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The state of the jungle

Blue Shift··17 votes·7,139 views

Jungle used to be a strategy that only certain champions could use. Smite was never intended for people to farm the jungle as a primary source of income/exp, the jungle monsters were there to add to the map, giving players options and allowing them to create their own ways to play. People only realized it could be a strat later on and only very specific champions like Nunu and Warwick could actually pull it off by having kits that could sustain it.

This was nice because champions like Camille and Twitch, who have kits that aren't meant to be used in the jungle, couldn't go into the jungle and have success by just spam ganking lanes. Nobody likes having a jungle gank your lane, especially when it happens multiple times a game. Jungle champions should need to have their kit actually be good at killing monsters, which makes them able to be used in the jungle like Fiddle and his W/E or Old Nunu and his passive/Q.

Long gone are the days of Riot adding champions and letting the players decide where they go, now they are straight up labeling them BEFORE THEY EVEN COME OUT. This is pretty fucked up and pretty much goes hand in hand with the runes reforged update of not allowing people to create their own strategies and metas, but defining them before players can even get a chance to use them. I don't think this will change anytime soon sadly, so I have some potential solutions to adapt to the new Riot.

Rework/remove the jungle items and make the jungle harder. Force champions to actually be good at killing the jungle and force them to take longer killing them. This will reduce the overall amount of ganks because killing the jungle will take longer and leave the jungler at lower health.

For example Kha Zix Q and Kayn Q being changed to do more damage to monsters and minions. This will stop champs like Karthus and Dr Mundo from going into the jungle, creating balance nightmares for everyone else.

Add more jungle camps. There should be more jungle camps, making people pick and choose which ones they can do early without dying or being too low in case of a counter jungle. This will allow junglers to counter jungle the enemy if they decide to gank, making ganks more rare and making jungle an interactive role.

Red Side: one camp on the opposite side of red, one next to the top tier 2 turret, one further back in the jungle near the current blast cone, and one near the mid tier 2 turret. Blue Side: One on the other side of wolves, one in the corner of the wall to bot, one further down in the jungle in the long pathway, and one near the mid tier 1 turret. Note: The map is mirrored so just flip it for blue side because all of the above is for red side. Not all of them need to be added, just 2-4. They don't need to be anything like what we already have, maybe another buff that's green and gives something else, or just a harder camp that you shouldn't be able to kill until level 6. Some of the jungle could be also be changed like walls and bushes as well.

Image for people who learn easier through pictures: https://imgur.com/a/W7fhAkI

Rework the scuttle. Scuttle isn't fun or interesting because it's almost always based on your laners and not how good you are at the jungle. Maybe make it so it only spawns for your team if you kill X amount of camps. (Must allow for counter jungling to be done if the enemy decides to rush scuttle for the vision and extra sustain/exp.

For example if you are on red side and you do X amount of jungle it will spawn a red scuttle that will appear as a ghost scuttle and untargetable by the blue side. Both can be spawned and once one is taken the other despawns. The current system of it always spawning at 3:15 is not fun or interesting to play around. Maybe levels could work, for example once the jungler hits level 3.

Remove the Blast Cone. Blast cone gives far too much mobility. Most of the time it's just used as a free escape card for champions that are immobile, for people that messed up or just to get places quicker. Change the Scrying Orb. Make the Scrying orb only reveal wards and traps because right now it gives way too much information and is only somewhat acceptable right now because of how bad the jungle is.

Note, these are only suggestions and could be detrimental to the game. If you have better ideas then go ahead and use the comment section, that is what a forum is meant for

22 Comments

PzyXo8 votes

You asked for a discussion in the end, here I go :

For example Kha Zix Q and Kayn Q being changed to do more damage to monsters and minions. This will stop champs like Karthus and Dr Mundo from going into the jungle, creating balance nightmares for everyone else

I didn't understand this one. Can you please make it clear?

Add more jungle camps. There should be more jungle camps, making people pick and choose which ones they can do early without dying or being too low in case of a counter jungle. This will allow junglers to counter jungle the enemy if they decide to gank, making ganks more rare and making jungle an interactive role.

