@Riot @GhostCrawler @Meddler @Whoever, can we talk about keystones and how uninteresting they are

HateDaddy·Sep 7, 2016·70 votes·2,128 views

And how they'd warped and distorted balance this entire season.

Warlords META (where and were perma banned) TLD Meta (where you did a fuck ton of damage no matter what you built) Grasp top lane META (where every bruiser or tank built and did a fuck ton of damage) Fervor META (Where everyone builds with it and does a fuck ton of damage)

The game has become uninteresting on so many fronts because of this. The entire meta is dictated by who can abuse the most broken Keystone at that moment. In fairness, I don't feel keystones are far off the mark of what they're probably intended to be but I'd still argue they are too powerful and warp game balance way too much. Shit needs to be fixed or removed tbh.

48 Comments

SpoofghoulSep 7, 201636 votes

keystones suck

they are all way too niche so we don't even have choice like rito promised

they dont change the way you play like rito promised

they fucked up balance

its 300% fail

RebonackSep 7, 201619 votes

{quoted}

keystones suck

they are all way too niche so we don't even have choice like rito promised

they dont change the way you play like rito promised

they fucked up balance

its 300% fail

This is pretty much it.

The Keystones need to be designed in such a way that every single one of them should be attractive in some way to most of the cast. They're FAR too specialized to do their respective jobs.

doubleguacSep 8, 20163 votes

I think it's unrealistic to expect every single mastery to be attractive to every single champion.

At the moment, there are at least two that are probably somewhat attractive to most champions. That's not too bad.

Really, my only problem with keystones is that they created so much damage creep. You have fervor adding like, what, 100 damage per auto attack late game? And for a while, even the most popular tank keystone was damage oriented (grasp).

Keystones are why "tanky assassins" are so damn popular this season. Hell, remember the beginning of the season where even ADCs were building steraks and maw every game?

UTIDAWASep 8, 20161 votes

The steraks/maw build was more of a problem with the items themselves and not the keystones entirely. They procced at similiar times and provided similiar buffs. Maw provided extra survivability with a magic shield and bonus LS and SV and steraks provided a health shield that gave you and extra 25% base ad. So on top of your bonus life steal from maw you also got more damage to heal from with your steraks. However, we cant forget that warlords did also make this even more of a problem by granting a second source of life steal and spell vamp at around the same time as both items.

tooomineSep 8, 20162 votes

would like to see a keystone that allows you to have double wards out on the map, 2 and 6 respectively.

HammerpriestSep 8, 20161 votes

Ah the ol' Ward bitch keystone argument. "FUKN TRSH SUP. ONLY HAS 3 WARDS!"

"BUT I'M SONA/ANNIE/KARMA/BRAND! I NEED OTHER KEYSTONES!"

"FUK U SCRUB. BUY MORE WARDS. REPORTED."

I hope this never happens.

Sahn UzalSep 7, 201617 votes

My personal opinions:

Fervor shouldn't just give a flat amount, you should get it to ENHANCE your AD itemisation, not to replace it.

Grasp of the undying should JUST heal you, and lose it's damage. The % heal can scale with level to prevent free sustain issues.

those are my main issues.

Photos of GhostsSep 8, 20162 votes

Or at least swap around the damage and heal %

CrazedPorcupineSep 7, 201610 votes

OH let's not forget the Sustain meta during pre-season with Soraka Sona being perma-banned because Windspeakers was batshit OP.

Auz the RipperSep 8, 20163 votes

that was more because grievous wound was changed to only affect self-heals. Windspeakers definitely didn't help though.

RalanrSep 7, 20169 votes

Personally I don't think TLD should exist. It has proven to be too powerful as a generalist option. Generalist options are supposed to be weaker but more easily applied.

It's as if Bards stop being jack of all trades and became masters of all. Ridiculous.

RebonackSep 7, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Personally I don't think TLD should exist. It has proven to be too powerful as a generalist option. Generalist options are supposed to be weaker but more easily applied.

It's as if Bards stop being jack of all trades and became masters of all. Ridiculous.

If TLD were swapped out to single target and Deathfire did full damage in AoE it would make it pretty clear what both of them are for. Honestly, I think it would be interesting if Deathfire triggered on basic attacks as well. It would give auto-attackers an actual alternative to Fervor.

RalanrSep 7, 201626 votes

Personally I don't think we should have just straight damage keystones. We should have keystones that have interesting ways of applying damage (like how grasp worked) or reward you with something other than damage for doing a certain amount (Stormraiders).

