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A first item for Top Lane Tanks:

The Ecdysiast··3 votes·1,817 views

Here's my suggestion

#Breastplate of Valoran: Can only be purchased on melee champions ##Cost- 2900g Components: item 3067 (800g) item 3010 (1100g) item 1028 (400g) Combine Cost: 600

##Stats 300 HP (600 total, with the Giant Strength passive -- for comparison, Sunfire has 680 total effective health against physical damage. Just so you don't look at 600 and think it's too much without realizing I'm suggesting an item without armor/mr) 350 Mana 10% CDR (20% including Haste) Unique Passive- GIANT STRENGTH: +300 HP (making it a named passive so that it can't be stacked with Sterak's AD) Unique Passive: HASTE: 10% CDR (again, to avoid stacking with mage items)

Unique passive: Inflicting a minion below 350 − 860 (based on level) HP with hard CC executes it, granting you the gold. (the HP matches that of Eye of the Aspect, but no healing and no sharing)

600 HP, 350 mana, and 20% CDR would total 2626g in stats, making the item 91% gold efficient not including the minion passive.

The minion passive doesn't necessarily need to stay, but I think it would be a good trade-off to sacrifice your hard CC for minion gold. If you don't do it properly, then you might die immediately afterwards to a well-timed all in from the opponent. But doing it properly only rewards you with staying on par with them for gold, because you'd still have to wait out the cooldown of your hard CC to try to engage on the enemy.

Altogether, I think I've come up with a perfect item suggestion for top lane tanks. And with all the stipulations in place (can't stack with Sterak's or mid laner items, doesn't provide any offensive capability at all), it couldn't be abused very well by fighters.

Because Sunfire Cape, when compared to every single other first-buy option for every other class, is garbage.

It is by far the least gold efficient first-buy option of any class. Take a look: item 3071 100% item 3078 97% item 3030 111% item 3003 Reaches 100% at 328 mana, and rises as the game continues. item 3285 104% item 3031 112% item 3095 92% item 3147 92% item 3107 108% item 3152 95% item 3165 93% item 3146 121%

And that's not even including any of their passives (except Haste on the 3 mage items since that's a core stat), which all work better for their classes than uncontrollable AoE damage does on a tank. Keep in mind that tanks have a harder time even getting the gold since they aren't suited for trades and duels, and getting shoved under turret means you miss minions because the timing of the damage doesn't match up to the timing of the turret shots.

item 3068 is worse than even the lowest of them, with a miserable 85% gold efficiency even after they reduced its price a couple months ago.

So top tanks, who are a dying breed nowadays, need a first buy that actually matches up to what their competition has. And one that isn't specifically countered by the Black Cleaver most of their opponents can opt into.

16 Comments

Z3Sleeper2 votes

That's not how unique passives work bud. So both "Giant's Strength" would still stack.

Unique passives only don't stack when they do the same thing.

Examples:

Statikk Shyv and Rapidfire Cannon damage doesn't stack but their effects do since they are different effects. Maw and Steraks shields work by proccing whichever procs first and taking those effects and dropping the other's.

Even if they didn't stack, the question remains of do they get the bonus health or the bonus AD?

And altogether, no offense, this item just seems blatantly useless compared to every other existing tank item.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

That's not how unique passives work bud. So both "Giant's Strength" would still stack.

Unique passives only don't stack when they do the same thing.

Examples:

Statikk Shyv and Rapidfire Cannon damage doesn't stack but their effects do since they are different effects. Maw and Steraks shields work by proccing whichever procs first and taking those effects and dropping the other's.

Even if they didn't stack, the question remains of do they get the bonus health or the bonus AD?

And altogether, no offense, this item just seems blatantly useless compared to every other existing tank item.

The Hydra items don't stack, despite having different effects of the same named passive. It's a stat change, so it wouldn't stack. It's not a mechanical effect. And just like with any other item that doesn't stack, one would take priority.

Care you explain why it sounds useless? You didn't really say anything besides something that's not true.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ec7Lwn2A,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-04-21T22:05:54.339+0000)

The Hydra items don't stack, despite having different effects of the same named passive.