This will make junglers useless 100%. This will make them just farming simulators + Its boring to just farm all game. You saw the jungle role from inside, not outside. Imagine botlane playing Ashe/Janna vs Draven/Blitz with the enemy jungler being Camille for example. This will be nightmare for them. When we talk about jungle, we talk about the secondary support who controls the game. Take that in note friend <3

Rework the scuttle. Scuttle isn't fun or interesting because it's almost always based on your laners and not how good you are at the jungle. Maybe make it so it only spawns for your team if you kill X amount of camps. (Must allow for counter jungling to be done if the enemy decides to rush scuttle for the vision and extra sustain/exp.

I'm against these, This will make junglers more useless for laners. the jungler's job is to help the team by either ganking, taking objectives, giving laners vision. As we used to see in s7, scuttle was the most important thing in the game after drake in early game, because of Xin Zhao and Camille..etc, so by removing the scuttle, it'll make it more harder for laners to react to these champs who gank early. Even if the farmer junglers can't gank well, they help laners by using scuttles/drakes.

What I suggest is to just give less exp from lanes to anyone who got "SMITE", and balance camps's exp. The jungle problem is done. This is my point of view since I play every type of junglers :

  • Xin Zhao for early ganks
  • Kha'Zix for early midgame controlling
  • Kayn for farming simulator
  • Shaco for anti-farming simulator XD

I still respect your points tho. Just giving my ideas

Crescent Dusk1 votes

{quoted}

You asked for a discussion in the end, here I go :

I didn't understand this one. Can you please make it clear?

This will make junglers useless 100%. This will make them just farming simulators + Its boring to just farm all game. You saw the jungle role from inside, not outside. Imagine botlane playing Ashe/Janna vs Draven/Blitz with the enemy jungler being Camille for example. This will be nightmare for them. When we talk about jungle, we talk about the secondary support who controls the game. Take that in note friend <3

I'm against these, This will make junglers more useless for laners. the jungler's job is to help the team by either ganking, taking objectives, giving laners vision. As we used to see in s7, scuttle was the most important thing in the game after drake in early game, because of Xin Zhao and Camille..etc, so by removing the scuttle, it'll make it more harder for laners to react to these champs who gank early. Even if the farmer junglers can't gank well, they help laners by using scuttles/drakes.

What I suggest is to just give less exp from lanes to anyone who got "SMITE", and balance camps's exp. The jungle problem is done. This is my point of view since I play every type of junglers :

  • Xin Zhao for early ganks
  • Kha'Zix for early midgame controlling
  • Kayn for farming simulator
  • Shaco for anti-farming simulator XD

I still respect your points tho. Just giving my ideas

Don't underestimate Kayn early game ganks. He still does enough damage for an easy 2v1 and he has incredibly easy gank routes to avoid wards. As soon as you get Rhaast you can even duel most junglers that aren't Yi or Jax.

I think nerfing xp from lanes or jungle is a terrible idea.

The nerf should come by removing xp from kills. That way inters have far less deleterious effects on the rest of their team. The gold lead is bad enough.

PzyXo1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crescent Dusk,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ebxy0W3e,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-11-01T03:16:26.008+0000)

Don't underestimate Kayn early game ganks. He still does enough damage for an easy 2v1 and he has incredibly easy gank routes to avoid wards. As soon as you get Rhaast you can even duel most junglers that aren't Yi or Jax.

I think nerfing xp from lanes or jungle is a terrible idea.

The nerf should come by removing xp from kills. That way inters have far less deleterious effects on the rest of their team. The gold lead is bad enough.

I'm not underestimating Kayn's ganks which are truly trash except if the enemy laner is overextended without a flash.

By nerfing exp on lanes I mean NERFING EXP FROM MINIONS EARLY GAME TO ANYONE WHO HAS SMITE. Simple :P

Crescent Dusk1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not underestimating Kayn's ganks which are truly trash except if the enemy laner is overextended without a flash.

