Unpopular opinion: yes healing is too good right now, but so is access to practically unlimited mana

HateDaddy··50 votes·14,803 views

All you have to do is run into inspiration. It does not matter if it’s your primary or secondary tree. If it’s your primary tree, you get to use glacial to ensure you never miss spells or klepto (which is especially abusive top lane) and farm gold and rng items. Then you can go into a secondary and take whatever you need to top damage off.

Mana champions like Neeko, Ryze, gangplank, pantheon, etc. run into inspiration and are able to click on you endlessly and use this capacity empower their mana pool to outlast your health pool. This is especially frustrating when you consider mana costs are intended weaknesses for some of these champions, and yet they really do not have that weakness. Anyone who complains about going out of mana is a meme, because you have made that impossible for poke champions and this negatively impacts all lanes.

Mana costs do not need to be tuned, access to free mana needs to be removed. In turn, champions with steep mana costs can then have their kits looked at. The reality is that every time you make anything with the capacity to lane in top remotely strong, they can run inspiration and abuse the ever loving shit out of melee characters or characters with less range than themselves. You can welcome Swain and Cass to that crew next patch.

I am of the opinion that the inspiration needs to be changed significantly. Champions should get sustain - both mana and HP - as a means of interaction, not just chugging consumables that come free. Klepto is another abusable keystone that rewards lane bullies for being lane bullies (looking at Kennen). Glacial augment makes Ahri impossible to fuck up on - as if that wasn’t already true before. Does anyone even know what the other ones do? Something about a spellbook - actually that one is cool. The point is, people look at precision and even domination as problematic trees but the reality is that inspiration has been just as abusive but it’s been far more systemic.

Sustain doesn’t need to be gutted, it just needs to be made interactive and inspiration does not do that. Manaflow band is a great example of interaction into sustain, and that’s what inspiration needs to do more of. It should not exist to give lane bullies a pass on their mana costs, nor should it give weak early game champions a pass through their weak early game. If one single tree is granting this, then that tree is a major problem.

90 Comments

Ryujin No Sora25 votes

Mages are indirectly powercreeped to hell.

There is TOO MUCH cdr and mana accesibility without even a tiny bit of ABILITY POWER penalty.

In the past rushing the CDR cap or even going 30% cdr would cost you a fuck ton of Ability and or MR runes ( scaling cdr was a thing on runes back then or flat cdr ) so right now mages have the freedom of brainlessly throwing out 5-6 second rotations from LONG ranges with no penalty.

You will argue me KILL THEM WHEN THEIR CD'S ARE DOWN my counterargument is that unless i'm an equally long range mage i do not have the ability to effectively retaliate due to me having to reposition to dodge their spells ( whom usually oneshot me or any non tank/bruiser champ ) which means i have to put distance between us that by the time i close it again they will have around 1-2 seconds off their rotation to hit me again and the fight is always a 50-50 spam ( EXACTLY LIKE URF IS ) and it's extremenly toxic to deal with.

Mages atm are arguably the 3rd lowest skill class after ADCs and Supports while beeing blatantly overloaded with clear problems that are not addressed in favor of the powercreep meta. All cdr needs to be cut in half and mana providing runes need to be toned down by a LOT.

HateDaddy10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryujin No Sora,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Edwzw6K5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-06T20:11:58.627+0000)

Mages are indirectly powercreeped to hell.

There is TOO MUCH cdr and mana accesibility without even a tiny bit of ABILITY POWER penalty.

In the past rushing the CDR cap or even going 30% cdr would cost you a fuck ton of Ability and or MR runes ( scaling cdr was a thing on runes back then or flat cdr ) so right now mages have the freedom of brainlessly throwing out 5-6 second rotations from LONG ranges with no penalty.

You will argue me KILL THEM WHEN THEIR CD'S ARE DOWN my counterargument is that unless i'm an equally long range mage i do not have the ability to effectively retaliate due to me having to reposition to dodge their spells ( whom usually oneshot me or any non tank/bruiser champ ) which means i have to put distance between us that by the time i close it again they will have around 1-2 seconds off their rotation to hit me again and the fight is always a 50-50 spam ( EXACTLY LIKE URF IS ) and it's extremenly toxic to deal with.

Mages atm are arguably the 3rd lowest skill class after ADCs and Supports while beeing blatantly overloaded with clear problems that are not addressed in favor of the powercreep meta. All cdr needs to be cut in half and mana providing runes need to be toned down by a LOT.