Looking at it the wrong way. The effects are tied to the triggering damaging effects, which means whichever would do more damage is the one that triggers and brings along its effects. The actives, of course, can both be activated while off cooldown but both go on cooldown upon activation of either.

It's not the same thing as what you're suggesting.

It's a stat change, so it wouldn't stack. It's not a mechanical effect. And just like with any other item that doesn't stack, one would take priority.

And how does the game determine if you should have more health or more AD?

Care you explain why it sounds useless? You didn't really say anything besides something that's not true.

Here is why it sounds useless: It's a stat-stick, and unlike other pure stat-stick final items, it's not multiplicatively increasing anything so it's pretty worthless. You're skipping out on so many item effects to build pure stats.

2900g for:

600 health 350 mana 20% CDR That's it... pretty damn useless my dude. Oh and it executes minions when using your CC spells on them lmao.

I also find all the restrictions (no ranged, no lost chapter users, no steraks users) pretty hilarious. As if anyone would want this anyway.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Looking at it the wrong way. The effects are tied to the triggering damaging effects, which means whichever would do more damage is the one that triggers and brings along its effects. The actives, of course, can both be activated while off cooldown but both go on cooldown upon activation of either.

It's not the same thing as what you're suggesting.

And how does the game determine if you should have more health or more AD?

Here is why it sounds useless: It's a stat-stick, and unlike other pure stat-stick final items, it's not multiplicatively increasing anything so it's pretty worthless. You're skipping out on so many item effects to build pure stats.

2900g for:

600 health 350 mana 20% CDR That's it... pretty damn useless my dude. Oh and it executes minions when using your CC spells on them lmao.

I also find all the restrictions (no ranged, no lost chapter users, no steraks users) pretty hilarious. As if anyone would want this anyway.

I said it in that sentence. One would take priority. The same way the Spellblade items have a priority order. I'd make it Sterak's before this item, specifically so you can't have the bonus health on top of Sterak's.

So, you completely don't understand the fact the item is intended purely for top lane tanks. The whole point is that it's intended for the champions who already have CC, who already have AoE effects. Who need stats that all the other items provide for their classes, but for some reason they have to buy two full items to get.

It doesn't have a strictly offensive passive, again, because I don't want it to be abused by fighters, resulting in it getting nerfed to the point it's worthless for its intended champions.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ec7Lwn2A,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2019-04-22T20:17:05.142+0000)

So, you completely don't understand the fact the item is intended purely for top lane tanks.

Oooh I like the cute little remark there. I'll make mine follow your example :)

Here, I'll spell out my point nice and simple for you :)

There is not a single tank in the entire game that would be stupid enough to build this item.

There are only 4 champions that would ever even consider building this and those are Udyr, Volibear, Sion and DrMundo (worth it for the CDR despite having no mana or CC).

Guess what those are? :O they're juggernauts! :OOO

So, you completely don't understand the fact the item is intended purely for juggernauts that want health, CDR and mana.

(unless u want another reply like this, check yourself)

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Wasn't trying to be cute. And you've still shown that you don't understand it.

That's fine though. You listed Sion when he's not a juggernaut and still can't grasp that they'd still take Sterak's for its Lifeline passive over this any day.

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Sion isn't a juggernaut? Builds AD + health items, is immobile, does a lot of damage? Sound familiar to a certain class?

Also you know what his Q does right? Big damage AoE CC? With this item he'd clear the whole wave instantly while proccing Soul Furnace? Or did all that escape you in your one-dimensional thought process that all fighters 100% need Steraks?

When's the last time you saw Volibear, Udyr or Mundo build Steraks?

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Sion isn't a juggernaut? Builds AD + health items, is immobile, does a lot of damage? Sound familiar to a certain class?

Also you know what his Q does right? Big damage AoE CC? With this item he'd clear the whole wave instantly while proccing Soul Furnace? Or did all that escape you in your one-dimensional thought process that all fighters 100% need Steraks?