By nerfing exp on lanes I mean NERFING EXP FROM MINIONS EARLY GAME TO ANYONE WHO HAS SMITE. Simple :P

I mean, the whole point of ganks is that the enemy is overextended by the river? Outside the odd cheese bush ganks when the enemy backs. If you get a drop you get a flash or a kill regardless of what jungler you are, and Kayn's ganks are no worse than Kindred's if he lands his W, especially post-buff. He's no 1v1 champ early but his clear speeds in jungle clearly show he's no wimp damage wise.

Blue Shift1 votes

I didn't understand this one. Can you please make it clear?

Of course, thanks for the congenial reply.

What I mean by this is putting things on kits that more suite them to the jungle, because as it is, many would not be able to do the jungle that is being proposed.

If you look at Fiddlesticks, his E does 100% bonus damage to monsters as well as having the very good W for sustain. Champions should have something along these lines added to help them so they can actually do the jungle. Another example is Nunu with his old Q and passive, his Q was used to deal massive true damage to monsters and minions while also healing him and giving him some bonuses, while his passive was used to keep his mana pool high, also synergizing very well with his w when he's able to auto attack.

This will make junglers useless 100%. This will make them just farming simulators + Its boring to just farm all game. You saw the jungle role from inside, not outside. Imagine botlane playing Ashe/Janna vs Draven/Blitz with the enemy jungler being Camille for example. This will be nightmare for them. When we talk about jungle, we talk about the secondary support who controls the game. Take that in note friend <3

I'm not quite sure I understand this part but i'll do my best to respond.

This will make junglers less impactful to lanes, allowing real skill expression and more 1v1/2v2s to happen. It will make jungle vs jungle an actual thing again, allowing you to outskill the opponent in multiple ways like taking camps, killing them, etc... This will not remove ganking from the game whatsoever. If you still want to gank and get your laners ahead, you can do that. This will just allow for more skill expression in the jungle and not just as a gank slave and being used as a walking smite for objectives.

I'm not quite sure the metaphor that was made and I will need some further explanation, but camille will 100% not be a jungler if this update went through. She will be a top / mid laner or whatever the community wants to do with her. Her kit is nowhere near able to do the jungle and the only reason she can now is because of how little you actually need to kill the jungle to succeed.

Also, this COULD make jungle a farming simulator, but how is this any different from any other lane?

I think the problem is the fact that it's been so long since jungle was fun and engaging, that people forgot what it used to be. You used to farm the jungle a lot and you used to be able to play things like Master Yi and carry just as hard as others. If the enemy team is good, they will gank, get objectives, counter jungle, and push things hard that are all things that stop something like a Master Yi from just afk power farming. The new camps are a MASSIVE question mark and nothing is set in stone.

Maybe one could be a camp that is weaker than the dragon, but much stronger than any other camp. It will give a lot of gold/exp, but you would not be able to do it until you are much stronger. One could be a new buff that gives bonus EXP for the time that it's active or make it so all damage you do to champions is reduced by 20%, but teammates that attack the marked enemy do 20% increased damage.

At least one should be added as a somewhat normal camp like the others though, maybe two with how the jungle experience is being nerfed again.

I'm against these, This will make junglers more useless for laners. the jungler's job is to help the team by either ganking, taking objectives, giving laners vision. As we used to see in s7, scuttle was the most important thing in the game after drake in early game, because of Xin Zhao and Camille..etc, so by removing the scuttle, it'll make it more harder for laners to react to these champs who gank early. Even if the farmer junglers can't gank well, they help laners by using scuttles/drakes.

You just fundamentally understand the jungle role differently, it's not a role that is just for ganking and getting laners ahead, it is it's own role. It isn't just a second support to the game or even a role that is just supposed to be jungle vs jungle. The entire purpose is to make jungle more useless for laners, you should show your skill by solo killing your opponenent(s), not by having a jungler come and help you. Camille should never be in the jungle and xin zhao early would be too weak due to the jungle changes to able to gank, unless he sacrificed his early quite hard.