You’re right

But boards are a bunch of mage and tank mains, so you’re just going to be drowned in downvotes. I wish you luck.

Ryujin No Sora9 votes

idc about downvotes. I've been here since Ekko release(on boards) i got like 3accounts banned from boards just for not agreeing with people ( in an aggressive tone ofc ).

If i wanted upvotes i can make posts that will get 100+ just by typing 3-4 sentences i speak truth. I was banned in the past for spamming nerf ekko posts ( release ekko ) nowadays when ekko is mentioned everyone says how broken his release was LOL.

Exin04 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ryujin No Sora,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Edwzw6K5,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-07-06T20:11:58.627+0000)

Mages are indirectly powercreeped to hell.

There is TOO MUCH cdr and mana accesibility without even a tiny bit of ABILITY POWER penalty.

In the past rushing the CDR cap or even going 30% cdr would cost you a fuck ton of Ability and or MR runes ( scaling cdr was a thing on runes back then or flat cdr ) so right now mages have the freedom of brainlessly throwing out 5-6 second rotations from LONG ranges with no penalty.

You will argue me KILL THEM WHEN THEIR CD'S ARE DOWN my counterargument is that unless i'm an equally long range mage i do not have the ability to effectively retaliate due to me having to reposition to dodge their spells ( whom usually oneshot me or any non tank/bruiser champ ) which means i have to put distance between us that by the time i close it again they will have around 1-2 seconds off their rotation to hit me again and the fight is always a 50-50 spam ( EXACTLY LIKE URF IS ) and it's extremenly toxic to deal with.

Mages atm are arguably the 3rd lowest skill class after ADCs and Supports while beeing blatantly overloaded with clear problems that are not addressed in favor of the powercreep meta. All cdr needs to be cut in half and mana providing runes need to be toned down by a LOT.

cdr is aboundant and easily to get you are right but its hardly only mage thing every one is abusing it with exeption of marksmens so chill out a look that riot slaped cdr everywhere - on supp items, on mana items, on tank items, on ad items,... just everywhere. I am for cuting cdr and even for cuting mana but then others champs and damage runes need cuts too.

3TWarrior10 votes

every class is out of control right now

Ragnaveil5 votes

including tanks, the dead class of toplane? EDIT: People who downvoted me, I want you to check the top played champions for toplane and tell me besides Tahm's unbalanced ass what other tank exists in top right now. Hint: There are none other than Tahm.

Ryujin No Sora2 votes

tanks are irrelevant as TANKS everything is a wannabe juggernaut atm.

Ragnaveil4 votes

Exactly. Yet people downvoted me thinking they are overpowered. The only tank that is overpowered right now is Tahm.

Bronzsuo1 votes

Because If you dislike playing vs Tahm right now, then why do you advocate for tank meta to come back? I rather have Juggernaut as tank than a Tank meta where everybody is another version of Tahm.

Yets42402 votes

How the fuck do you get that all tanks are like Tahm, when literally not a single other one is, and at no point, even during S5 Cinderhulk top hypertank META (which ironically favored Shyvana, who is a juggernaut over all actual tanks) aka the only tank META League has ever seen, were there tank lanebullies like Tahm. In fact, the juggernaut champions (weren't technically juggernauts yet, as the juggernaut patch 5.21 is what ended the hypertank meta anyway) were still the lane bullies in top lane, and the tanks won by being strong and useful in the lane (but not bullying or being oppressive) but then were simply vastly more useful in teamfights so they outscaled other picks (except for juggernauts). Tahm currently plays vastly more like a juggernaut than a tank anyway.

Bronzsuo2 votes

This is a footage of Tank Karma 2 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyVzs8IcYgo Tank weren't simply a strong team fight. Tank WERE the TEAM. You don't need an entire team to mow down a team without Tank. That is the Tank meta. Also, if your team have tank but that tank is not an OP shit tank like Maokai, you still get rekt. The argument during tank meta is: Why should I build as a glass cannon while the guy who has cheaper items, more hp/resistance,infinite tower dive potential, have CC in his kit doing a better job than me?

Fëalnort1 votes

The reason tahm is toxic to play against it not because he is a tank.

It is because he is a tank with a passif than nullify 80% of the dmg dealt to him, that has a second health bar, can slow , cc, poke your from distance without mana issues and can still deal 80% of your hp into one single burst at the slightest mistake.

Seems Fair, no ?

