Luden's Echo is underpowered compared to Statikk Shiv (Analysis)

Aranii·3/13/2015, 5:06:40 PM·5 votes·4,307 views

I love the new AP item, and it's a lot of fun to use. However, it seems a bit underwhelming compared to it's AD counterpart. Granted, the two items are not perfectly analogous, but I think comparing and contrasting them reveals some interesting facts.

Luden's Echo is only 93% gold efficient without the passive effect. Shiv is 102% gold efficient without its passive. They both do the same amount of base damage, but Shiv does 200 damage when it crits (250 with IE, which is almost always built first). In order for Luden's to do that much damage, it's bearer would have to have 667 AP, or 1000 AP to compare with IE crit Shiv. That will almost never happen in a normal game. Granted, additional magic damage from an item generally goes better with AP champs than AD, but still think Luden's is underpowered for its cost.

Potential solutions: Decrease cost of Luden's by ~100g, increase AP ratio on passive proc, increase base damage on passive proc, or add a small amount of a third caster stat to the item. (Such as spell vamp, CDR, flat magic pen, etc)

Thanks for you time.

9 Comments

Piantissimo3/13/2015, 5:15:40 PM5 votes

but how many AD champions can poke from 1400 range like ziggs, xerath, lux and TF can?

and as you said, it has a scaling on it which is amazing, it turns 55 and 60 % AP ratios into 70 and 75.

it is just pokey siege mages are out of favour with the mana changes

Sire Hippington3/13/2015, 5:17:13 PM3 votes

what you fail to see is that ludens procs of spells and not AAs, so you can proc it requently without getting in danger. You also fail to see that ludens always deals its full damage, while SS has only a chance to crit. SS alone is a average of 120 damage per proc, as in average only every 5th hit crits with SS alone. Ludens deals on it'S own 118 damage due to the 120ap. you only 13 ap from runes/masteries to reach SS base. SS+IE is 160 average, so you only need 400 ap to get that much out of ludens(which still is easier to proc)

Fizz is not Fish3/13/2015, 6:26:37 PM2 votes

Many champs don't build it because of SLOT.

item 3020 item 3165 item 3089 item 3157 item 3135 they need one of item 3100 /item 3116 /item 3152 item 3040 /item 3027 /item 3001 .

The5lacker3/13/2015, 6:24:01 PM1 votes

The problem isn't Luden's Echo is underpowered compared to Statikk Shiv: The problem is that AP Statikk Shiv doesn't make any sense as an item. Statikk Shiv is designed for champs adept at kiting, hence stacks on movement and attack. Having the same stack generation and same limited number of targets as that on an AP item just doesn't make sense. It'd be like a tank item that grants lifesteal.

Luden's Echo needs an identity other than "A bad Statikk Shiv with worse particles for AP champs." Because that doesn't make any sense. That's not what AP champs need in any capacity. If they want to make an item for spammy casters, this is what they need to do:

Luden's Echo

  • Needlessly Large Rod (1600g) + Aether Wisp (850g) + Forbidden Idol (600g) + 250g = 3300g
  • 120 Ability Power
  • 100% base Mana Regen
  • 10% Cooldown Reduction
  • 5% Movement Speed
  • Unique Passive - Casting a spell grants an Echo charge (Max 6). Charges dissipate one at a time after out of combat for 10 seconds.
  • Unique Active - Consumes all Echo charges to fire an equal number of homing bolts into an area, each dealing 35 (+5 per Level) (+20% Ability Power) to the enemy they lock in on. Echo Bolts prioritize champions over minions, and enemies can only be hit by one bolt. (60 Second Cooldown) (800 Range, 200 Radius selection area.)
DanofDemacia3/13/2015, 6:10:16 PM1 votes

I don't think the item is so great after morellelicon and sorcer shoes on lux I rushed the ludens echo and I honestly think deatbcap would be better.

Desmond Law3/13/2015, 6:29:22 PM1 votes

Your spells get an additional .15 AP ratio. I'd say it's worth it.

Kitten of Evil3/13/2015, 8:31:41 PM1 votes

Well, Ludens also benefits from Mpen, something most mages spec into at least a bit item 3135 item 3020 ... Shiv would benefit from it too, but ADCs never build Mpen (except maybe Corki, and unless I'm mistaken Corki doesn't really buy Shiv anyway)

Saferio3/15/2015, 10:03:47 PM1 votes

I think luden echo is pathetic item and not worth the gold. Why? Because it doesn't hit the main target so it's only helpful in wave clearing, which is most often unnecessary for most AP champs + in team fight it's useless I would rather have 30% AP from deathcap as it's build from large rod than having echo. Maybe if it didn't build from Large rod or they would to delete deathcap and zhonya. As they are much more better picks than echo in every occasion ever.