BBKong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ebxy0W3e,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2019-11-01T05:28:57.420+0000)

You just fundamentally understand the jungle role differently, it's not a role that is just for ganking and getting laners ahead, it is it's own role. It isn't just a second support to the game or even a role that is just supposed to be jungle vs jungle. The entire purpose is to make jungle more useless for laners, you should show your skill by solo killing your opponenent(s), not by having a jungler come and help you. Camille should never be in the jungle and xin zhao early would be too weak due to the jungle changes to able to gank, unless he sacrificed his early quite hard.

See, there's a disconnect here. Because it's a damage meta currently, and lane counters matter so much, at times there's very little chance for one laner (or two in bot lane) to get ahead due to skill, and when both teams are skilled it'll either be a stalemate or a stomp in some lanes with less jungle pressure.

I think you're seeing it as more of a jungle issue than a game issue - the way the game has progressed has made leads very effective - jungle becoming gank machines and mid lane roaming so much is a product of that. If junglers had less lane impact again, they'd need to change a lot of things for it to be relevant at all.

I'm not even disagreeing with you! I love some farm heavy junglers! But completely eliminating a gank-heavy playstyle from the role wouldn't be good, they need to find a balance that allows both farm heavy junglers and gank heavy junglers to have place in the game, with different strengths and weaknesses. It brings diversity to the role, and it's bad that it so heavily favors jungles that can spam gank right now. The fix isn't completely eliminating one style because there's skill that managing both styles can take - understanding your win condition and what the opponent wants to do to play around it and trick them out of playing the way they want to.

Scuttle could use some changes, it feels a bit too impactful, but removing scuttle isn't great because it benefits farm jungles when they can take one, it helps their laners and themselves with vision to protect from the enemy jungle, EXP and mana for themselves, valuable tools.

I think the ideas about making the jungle harder and possibly adding camps are worth looking into, because I remember the days when it was difficult to clear. When I one-tricked Nidalee to diamond, I could fuck up kiting and easily get executed in ~4 camps. It required more skill and I enjoyed that. The goal shouldn't be to make junglers only interact with the enemy jungler most of the time, take longer to clear and be less healthy (and therefore more susceptible to invades), it should be that they can adopt both ganking and farming playstyles and not fuck over their team by not playing Nunu and rolling down a lane every 15 seconds. Having it be that diverse again would make for more skill expression which is what you're wanting, I take it. Diversity is a good thing, it feels like what you're saying is we should trade a shade of black for a shade of white instead of striving to make both balanced in gray.

I don't know, it feels like you want jungle to become a 1v1 with occasional roams like toplane and that's just not what it should ever be. They're there to make impact on the game state where they can while also getting ahead of the enemy jungler and pushing them down, it's just the way it's currently balanced makes it so that you gank every 10 seconds and hope your laners don't die to ganks every 10 seconds. Their primary role should always be, farm the jungle and hinder the enemy jungler until you see an opportunity to make an impact and help your team. Right now it's farm camps when nothing's happening and force any plays you can elsewhere no matter what champion you're playing - Which is how some junglers should be played! It's good on some kits! But it being the primary strategy on anyone in jungle is where the issue is. We can agree on that, just don't forget to recognize that it being a viable playstyle in some places is good for the game and diversity's sake.

Oh, and limiting it to "this champion has a damage buff to monsters so they may jungle" is gating and unhealthy for situational and off-meta picks. Of course some champions should be harder to make work (nerf karthus clear) but that's too gatekeep-y of a way to do it.

Blue Shift1 votes

So you are saying. "Because my lane sucks, yours has to as well instead of fixing what sucks".

This is an extremely horrible way of thinking. Obviously damage meta sucks, I've said this for a long time and it is nearly 100% because of runes reforged. Counter pick meta arises from the horrible rune choices because the options are EXTREMELY limited.

There game is VERY broken with problems literally everywhere. At least we can try fixing it slowly instead of just saying "oh well it's already past the point of no return".

Also, the point of making them weaker is because right now, the jungle items make it so you can gank a lane, and then go to HEAL off camps. It's a horrible situation because people don't use jungle for the exp anymore, abusing catch up exp is much easier and provides more to your team than if you were to just farm. It doesn't mean that once you clear 3 camps you will be one shot and about to die, it just means if you don't have a kit centered around jungling then you should be much weaker than someone who does.