Keystones shouldn't reward more damage for doing damage IMO.

Sona x RubickSep 8, 20168 votes

delete masteries

or bring back old masteries

there is nothing to discuss about

SteelMankindSep 9, 20161 votes

I would say there is, since I doubt I'm the only one who prefers the new masteries.

InTheorySep 8, 20168 votes

[deleted]

SteelMankindSep 8, 20162 votes

My experience is that the champions who only have one viable keystone are in the minority. The only ones I can think of are midlaners who don't have good synergy with Deathfire Touch, and so take Thunderlords every game (and even plenty of those could got Stormraiders, but they don't since they're such damage -focused characters).

tXQbsPrjN5Sep 7, 20167 votes

It's cause all of the masteries are boring straight stat buffs. fervor gives more damage (lol 3 BF swords worth). tld gives more damage. strength of ages gives more hp. dft gives more damage. wow so interesting. i'm totally gonna change the way i play the game oh wait no i'm not.

btw item 3078 being broken is a symptom of the much bigger problem of riot tacking on cdr onto every item in the game in an attempt to make the game as flashy as possible

too bad you're never gonna get a rioter to talk about this mess cause it's exactly that, a mess, there's no defending it and any rioter that comes out with another meaningless pr statement will just look like a fool cause only a fool couldn't have seen what was gonna happen with old warlords, dft, tld and fervor.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 7, 20166 votes

But hasn't balance been a balancing act throughout the whole game?

I like keystones mainly because they are like the final piece of a champ's build, the power core if you will.

These are the one final push of advantage you have over your enemy, the thing important enough to show up next to your summoner spells.

Bond of Stone, Warlord's Bloodlust, Fervor of Battle, ThunderLord's Decree, and all the others, these are the keystones of Season 6, the oomph of power or stats that makes your character, a champion.

Keystones don't make the game boring for me at all, but that's just my two cents.

Vistha KaiSep 7, 201613 votes

These are the keystones of Season 6, the oomph of power or stats that makes your character, a champion.

Haven't heard such bullshit in quite some time now.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 7, 20163 votes

Well I said that as a hyperbole, kinda like an attempt at stereotypical inspirational speech where there are things that make you who you are, like a personality trait or talent.

In this case I used keystones because some of the champs in the game are just ordinary people with weapons. The thing that makes them able to stand up to literal gods are items. And balancing. Keystones help too.

I dunno, I just like the sound of keystones. But I only started in S6 so I am used to keystones.

I have no idea what was used before hand, but I just don't believe that keystones are all bad, that's all.

Vistha KaiSep 7, 201610 votes

The thing that makes them able to stand up to literal gods...

Is the power of video games. Because the lore is a steaming piece of...

I have no idea what was used before hand, but I just don't believe that keystones are all bad, that's all.

I will say it like this: From 2012 until 2015, I don't remember a point in time, in which masteries were a cause of gameplay problems.

Since Keystones were released there was no timeframe bigger than one patch, in which Keystones weren't causing major balancing problems.

And the best part is that after all this time, Keystones still haven't gotten even one step closer to Riot's intended goal of giving choices. There is always only one real choice for a champion and on top of that non-Keystone masteries were dumbed-down so bad because of Keystones, that the remaining choice in this matter is "Do I want instead of ?"

Compare that to Runes. For each type of runes you have at least 2 choices for any given build, for any given matchup and for any given champion. You can go with AD marks, they can be flat or scaling, you can go Ar.Pen. instead, maybe throw 1% crit in there? But if you are AP, you can go Mr.Pen., how about Hybrid Pen.? How about Glyphs? MR flat or scaling or full man-mode and get CDR, again flat or scaling? Quints? Want AP? Sure. Want AD? Why not. Maybe Lifesteal? Gotcha covered.

Those are meaningful choices and in practice none of them is "wrong".

With Keystones you either pick the current OP or you lose 3 BFs worth of AD, because fuck you that's why.

TyrekGoldenspearSep 7, 20162 votes

Oh. Well I didn't know that.

Thanks for the info.

SteelMankindSep 8, 20161 votes

"There is always only one real choice for a champion and on top of that non-Keystone masteries were dumbed-down so bad because of Keystones" Many champions have multiple VIABLE choices for keystones, so I have no idea where you're coming from. Any tank can run thunderlords for more damage, and some can even go Fervor (Voyboy's Malphite). Juggernauts and burst mages can always take Stormradiers Surge to help their mobility issue. ADCs choose between Fervor and Warlords. Their are plenty of choices, and they cause you to play the game differently.