Bronzsuo2 votes

Let talk about other tank when they are in tank meta then: maokai Nuliffy all your dmg even better than Tahm while having a click stun, a slow and a root while also deal dmg. Tank Karma has a root, a shield and a heal base on missing health that is also better than Tahm all while also deal a lot of dmg. Tank Fizz, an invulnable mther fker with a lot of mobility who is also has enough burst to make adc not matter. Tank Ekko, one that have worse nullify than Tahm but make it up for a team wide stun and mobility that is impossible to escape from. Tahm wasn't that good as a tank compare to other tank during Tank meta, just imagine that. The tank meta literally remove both Adc and Assasin out of the game. the only exception are those who build specifically to counter Tank like Vayne and that's it. This is a footage of Tank Karma 2 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyVzs8IcYgo

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Tanks can usually not exist in a lane with conqueror in it, thus they are more present in the jungle.

You tell me, are the jungle tanks not frustrating or unbalanced in some way? If not, how can they compete with the remaining picks who are?

2 tanks in the top 10 for dia+, not a lot but they are definitely there.

But on that note, Tahm kench is not a tank, he is some ungodly abomination.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Sej is a bruiser in my opinion. She does a fuck ton of damage that tanks right now dont have in a consistent matter. She builds tank cuz her stuff scales with health so she doesnt need to buy damage at all.

BackdoorPrincess3 votes

Laughs in season 3 double nomicon, i do agree that it's too easy to hit cdr tho, what with 90% of users rushing ludens with probably the cdr sorc tree

Heos003 votes

Adc's and punish cd champions also suffer from this and i just made a post about it but i got completely ignored becausei made it at 3 a.m. lololl Literally at the start of the game you can have aprox. 6 cdr that increase in the mayority of the situations to 20% after first back and by the minute 20 or 25 you already have the 45% cdr, it's crazy, i just want the game back when i was in season 3-4 where cd's where longer and wasn't an oneshot, healing, mobility and damage fiesta everygame for every class, just some cheese picks were able to LITERALLY oneshot like malphite full ap but it was easy countereable.

Btw no, ADC isn't a low skill class, actually you have to have god-like positioning since the CDR and mobility its too much + no one likes to play real supports or peel someone but do i agree they do unhealthy damage (like any other class right now) and the adc's non crit build from the first seasons of the game was healthier tbh.

D357R0Y3R17 votes

I don't see how both are related

Healing is broken af atm, gunblade Ezreal is draintanking harder than Aatrox and forcing me to buy executioner, is this for real? Getting mana from inspiration isn't related to that.

HateDaddy7 votes

{quoted}

I don't see how both are related

Healing is broken af atm, gunblade Ezreal is draintanking harder than Aatrox and forcing me to buy executioner, is this for real? Getting mana from inspiration isn't related to that.

It’s only related in the sense that healing and mana regen are both aspects of sustain, and inspiration boosts both aspects of sustain. I’ve seen people not only complain about burst healing (as you are alluding to) but I’ve also seen people complain about lane healing - which I agree with, too. What I believe gets lost in that gripe is that the capacity to offset mana costs are coming with many of these benefits, too (primarily the inspiration tree).

D357R0Y3R3 votes

inspireation has nothing to do with healing after laning phase

which is right now the actual problem rather than healing during laning phase, at least I have more issues with the first one than the second one.

Botlane especially needs healing during lane, Riot keeps gutting sustain botlane but you need it else you just pick the highest range adc and auto win lane

Exin07 votes

{quoted}

inspireation has nothing to do with healing after laning phase

which is right now the actual problem rather than healing during laning phase, at least I have more issues with the first one than the second one.

Botlane especially needs healing during lane, Riot keeps gutting sustain botlane but you need it else you just pick the highest range adc and auto win lane

are we talking about healing or lifestealing? because healing doesent appear super strong but on other hand LS ...

Daddy Ants6 votes

{quoted}

are we talking about healing or lifestealing? because healing doesent appear super strong but on other hand LS ...

Healing as a whole is out of control.

Exin04 votes

{quoted}

Healing as a whole is out of control.

Then sorry we dont share same oppinion. I dont see healing abilities out of control but lifestealing

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

Then sorry we dont share same oppinion. I dont see healing abilities out of control but lifestealing

Get hit with an Ez Q with gunblade and you’ll see what we mean

Exin04 votes

{quoted}

Get hit with an Ez Q with gunblade and you’ll see what we mean

is this joke? pls read again what i wrote.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

is this joke? pls read again what i wrote.

