So you're removing DFG.... We still need another AP CDR item.

Phife·Jan 26, 2015·49 votes·5,242 views

You're basically forcing people to either get lucidity boots or athenes... (mind you i also have morellos in mind but thats half of the cdr you're able to get, what about the other half?)

why not just remove DFG active?

Edit: people seem to be taking this the wrong way... I dont like DFG and i like that its being removed, but 120 ap gone from our inventory is HUGE blow! So im just tossing it out there, why don't you just remove the active from DFG and keep it as it or even add 5% cdr to the existing 10%?

I just wanted to correct my self from any understanding / confusion.

98 Comments

Jungle Lux GodJan 26, 201521 votes

Except you think that people buy DFG for the CDR and not the high amounts of AP and the active ability of killing an enemy champion.

And if you need CDR on an AP item, you have more than enough options with Morellonomicon, Athene's, Twin Shadows, Banner of Command, Will of the Ancients, Nashor's Tooth, IGB, and Ardent Censer. At least a couple of those options are bad for AP champs, but most of them are respectable replacements for DFG's cooldown reduction if you need it.

ModKnightsKemplarJan 26, 20154 votes

Precisely. The CDR on DFG just wan't much. And yeah, lucidity boots are fine if you need CDR. I see nothing wrong with that. Agree 100% with this guy.

RedTrinketGoneHaJan 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Except you think that people buy DFG for the CDR and not the high amounts of AP and the active ability of killing an enemy champion.

And if you need CDR on an AP item, you have more than enough options with Morellonomicon, Athene's, Twin Shadows, Banner of Command, Will of the Ancients, Nashor's Tooth, IGB, and Ardent Censer. At least a couple of those options are bad for AP champs, but most of them are respectable replacements for DFG's cooldown reduction if you need it.

All of which offer mana regen and in no way help resourceless champions...

Sightless66Jan 27, 20156 votes

Is that such a big deal? I mean, look at the manaless AP champions. Kennen, Rumble and Vlad just don't use DFG, it's an acceptable but easily-skipped item for Akali, and Katarina has a rework coming up that will shift her itemization quite a bit (not to mention that she's got a lot of power even without that item). That only really leaves Morde, and he just needs help with or without the item. I'm not sure this is really a big issue for manaless champions. Oh, and Garen. Can't forget Garen. He's not happy.

PhifeJan 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Except you think that people buy DFG for the CDR and not the high amounts of AP and the active ability of killing an enemy champion.

And if you need CDR on an AP item, you have more than enough options with Morellonomicon, Athene's, Twin Shadows, Banner of Command, Will of the Ancients, Nashor's Tooth, IGB, and Ardent Censer. At least a couple of those options are bad for AP champs, but most of them are respectable replacements for DFG's cooldown reduction if you need it.

Except im not saying DFG + CDR was healthy im just saying there needs to be a form of Flat AP and CDR for champs that need damage on demand with lower cooldowns.

WolfBVJan 27, 20152 votes

The removal of item 3128 saddens Lord Mordekaiser item 3073

Skia AsteriJan 26, 201512 votes

item 3023 item 3060

PhifeJan 26, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Skia Asteri,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZKQqpfy,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-26T20:53:19.516+0000)

ew wtf...

CindikleJan 26, 201513 votes

Don't underrate the ghosts.

It's even a good assassin item to catch people.

iamthegoatofwarJan 26, 20152 votes

I honestly agree those ghosts scare me...

PhifeJan 27, 20153 votes

ghosts aren't bad its its awkward stats that scare me. I dont like the 10% only cdr and 6%(wtf random amount) of movement speed.

Like i said, id like an ap item that was basic and offered AP + CDR without an awkwardness of a random stat thrown on it so they could reduce the amount of ap it has overall.

ErockandrollJan 27, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=MY NAMEH JEFF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZKQqpfy,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-27T03:51:37.850+0000)

ghosts aren't bad its its awkward stats that scare me. I dont like the 10% only cdr and 6%(wtf random amount) of movement speed.

Like i said, id like an ap item that was basic and offered AP + CDR without an awkwardness of a random stat thrown on it so they could reduce the amount of ap it has overall.

Do you hear yourself? That is Contradictory. You wanted an AP+CDR Item, and then Asked if we could just reduce the AP on DFG. I would Take Spooky Ghosts over a Nerfed DFG any day.

And do you really think 6% MS is trash? It's by no means awkward. (6% is the same as on Shiv) Are you OCD?