When's the last time you saw Volibear, Udyr or Mundo build Steraks?

HAS. A LOT. OF. CC.

You literally don't know the class descriptions.

He deals enough damage to a wave to do that with a charged Q anyway, but I'll humor you and pretend it makes a difference.

Saevum2 votes

Trying to tackle the struggle for Top Lane Tanks?

The problem with the tanks is not entirely itemization. (Sunfire was toned down tho).

**V7.24 - **
Immolate base damage increased to 26 − 43 (based on level) from 12 − 29 (based on level). Immolate bonus damage to minions and monsters reduced to 50% from 200%. Immolate damage to minions and monsters changed to 39 − 64.5 (based on level) from 36 − 87 (based on level).

This, in part, is the reason why the item feels clunky, Tanks still need to make an effort to clear the waves properly.

But the real reason why they have been knocked out of top (most of them, not all) was the increase of diversity that can bully them there. It's that simple, if they go bot, they get bullied, if they go mid, they get bullied, if they try to jungle, they get bullied, and starve into uselessness cause there are far better picks that can do what they do but better. The tank class is almost dead.

Riot has 2 real approaches (with the ones that are not playable):

  1. Rework. And an analysis to why the very few that are playable remain playable (via kit).
  2. A keystone that could give them the chance to remain in lane, even if they are getting poked (cause they will get poked hard, specially as time goes by, the champion rooster will be increased, and the tank class are usually the ones that will pay the price first). And with poke i mean ranged poke specifically more than melee trades.

Nobody likes to play Tanks cause they: 1. Get bullied. 2.Rely on the team similar to the support role. 3. They strive to stay afloat cause they are not supposed to take kills, which affects the speed of their gold income. 4. There are more champions that counter them heavily early and late game. 5. They usually don't get to be praised for their effort, and are hated because they usually have "point and click" cc reliable abilities. "You play tanks? how skilled of you!". And lastly, number 6: the itemization got chopped here and there. "reduced". But that's a minor problem, IF you ask me that is. Items can be buffed, but those may be abused by the classes that are close to the Tank class.

And that's the whole problem. it's kinda hard to tackle that. It is a major effort that has been avoided.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Trying to tackle the struggle for Top Lane Tanks?

They undid that nerf to sunfire's damage, and it's still an issue because the damage timing isn't in line with turret shots and the base damage of most tanks.

And yeah, back in 7.9 they reduced the overall strength of all tanks by cutting the effective health of HP+Defstat items, making them more vulnerable to not just magic/physical for buying the Sunfire/Visage but true damage as well. Which was an extremely odd choice considering they also simultaneously gutted the mechanics of the three tanks that were actually the problem.

The difficulty of changing each champion individually is exactly the reason why I'm suggesting an item to fix one key issue that they've always had as a class.

DuskDaUmbreon1 votes

Remember, though: Gold inefficiency doens't necessarily make an item bad - It just makes it gold inefficient.

Sunfire gives 3 things tanks need against juggernauts - Armor, health, and waveclear. It's 250 gold cheaper than black cleaver, and is one of the cheapest items you can actually rush, meaning you can get a complete item before the enemy does.

Doesn't mean the item isn't trash, just saying that gold efficiency alone isn't a good enough metric.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Remember, though: Gold inefficiency doens't necessarily make an item bad - It just makes it gold inefficient.

Sunfire gives 3 things tanks need against juggernauts - Armor, health, and waveclear. It's 250 gold cheaper than black cleaver, and is one of the cheapest items you can actually rush, meaning you can get a complete item before the enemy does.

Doesn't mean the item isn't trash, just saying that gold efficiency alone isn't a good enough metric.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5FsJfYi6-sunfire-cape-costs-more-than-black-cleaver

Here's my in-depth analysis of the two items, compared.

You're also ignoring the fact that it's far easier to get gold as any other class, so the lower cost doesn't mean you get it sooner. It means you might get it at the same time as long as you didn't lose any fights yet, which isn't likely since their kits aren't suited to dueling.