I’m just making the distinction that gunblade isn’t lifesteal

Daddy Ants7 votes

{quoted}

I’m just making the distinction that gunblade isn’t lifesteal

Indeed

Gunblade, Death's Dance and Ravenous Hunter are Omnivamp.

Omnivamp heals from ability damage and True damage.

Lifesteal heals only from basic attacks.

3TWarrior5 votes

actually...life steal heals only from the PHYSICAL damage of auto attacks. Corki can't make much use of it as an example

AYAYA Support1 votes

That is absolutely incorrect. every corki main runs bloodline, as alacricity is not as strong on him, and it does in fact work on 100% of damage dealt by autos, both magical and psychical.

3TWarrior2 votes

edit: interesting, so i'll make some notes. I didn't know that about corki in particular, but it works differently depending upon case by case

here's from corki: Both components apply Life steal icon life steal even though on-hit magic damage does not usually interact with it; https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Corki

here's from the life steal wiki: Life steal does not work with True damage, for example Master YiSquare Master Yi's Wuju Style Wuju Style.

and

On-hit effects do not apply life steal.

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Life_steal

#it seems more complicated than either of us remember though, for an example, Twisted fate converts his entire auto attack into magic damage. The auto attack can be blocked by spell shields and it does not mention life steal

personally, a lot of this was better recorded in the past, such as when it mentioned how life steal worked, now life steal effects tend to only say "life steal"

Exin04 votes

{quoted}

I’m just making the distinction that gunblade isn’t lifesteal

yeah its listed as omnivamp what is just boosted lifesteal. why needlesly complicate things? i thing its commonly understand that damage converted into heal is lifesteal no matter if source is aa, abilities or everything and droping different fancy names will only make it muddy with no difference to the point that somebody is healing himself from doing damage.

HateDaddy3 votes

{quoted}

yeah its listed as omnivamp what is just boosted lifesteal. why needlesly complicate things? i thing its commonly understand that damage converted into heal is lifesteal no matter if source is aa, abilities or everything and droping different fancy names will only make it muddy with no difference to the point that somebody is healing himself from doing damage.

Because armor significantly reduces the effectiveness of lifesteal. Resists do not reduce healing on gunblade - its an incredibly important distinction to make. I would also argue lifesteal is not a problem, but healing items like gunblade and Deaths Dance are.

Exin04 votes

{quoted}

Because armor significantly reduces the effectiveness of lifesteal. Resists do not reduce healing on gunblade - its an incredibly important distinction to make. I would also argue lifesteal is not a problem, but healing items like gunblade and Deaths Dance are.

how do you know? there is nothig in description sayin that and healing from damage done suggest it healing from damage after reductions

Bugog5 votes

{quoted}

Get hit with an Ez Q with gunblade and you’ll see what we mean

I think he's saying that soraka, yuumi, and alistar with healing aren't the problem. The problem is damage champions with the various lifesteal mechanics on items.

Exin04 votes

{quoted}

I think he's saying that soraka, yuumi, and alistar with healing aren't the problem. The problem is damage champions with the various lifesteal mechanics on items.

exactly, my bad i dont write it exactly like you thinking it clear enough.

ZephyrDrake2 votes

{quoted}

Get hit with an Ez Q with gunblade and you’ll see what we mean

so... you are complaining about lifesteal. Good you have done nothing at all. You are complaining about what he is complaining about but want to put literally all forms of healing in the same boat for no reason whatsoever

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

so... you are complaining about lifesteal. Good you have done nothing at all. You are complaining about what he is complaining about but want to put literally all forms of healing in the same boat for no reason whatsoever

No, my post is related to mana. Mana and healing (in lane, which is what I’m complaining about) tend to be linked.

Troll for Trump7 votes

Healing's only out of control because damage is out of control

Daddy Ants3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ðownright Darius,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Edwzw6K5,comment-id=000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2019-07-06T22:56:47.196+0000)

Healing's only out of control because damage is out of control

I agree completely.

GinoSoldier5 votes

{quoted}

inspireation has nothing to do with healing after laning phase

which is right now the actual problem rather than healing during laning phase, at least I have more issues with the first one than the second one.

Botlane especially needs healing during lane, Riot keeps gutting sustain botlane but you need it else you just pick the highest range adc and auto win lane

Answer is simple. Nerf lifesteal and self-heal runes, buff support kit healing so they're actually relevant past 15 minutes.

