead horse

Spacesuit SpiffMar 3, 20182 votes

As much as I agree, we do need them to find a solution they like. Otherwise they'll just give some massive "compensation" half a patch later and power will keep on creepin

RiotRiotRepertoirMar 3, 201812 votes

You KEEP saying this.

Do I? Do we? I feel like the impression is that we've been silent on the topic.

ProvengreilMar 3, 201812 votes

it's more that you say" we noticed", often months late, to every issue that arises. Ardent Censer issues started in...what, march or april maybe? that lasted through worlds. Madreds razor + Spirit stone was infinite resources while in jungle, lasted at least a year in popularity. League of Warmogs and Heart of Gold also come to mind, as does any period more than 2 patches long long that "metagolem" builds exist(champion agnostic 6-item top builds for those unfamiliar). It doesn't help when other things are horrible to play against or abusive to the game and get gutted more or less immediately, often things that disturb what the ADCs or other perceived favorites were doing and make them feel less awesome(See bot lane Mordekaiser, red smite and warwick).

So yes, silence followed by a sudden realization that something's been wrong for 8 months on the "creator's pets" is pretty normal from our end.

CosnirakMar 4, 20182 votes

For at least a few months if not more a lot of Rioters have been making it clear that they read the boards and are listening to feedback even though they often don't respond. But if Riot has been listening so well for all this time why no response, no changes, nothing in regards to ADCs till just now?

EDIT: To be clear, it's not that I think Riot will do nothing. I think Riot will either take way too long to do too little or Riot disagrees about the problem and/or solution and will make changes that will make me sad instead of what I think should happen.

xJLx MCHammerMar 4, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Do I? Do we? I feel like the impression is that we've been silent on the topic.

You, as in Riot. As I assume the company has many differing opinions and voices but in the end there is a general direction that the game is going towards

I've seen Riot post in the past the problematic itemization of crit, ADC's doing burst damage, how AP champions had their burst lowered and now feel more sustained than ADC's. (This is my summary and I'm not quoting anyone directly). Riot said they would betackle the Bot lane "problem" in pre-season

So in a way, I've heard this before from Riot. You ackoledge a problem with ADC's and you barely do anything.

WiegrafOfValorMar 3, 20186 votes

Repertoir, I believe it's unhealthy for the game to have ADCs to be the tank buster role.

This job fits way better with Bruisers and Juggernaughts, having your squishy carry be the one with most DPS and the tank killer makes it impossible to balance. Please just think about it, discuss this internally, is all I'm asking.

Adcs are suppose to have constant dps, but to destroy tanks they need so much steroids and items that they just burst everything that don't have 3k HP with +200AR.

I really believe if you shift the job of dealing with tanks to bruisers and make more items like item 3036 item 3071 item 3153 but tailored for bruisers instead of ADCs, you and your team will have a easier time balancing the game and how much damage ADCs can deal.

HellioningMar 3, 20182 votes

So what do ADCs do?

WiegrafOfValorMar 3, 20181 votes

The main source of constant DPS? Suitable to take objectives and towers? Do you need to be that and the tank killer?

HellioningMar 3, 20182 votes

How satisfying would it be to play as 'the guy that takes towers'? League is a PvP game, and declaring that ADCs should only be focused on PvE objectives runs counter to that.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 3, 20188 votes

I know you won't see this but damn. Every time I see you post something people reply in such an insanely rude and entitled manner. Coming from years of customer service background, mad respect to you for always replying with a cool head. I hate this game sometimes but it's just too addicting to quit. I totally get that if you change one thing, it is going to affect another thing in ways that might even be impossible to predict. So just kudos to you dood.

Douglas FunnieMar 3, 20183 votes

All of this should have been addressed during Pre-Season 8. Why the hell does it take so long for the "Balance Team" to underfkingstand the issues and solving them? You're telling me you guys are still trying to figure out what to do for Mid-Season 8? WOW!