Having it be that diverse again would make for more skill expression which is what you're wanting, I take it. Diversity is a good thing, it feels like what you're saying is we should trade a shade of black for a shade of white instead of striving to make both balanced in gray.

For the balance thing, It would more clearly indicate which champions are good in the jungle. Xin Zhao has his passive heal with his good auto attacking damage because the jungle can't run away. It makes him a fast and good clear champion for the jungle. Something like a Karthus has a kit that is not good for the jungle in the slightest. He abuses the current jungle item with the isolation damage on his Q while kiting, then after the first 5-6 levels, he can clear extremely fast because the jungle is too weak.

The goal shouldn't be to make junglers only interact with the enemy jungler most of the time, take longer to clear and be less healthy (and therefore more susceptible to invades), it should be that they can adopt both ganking and farming playstyles and not fuck over their team by not playing Nunu and rolling down a lane every 15 seconds.

Adding a few more camps would NOT remove ganking from the game, you just have it so ingrained in your head that you must gank all the time that you think lowering it to maybe once per lane is a bad thing. Right now it doesn't matter if the enemy isn't pushed, you have SO MUCH free time to just fuck around and get sums, put pressure, etc... that right now as a laner it feels awful. As a jungler some people love it because you have a lot of impact, but no role should have that much impact on the game.

I don't know, it feels like you want jungle to become a 1v1 with occasional roams like toplane and that's just not what it should ever be.

These changes wouldn't make it just a jungle vs jungle as I said in my reply. Ganks still happen, but you actually need to think them through and plan instead of just going "welp I got no camps might as well walk bot lane and see what happens". They are not there to make impact on the game, Mid lane should have just as much pressure on other lanes as the jungle does and that's how it has always been.

it's just the way it's currently balanced makes it so that you gank every 10 seconds and hope your laners don't die to ganks every 10 seconds.

This is close to how it is though, most junglers clear the jungle extremely fast because it is incredibly weak, and then instantly go to gank lanes. Only certain junglers that are not good at ganking can't do this, and even then if a lane is pushed slightly above half, then a gank is possible.

Right now it's farm camps when nothing's happening and force any plays you can elsewhere no matter what champion you're playing

The problem with this is what I just said, the jungle is insanely easy to clear and takes way too long to respawn. Pair that with the fact that jungle doesn't give very much exp, it means that a good jungler is going to just spam camp lanes and take objectives like turret platings, rift, and dragons.

BBKong1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ebxy0W3e,comment-id=0003000100000000,timestamp=2019-11-01T16:36:40.624+0000)

So you are saying. "Because my lane sucks, yours has to as well instead of fixing what sucks".

This is an extremely horrible way of thinking. Obviously damage meta sucks, I've said this for a long time and it is nearly 100% because of runes reforged. Counter pick meta arises from the horrible rune choices because the options are EXTREMELY limited.

There game is VERY broken with problems literally everywhere. At least we can try fixing it slowly instead of just saying "oh well it's already past the point of no return".

Also, the point of making them weaker is because right now, the jungle items make it so you can gank a lane, and then go to HEAL off camps. It's a horrible situation because people don't use jungle for the exp anymore, abusing catch up exp is much easier and provides more to your team than if you were to just farm. It doesn't mean that once you clear 3 camps you will be one shot and about to die, it just means if you don't have a kit centered around jungling then you should be much weaker than someone who does.

For the balance thing, It would more clearly indicate which champions are good in the jungle. Xin Zhao has his passive heal with his good auto attacking damage because the jungle can't run away. It makes him a fast and good clear champion for the jungle. Something like a Karthus has a kit that is not good for the jungle in the slightest. He abuses the current jungle item with the isolation damage on his Q while kiting, then after the first 5-6 levels, he can clear extremely fast because the jungle is too weak.

Adding a few more camps would NOT remove ganking from the game, you just have it so ingrained in your head that you must gank all the time that you think lowering it to maybe once per lane is a bad thing. Right now it doesn't matter if the enemy isn't pushed, you have SO MUCH free time to just fuck around and get sums, put pressure, etc... that right now as a laner it feels awful. As a jungler some people love it because you have a lot of impact, but no role should have that much impact on the game.