ModAcademy Kayn14 votes

I really don't like Dark-Seal Corrupting pot. I was firmly against Crystalline Pot back when it was in the game, and I firmly disliked Corrupting pot when it came in to, but it wasn't that common back then. Now, it's the same damn thing I keep seeing everywhere, and I'm so sick of it. Cause who needs to care about making effective trades when you can just heal off all the damage and get mana back.

Verxint6 votes

I hate corrupting pot, I don't know what it was intended for but right now it's used as "Constantly fight for the first 3 levels and literally win even if you lose"

ihateyouallmuted6 votes

it neutralizes champions who rely on their sustain as their leverage in lane, and unlocks champions who are typically gated early by mana. corrupt bad

Lystrates7 votes

I came here thinking I was going to read something about Sona Soraka Yuumi Nami and in the back of my head thinking "who on earth thinks these champions are a problem and why?"

Yes, lifesteal is very strong. Hearlers are not.

hoganftw7 votes

Mana is an artificial concept these days. It matters for like the first five levels of the game before you just never run out of it. All that really matters is cooldowns.

Ragnaveil3 votes

which have been powercrept. CDR out the ass everywhere.

Daddy Ants2 votes

{quoted}

which have been powercrept. CDR out the ass everywhere.

item 3802 - 20% CDR for 1,300 gold.

If an AD champion wants 20% CDR they have to finish an Essence Reaver or Black Cleaver.

Ragnaveil2 votes

Or be like Riven and buy Kindle Warhammer and deal as much damage with the same uptime as if she had BC.

Schenix5 votes

It's not that unpopular, and if it is, it isn't unnoticed. Just touched poorly.

item 3165 Morellonomicon was changed because it provided too much for mages as an early buy, but somehow the reason for changing it was lost in translation and we got item 3285 Ludens / item 3802 Lost Chapter which made the concept null. Although Morellos change gave it a good identity, it's old model was replaced with something similar when it was acknowledged that the prior design was not healthy.

item 2004 Mana pots were removed because champions could access high power spells or harass more than they should to sustain or bully, but then we got item 2033 Corrupting Potion.

Various bot laners and supports got mana cost nerfs alongside other changes so they wouldn't harass so hard / sustain and remain farming for extended periods of time, but then we got item 3508 Essence Reaver (instead of a reworked item 3042 Muramana).

Nothing sticks to the philosophy of why it was slated for change to begin with. Part of that can be attributed to the nature of League being in a constant evolution of meta, but class updates and philosophy intended to target a class, should be consistent to rectify the dynamics for that class and then balance around it.


Personally, I don't care about the easy cap to CDR on mana champions, but if you're spamming abilities because of it and your mana is still facilitating that kind of gameplay without the drawback of running out of mana -- THEN there is an overarching issue I'm hit with on a design level.

i.e. -- if Syndra Syndra rushed a item 3285 Ludens for damage, I don't see why she should ALSO be able to spam the hell out of all her abilities forever to abuse the investment in damage and negate the players own consequence by a fair amount for missing or to stay in lane for prolonged periods of time. However, if you built a item 3040 Seraphs [not that you would on most mages because Ludens exists], I have no issue that you can keep up casting for reduced damage in comparison.

Note that this has nothing to do with Syndras state of balance or current meta choices. We do this with ADC's and their item 3031 crit, I don't see why mages can't receive a larger niche product combination for their varied items that already exist. It also opens the area for expanding niches with the items.

There's also a problem to run into there though, and it's that pro play and high elo will still donate item 1027 blue buff to mid rather often -- so whichever laner doesn't have a nice jungler or some circumstance where it couldn't happen like counterjungling or steal, that mid laner is drastically behind and is struggling to remain in lane. So now you have to decide whether to keep it as is and consider it just an objective to fight over, or change it to avoid the massive impact it can have on lane dynamics (or nerf its effect on people without summoner 11 smite). I advocate for keeping it as is, but still needs to be considered.

Overall, the philosophy to carve out items for meaningful choices has fallen rather flat.

Exin05 votes

Personally, I don't care about the easy cap to CDR, but if you're spamming abilities because of it and your mana is still facilitating that kind of gameplay without the drawback of running out of mana -- THEN there is an overarching issue I'm hit with.

i would like to point that cdr inst sole problem of mages and while i agree to put on mages mana breakes there are other champions going full cdr and without option slow them down by mana costs for example riven or thresh caping just from his core items, etc. they need to be toned down too. Also i would like to say that stacking crazy amount of attack speed is same problem as caping cdr for casters.

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