Vistha KaiSep 8, 20164 votes

That awkward moment when Voyboy's Malphite isn't a tank anymore, but a brusier.

Sure, champions can have multiple viable Keystones. It's the same kind of viability as AD LeBlanc. It's there, but you may as well pick a normal ADC and be much better at the role.

SteelMankindSep 8, 20161 votes

Not sure I agree that its the same kind of viability as AD LeBlanc. According to leagueofgraphs, at a Diamond+ rating: 55/45 split for Warlords/Fervor on SIvir 25/25/50 split for Deathfire/Stormraiders/Grasp on Illaoi 10/30/14/46 split for Deathfire/Stormradiers/Thunderlords/SotA on Vladimir

And that's three of the four champions I looked up; I didn't just include the ones which supported my argument. Anyways, all of the different keystones I listed above have a meaningful impact on the way that champion will be played. Deathfire Illaoi is best if you're laning against a tank who will stack armor, and you plan on building at least two big AD items. Stormraiders Illaoi issss for when you're laning against a squishier, harder to catch opponent and want to be able to chase them down after comboing them. Grasp Illaoi is for when you want to be tankier/safer, since you can proc grasp off the E ghost. There's a time and a place for all of these choices.

So tell me again why 21-9-0 is better?

Champion SkinSep 8, 20164 votes

Who said you had to go 21-9-0 after all the end mastery wasn't actually all that powerful or necessary so you did actually have the option of skipping it

SteelMankindSep 8, 20161 votes

Right - which is why the new keystone system is better. Sure, you have less options on paper since you pretty much have to put 18 points in one tree, but the two or three options you do have are strategic and have significant effect on how you play the champion.

Champion SkinSep 8, 20162 votes

In what way does keystone masteries have a significant effect on how you play the champion? The most it does is make you do one extra auto attack to trigger grasp or thunderlords?

SteelMankindSep 8, 20161 votes

Which is still more interaction that the old mastery system. And making the conscious effort to do one extra auto attack for the thunderlords/grasp proc is significant, because you allow yourself to be in harm's way (minion damage, turret shot, retaliation from enemy laner) that you wouldn't otherwise do if not for the keystone proc.

Champion SkinSep 8, 20161 votes

Well too bad that that's only two masteries... The others are like... you have more health... you heal more... your abilities deal some extra damage as DoT.. your auto attacks deal more damage or heal you.... which doesn't affect the way you play at all

SteelMankindSep 9, 20161 votes

Not exactly. SotA stacking faster for junglers means they have access to more health early on, meaning more turret dives for ganks. Warlords Bloodlust on a top lane skirmisher means you can sustain back from poke, win those top lane auto attack to-the death-wars, heal off the minion wave, and have a chance of killing the jungler when they come to clean up. Fervor means your extended trading is better, so you'll look to force longer trades for the most part.

Deathfire makes poking more lucrative, but yeah, not much interaction here.

Windspeakers is boring. 100% in agreement.

Champion SkinSep 9, 20161 votes

SotA is unlikely to be enough to help a turret dive.. at most you can take 1 more turret shot... and I don't see anything interesting about SotA... especially in the jungle... in the lane you can at least try to deny the cannon minion so there is something... but in the jungle it is basically just extra health with no gameplay attached to it at all

If you want to turret dive it is much more important picking a champion with high burst (you don't want to mess around under tower for too long) and or ways to get out or drop tower aggro Like Pantheon with his passive tanking tower shots, Or Elise who can drop tower aggro... or Zac who can tank tower until he dies but still has his passive

Fervor and Warlords are probably the most interesting ones... though Warlords can be rather boring with giving the enemy the option of just farming minions and sustaining off them (though rightfully nerfed that) And Fervor is probably a bit too strong after all it is honestly just extra damage on auto attack (after all it isn't worth it to continue bad trades just because of the extra damage and good trades you would obviously continue regardless)

The only thing Deathfire could ever do is make someone space out their abilities... but I don't see that ever happening (it also scales with CDR but that's like whatever as it needs AP/AD before it is even remotely useful as it's base damage is so low)

HaloDragonXSep 7, 20165 votes

HEY SOMEONE'S CAUGHT ON WHY FEVORER IS BROKEN

But uh, if you nerf fevorer, buff the champions who were viable because of it, like Kayle and Jax.

NightmareAmazoXSep 8, 20161 votes

Adc's too.