Everyone including LCS casters who kiss Riot's paychecks complained about Zoe and her damage, as well as the RNG bullshit. Yet, you guys did nothing for 4+ months... 4 damn months?

Come on, man. This "Balance" process is a complete joke, and you know it!

What Is SmiteMar 3, 20182 votes

To be fair I think ADC's need to return to being a niche to the team rather than the mandatory staple. What I mean to say is that work needs to be done so that ADC's fulfill their niches like they used to: Caitlyn in poke comps, Sivir in a Blitzkrieg comp, MF in a super Wombo-Combo team, etc.

AbibyamaMar 3, 20182 votes

I mean isn’t that the case already? Aside from the top Marksmens like Kog’Maw who used have an entire team comp dedicated to protecting him and now he basically fits into any comp

option paralysisMar 3, 201812 votes

{quoted}

We've already said we're doing bottom lane work for midseason. ADCs will need to be included in some way or another.

yeah cool, alright. but adcs are a problem for literally a year now. and you need till mid season to work on them ? that's just disappointing.

SangreDeNocheMar 3, 20184 votes

{quoted}

We've already said we're doing bottom lane work for midseason. ADCs will need to be included in some way or another.

The main problem is ALWAYS months down the line after riot spends the same amount or longer denying or neglecting to acknowledge there even is a problem. Then when the changes hit live it's suddenly "we realized x is doing too well and we're looking to bring them back in line." Up until then though we have to put up with backwards logic like "paper is beating scissors when it should be the opposite so we're looking to nerf rock." It doesn't make any sense but that's all the information we'll get until again... Months later when riot actually acknowledges the issue by correcting it to any extent.

notmebuthimMar 3, 20181 votes

when are the GP buffs coming in? Q'ing 4 times and being oom is pretty sick

Corrupt BlissMar 3, 20188 votes

Fuck GP.

GodlyBaneMar 2, 201820 votes

1k dmg per crit vs trist with gathering storm and 2.00 atk speed (no joke)

Unreformed ShacoMar 2, 201820 votes

http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Meddler

Enough said.

AirKingNeoMar 3, 201812 votes

He's a support player. Nerfing his own class would be opposite of bias.

LankPantsMar 3, 201813 votes

Not so much in S8. He has 27x more games on ADC than support this season. There are legitimate reasons for this, he could be playing ADC to try to evaluate problems with the class at current, but arguing he's playing support at the moment is incorrect.

AirKingNeoMar 3, 20187 votes

I said he's a support player, as in his main class. Never did I claim he played it currently, but I stated it was his main role.

ModWulf HelhammerMar 3, 201820 votes

Because ADCs on their own as a class aren't the problem. There may a few outliers, but the class overall is fine.

What the problem is is junglers and supports propping up their early game making it impossible to kill said ADCs, allowing them to just steamroll.

If you nerf the class, then what happens is that they now become entirely useless, tanks get even more dominant, and the game is in a worse state.

Sunfire SandalsMar 3, 201812 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EeVEsMNI,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2018-03-03T00:27:16.519+0000)

Because ADCs on their own as a class aren't the problem. There may a few outliers, but the class overall is fine.

What the problem is is junglers and supports propping up their early game making it impossible to kill said ADCs, allowing them to just steamroll.

If you nerf the class, then what happens is that they now become entirely useless, tanks get even more dominant, and the game is in a worse state.

Or the game returns to the glory days where the mid player, usually a mage, was the carry!

ModWulf HelhammerMar 3, 20189 votes

Have fun killing the tank with burst damage. *Laughs in item 3194 item 3083 item 3065 *

Feel ApathyMar 2, 20189 votes

600? Is that at minute 10 or 12?

On a more serious note:

item 3139 item 3047 item 3091 item 3026 nerf for ADCs needed. Shielding and healing is **twice **as effective on someone with a low health bar and high resistances.