These changes wouldn't make it just a jungle vs jungle as I said in my reply. Ganks still happen, but you actually need to think them through and plan instead of just going "welp I got no camps might as well walk bot lane and see what happens". They are not there to make impact on the game, Mid lane should have just as much pressure on other lanes as the jungle does and that's how it has always been.

This is close to how it is though, most junglers clear the jungle extremely fast because it is incredibly weak, and then instantly go to gank lanes. Only certain junglers that are not good at ganking can't do this, and even then if a lane is pushed slightly above half, then a gank is possible.

The problem with this is what I just said, the jungle is insanely easy to clear and takes way too long to respawn. Pair that with the fact that jungle doesn't give very much exp, it means that a good jungler is going to just spam camp lanes and take objectives like turret platings, rift, and dragons.

You're misunderstanding a lot of what I'm saying. Limiting the amount of jungle champs by buffing the champs themselves like your suggestions on Kayn and K6 is a bad idea, if we do that it'll gate the role too much. We want it to be possible but difficult to see things like when Twisted Fate jungle was a situational off-meta pick that they picked in the LCS and it complimented perfectly. When I said this, I didn't mean you're wrong about buffing camp difficulty and MAYBE adding more camps, but buffing the champions in that way isn't the way to do it except in the rare circumstance when a champion screams jungle but wouldn't be able to clear in that situation.

You didn't actually dispute my main point that I wanted to make very clear - ganking junglers should be a very viable playstyle. Just not overshadow farming junglers like they currently do. Also making farming junglers play with many ganks to be able to keep up.

I even was giving points that were agreements between us in the last couple statements, but the way you responded makes it seem like you think I wasn't agreeing.

This is close to how it is though, most junglers clear the jungle extremely fast because it is incredibly weak, and then instantly go to gank lanes.

That's what I said. The best strategy right now is spam ganking. There needs to be a balance where some champs will be able to clear and gank quickly, and that's where we need to make it clear that we need to be careful about the difficulty changes or those aggressive junglers will be far less successful. This doesn't mean I don't think need a difficulty buff, because we do.

"Because my lane sucks, yours has to as well instead of fixing what sucks".

When did I say that? I said the game is flawed, and we need to fix the game currently before we focus on just jungle changes, or it'll break the game further. It's more, "if we buff my role it'll cause ripple issues in other places, we have to contain the consequences it'll have"

It's, "We want to fix what sucks. If we start with only one lane, it'll be lopsided and potentially make other lanes suck even more. We need to make big changes altogether rather than specific lane changes alone."

They are not there to make impact on the game, Mid lane should have just as much pressure on other lanes as the jungle does and that's how it has always been.

That's not quite true. Of course making an impact on the game isn't their only job, but why else would you want a role that is constantly moving around the map with the best, most consistent, and quickest opportunity to be contesting objectives? The best way for the role to be useful is to both take jungle resources for efficiency AND be constantly in the right place at the right time by good pathing, ready to rotate, instead of having to push waves first like laners. The camps reset, minions don't, so they can move instantly without losing as much as the mid laner who's not pushed out coming to help bot lane with dragon. Not to mention in most situations they'll be closer than another lane will. They have more pressure as jungle, that's the payoff for their different and often less profitable farming. It's always felt that way to me, but I didn't play for the first couple seasons, only slightly in 4 and a lot in 5 and 6 onwards.

notsoimportant4 votes

Scuttle isn't fun or interesting because it's almost always based on your laners and not how good you are at the jungle.

Ok? And?

League is a team based game not a 1v1 sniper shoot out on rust

The current system of it always spawning at 2:15

You're a entire season late here buddy.

Scuttle spawn time changed to 3:15 almost a year ago

Remove the Blast Cone.

Hey, if blast cones are your biggest fear you know you can destroy them with... One auto attack.

Change the Scrying Orb. Make the Scrying orb only reveal wards and traps because right now it gives way too much information and is only somewhat acceptable right now because of how bad the jungle is.