The DeckownerSep 8, 20163 votes

don't forget the BOTS meta where alistar and braum were literally unkillable

SlashStrikerSep 7, 20162 votes

This is the only season that are futured some useful masteries. Well there are some that sucks but compared to previous sessions kaystone make it way better

Fervor of Battle Kaystone at level 18 100+ phys damage on hit - bad kaystone?

Havoc (Season Four Mastery Final Rank in Offensive tree) Increases all of your damages by 3%. WELL DAYUUUM!!!

So you mean to tell me that the champions are not problem but Masteries make problems... Seriously?

Photos of GhostsSep 8, 20166 votes

*KEYstone. Yes it's a bad one, because it allows anyone to be a hypercarry without AD.

JerulEonSep 8, 20162 votes

Flashbacks... so many flashbacks. O.O

JerulEonSep 8, 20162 votes

I think just the damage keystones should be changed to utility focused. Fervor should give attack speed stacks instead of free on hit damage, TLD proc could slow the target for 1 second. Grasp should do less damage but give more health.

GigaPubeSep 8, 20162 votes

there is so much douchbaggery and misinformation in this post i dont know where to begin. guess i just shouldnt, not like OP will believe me or take anything on board. ive wrongly judged many people in my life but i definitely would not be able to stand this guy at all. he'd either have a face i just wanna punch or a voice where everything he says is just disgusting and makes me wanna wince my face so hard it retracts into my throat. also, who the hell upvotes this tripe? vote manipulation much?

HateDaddySep 8, 20163 votes

{quoted}

there is so much douchbaggery and misinformation in this post i dont know where to begin. guess i just shouldnt, not like OP will believe me or take anything on board. ive wrongly judged many people in my life but i definitely would not be able to stand this guy at all. he'd either have a face i just wanna punch or a voice where everything he says is just disgusting and makes me wanna wince my face so hard it retracts into my throat. also, who the hell upvotes this tripe? vote manipulation much?

u ok?

TyrekGoldenspearSep 8, 20162 votes

so quick question, how would you fix these keystones?

Personally I would like for TLD to be moved to the ferocity tree since it seems more offensive than cunning.

The cunning tree has a lot of stuff to increase sustain like cookies and dangerous game. Maybe something to increase healing done on you specifically while Windspeakers is more selfless.

Or maybe this new cunning keystone can reintroduce spellvamp to a degree.

L0ve Is BlueSep 8, 20162 votes

I approve this 100%

DrugsForRobotsSep 7, 20161 votes

Personally, I look at the entire 2016 season as an attempt to polish the game.

Like you say, they've got the right idea, and they've given a huge number of champions some QoL love (that turned out to be direct buffs in some cases...), and they've admitted to wanting to 'touch-up' more champs. And once they make everyone equally OP, we'll have balance, right? @-@

Here's hoping. Shaco

SteelMankindSep 8, 20161 votes

Really guys? Hating on keystones? Pretty sure they let you have way more options that before (21-9-0, 9-21-0, 0-9-21 ring a bell?) Autoattackers have a choice between Warlords and Fervor Casters have a choice between Deathfire and Thunderlords Stormraiders is niche, but there are some champs that it is the best keystone for (Illaoi, Ryze). Still a good option for plenty of champs who usually go a different one (Jayce, Nasus) Thunderlords is a good option on anyone, so yeah, it is kinda generic. Obv only heal supports get Windspeakers, but I could see it being good on Vlad/Swain Tanks can choose between any of the three defensive keystones (or thunderlords) depending on their role.

TBH not really sure where all this griping comes from - the keystone mastery system is one of the best changes for s6; it turned masteries from being background micro stat boosts to new things to play around (do I get the extra auto in for thunderlords and risk taking a ton of minion damage, or do I back off?)

Blkninjar87Sep 8, 20161 votes

When I play other MOBA im conforted knowing that I'm Actually Just playing the Champion and everyone on my team is just playing the champion... and dont have to worry about if they have the right Runes, and Right masteries and right summoner spells like with LOL which creates huge gaps. I dunno how many times i been trolled with summoner 14 cause the person leveled up right as i used it and then i end up dying even tho my CS is better. I dunno how many times I been in a game where the JG forgot summoner 11 so it's basically the end of the game cause it's a requirement to jg.... I dunno how many games i get pushed under turret cause Thunder Lords + Taliyah or Corki or Rumble or AurelionSol or Swain or etc... is some crazy nonsense when going against as melee. I dunno why most keystones Synergize with Offesive Items but like 0 of them Syngerize with tank items... not even grasp of the undying. I dunno why we have masteries tat give us extra armor and MR when there's MORE Masteries and Items out there to ignore them lol.