And the way the waveclear is implemented is also very poor for a class that can't afford to be in a vulnerable position like the middle of the lane too often. So you're likely shoved under turret, where the damage doesn't match up to the timing of turret shots. It's like buying a tiamat when you're behind. All it does is make you lose any control you did have over the minion wave.

So I hope I've made it even clearer why the item is trash, on top of its gold inefficiency. I didn't even include the passives of the other items, but every single one of them is better for their class than Sunfire's is for tanks.

Z3Sleeper1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Ecdysiast,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ec7Lwn2A,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2019-04-21T13:56:05.359+0000)

You're also ignoring the fact that it's far easier to get gold as any other class, so the lower cost doesn't mean you get it sooner. It means you might get it at the same time as long as you didn't lose any fights yet, which isn't likely since their kits aren't suited to dueling.

Not true in all cases. It all comes down to what champion is being played and against what.

And the way the waveclear is implemented is also very poor for a class that can't afford to be in a vulnerable position like the middle of the lane too often. So you're likely shoved under turret, where the damage doesn't match up to the timing of turret shots. It's like buying a tiamat when you're behind. All it does is make you lose any control you did have over the minion wave.

Which is why Tiamat users don't buy Tiamat when they're behind either, so don't build Bami/Sunfire if you're behind. Tanks don't get a free pass on this.

Noone ever wants to be in the middle of the lane, that's the trade-off to these items. Some suffer more than others but tanks as a class aren't suffering any more than anyone other class as a whole in this aspect.

The Ecdysiast1 votes

{quoted}

Not true in all cases. It all comes down to what champion is being played and against what.

Which is why Tiamat users don't buy Tiamat when they're behind either, so don't build Bami/Sunfire if you're behind. Tanks don't get a free pass on this.

Noone ever wants to be in the middle of the lane, that's the trade-off to these items. Some suffer more than others but tanks as a class aren't suffering any more than anyone other class as a whole in this aspect.

  1. Obviously hard counters are a different story. Doesn't really matter what you buy then.

  2. Tiamat users all have the option of buying something else. That's the entire point. Tanks have no option, because no core item exists for them. They simply have to make due with Sunfire or get the even worse Deadman's and have even less of a chance at dueling. Tanks as a class are suffering more because of this. Go check out top lane pick and win rates for tanks. Outside of Sion, they're all suffering. And then there are the cases like Nautilus who can't even go top any more and has his dedicated mains only picking him sup because he can't jungle either.

Also, to say no one ever wants to be in the middle of the lane is just plane incorrect. Champions who don't struggle to 1v1 have no problem being in the middle of the lane. And like I said before, anyone who can rush Hydra when ahead also has the option of buying Cleaver or Trinity anyway, both better options than any a tank might get.

TakaDama1 votes

A few things:

Giant's Strength on Sterak's Gage increases bonus AD by 50% of base AD.

That reminds me of Cinderhulk's scaling HP passive, and that may be a better direction since giving more HP for building HP. Granted, tanks aren't the only class that builds HP, so that may need to be taken into consideration.

As for the minion execute, while I'm not sure whether it is broken or not (for example, Alistar and Sion could clear waves with their Qs), the main issue is how the execution occurs: why would any champion, tank or not, waste hard CC on a lane minion and not their lane opponent or the opposing jungler?

If anything, I would actually base the execute off of the old purple smite and have it proc similarly to Aftershock: hard CC a champion and deal damage/execute minions near them. This helps in two ways: wave clear while laning, and trading while laning (minion aggro is still a thing, and without their own minions to help them, they risk taking damage from minions aggroing you).

The Ecdysiast1 votes

Yeah, my bad. I linked you to the wrong thread. I posted another where I included a reminder of how unique passives function.

It doesn't matter what the passive with that name does on other items. It can be a different effect. It still won't stack as long as the name is the same. The reason spellblade and energized items "stack" is because the other effects besides the damage aren't actually part of the named "spellblade" and "energized" effects, they're separate, nameless unique passives.

And the "waste" of hard CC is exactly why I made that the condition. It's a big drawback for an effect that's really strong on champs with AoE hard cc.

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