?????

floo3 votes

By giving only specific champions bonus damage to minions and thereby allowing only them to jungle is exactly like labeling certain champs jungle-viable or not..

Blue Shift1 votes

That is the entire point.

notsoimportant2 votes

Maybe levels could work, for example once the jungler hits level 3

How would this make it better at all?

Now scuttle just spawns at 2:00 - 2:15 like it did before

Blue Shift4 votes

Note, these are only suggestions and could be detrimental to the game. If you have better ideas then go ahead and use the comment section, that is what a forum is meant for

Make it level 5 then, it doesn't matter. Whatever works best after gameplay testing. Also, you are assuming you are running off the current leveling.

notsoimportant1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ebxy0W3e,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2019-10-31T23:28:56.396+0000)

Make it level 5 then, it doesn't matter. Whatever works best after gameplay testing. Also, you are assuming you are running off the current leveling.

Did i hear someone... Assuming Jinx

PuttriQ2 votes

If you guys read the dev blog post about the new preseason patch they talk a little about how they will be changing the jungle to narrow down certain champ's viability

BigFBear1 votes

can you give us a link?

PuttriQ1 votes

Yea for sure https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/gameplay/preseason-2020-gameplay-rise-elements PSA: its a little ways down past all of the major gameplay changes

The thigh guy2 votes

It’s not like jungle is a joke of a role already. You get 4 minutes to play the game. The rest you are just the meg of your team.

ViperVenom2 votes

Everything you wrote:

NO.

Stop trying to remove the jungler role from the game. Yes jungle is in a bad spot cuz of xp nerfs, but this would just make it way worse.

dolce de leche1 votes

Riot no longer cares about player identity and options. They stopped caring long ago when they started removing things just because the majority didn't play them and with the removal of choice in not only the runes/masteries but with the removal of sightstone and support options. It just keeps going with things like zzrot being removed. Letting the player pick their way to play is no longer high on Riot's agenda.

LightswornLance1 votes

Why would you play this game if you are looking for a farming simulator, just wondering.

Tormentula1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blue Shift,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ebxy0W3e,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-10-31T22:26:19.292+0000)

This was nice because champions like Camille and Twitch, who have kits that aren't meant to be used in the jungle, couldn't go into the jungle and have success by just spam ganking lanes.

That hasn't changed, both still suck in the jungle and solely exist for cheese strategies, the only issue is that with the numerous XP nerfs to the jungle, there is no reward for junglers who farm over gank, which means the earliest and spammiest gankers can thrive off of 0 XP since the XP gap of pushing in a wave after winning a lane is far greater than clearing one side of the jungler atm, or even counterjungling for that matter.

This is why s8 was such a fucking mess, only champs that could gank level 2 for lane priority for crabs could be played, cuz if you played for even fast level 3 clears, you'd still lose crab and map pressure to the level 2 jungler.

When XP is low, players resort to a 'got nothing to lose' playstyle, and resort to pure ganking and relying on the laners to carry their low XP gain, the problem was this playstyle worked too well considering the more defensive or slower playstyles of farming junglers just can't pay off in comparison nor punish the enemy jungler for doing this (it was very common for a spam ganking jungler to be the same level as a powerfarming jungler who has double the CS, just because the XP gain is so fucking atrocious that if you farm you're just AFK.) When XP is higher, spam ganking junglers will sometimes be 2-3 if not more levels behind the enemy jungler that farms and only show on the map for safe ganks, this added a whole level of risk to spam ganking jgs who could just fall off into nonexistance mid-late game and the enemy's can 1v9. Thats the only reason camille was even played, she could do 1 camp, level 2 side lane, crab, level 2 mid lane, crab, level 3 top lane, wins all 3 lanes, river control, and the enemy jungle is just hitting level 3. It wasn't just camille either, xin, j4, lee, pantheon, and occasionally taliyah and rek'sai did this as well, a biproduct of the meta.

There was nothing wrong with the season 6 jg, and the s7 jg wasn't bad either if it wasn't for the assassin and tank reworks ruining the game at the time, the big differences is the fucking crab and XP nerfs.

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