PhifeJan 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Do you hear yourself? That is Contradictory. You wanted an AP+CDR Item, and then Asked if we could just reduce the AP on DFG. I would Take Spooky Ghosts over a Nerfed DFG any day.

And do you really think 6% MS is trash? It's by no means awkward. (6% is the same as on Shiv) Are you OCD?

80 ap > 120 ap? 6% MS > 15% CDR?

Sightless66Jan 27, 20152 votes

DFG gives 10% CDR, not 15%. Ghosts may give 80 AP, but that is fine for the price it costs.

iamthegoatofwarJan 27, 20152 votes

Eh thing is the slow on the ghosts makes it easier for some mages to kill their targets due to lack of their own mobility. The trend with mages is if you miss you CC you're fucked. Ghosts will auto target and hunt them slowing and making them easier to hit in general. You can also use it to scout areas like dragon safely without needing a ward as the ghosts will hunt towards enemy champions. Ghosts heading towards dragon=enemies near dragon. Same logic can be done with baron.

OrangesilkJan 27, 201512 votes

I'd like to remind you that when Lich Bane got nerfed, Riot stated:

"Lich Bane was giving unnecessary burst to AP champions without changing their playstyle, we decided this was unhealthy since we already have an item for dedicated AP burst, the DFG, so we will reduce the amount of burst Lich Bane does"

I love when they are coherent like this.

SyraiJan 26, 201510 votes

Theres still morellos, which provides more AP then Athenes.

PhifeJan 26, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Theres still morellos, which provides more AP then Athenes.

morellos gives 20% cdr, how about the other 15 (assuming u have masteries)?

Sailor MintJan 26, 20156 votes

There's an argument for CDR Boots on some champions. Especially for utility mages who get a huge power spike from hitting 40%CDR as early as possible.

A 10% CDR item + runes can cover the remaining 15% on most champions.

LeeDarkJan 27, 20152 votes

No, the standard path is 5% CDR in masteries, another 5% in runes, and then a 20% and 10% item. For non-mana champions.

Double Morello's for mana champions. Which is fucking stupid.

FredartJan 28, 20151 votes

Standard path sounds boring, i'd stick with my +20mag pen and 3mana regen.

LeeDarkJan 28, 20151 votes

That's for mana champions. The "standard" mentioned was for non-mana champions, as was stated. Pay attention.

Also, your setup sounds just as boring. They are runes and masteries. There is no excitement to be had there. But what you really meant was "I do something else just because everyone else is doing what you said." You are not a special snowflake. You are just nerfing yourself to feel special when you aren't.

Random TaskJan 26, 201510 votes

item 3165

lightdragoon88Jan 26, 20159 votes

Saying that AFG and Athenes are the only AP items with CDR?

IGotScuttleCrabsJan 26, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=MY NAMEH JEFF,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EZKQqpfy,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-26T20:45:55.653+0000)

You're basically forcing people to either get lucidity boots or athenes...

why not just remove DFG active?

This but make it 15 cdr, lower the price a little and call it a day. Now you can take 5 cdr in masteries, morello/athenas, then "new dfg" and hit 40 on an ap mana champ.

SleepyLionCubJan 27, 20155 votes

They should have just reworked DFG.

It feels really lazy to simply remove it, Maybe instead of increasing magic damage dealt just deals the active damage and slows people for a duration, or better yet, change it into something similar to a trundle ult, where it deals damage over time and heals the caster for a percentage.

Tin TarantinoJan 27, 20155 votes

Maybe they could finally do this

item 3140 + item 1058

IGotScuttleCrabsJan 28, 20151 votes

They'd never do this simply due to item 3157 . And if they did, you'd never hear the end of it from ad mains that dispose hourglass even existing and now ap has a second get out of jail free button.

Tin TarantinoJan 28, 20151 votes

AP champions can already buy item 3140 , this would just give it an upgrade path other than item 3139 , so it's not that much of a change, it still has items that would outclass it.

FadedpfJan 26, 20154 votes

Youre saying people like Katarina or Ahri DESERVES 10% CDR and 5% from masteries with this build item 3089 item 3157 item 3128 item 3135 item 3020 with item 3026 or item 3102

DFG giving CDR is just a luxury, the OP active and amount of AP it gives isnt healthy and is why riot is removing it. if you want CDR get cdr runes or buy item 3165

Riot doesnt have to make a 120 ap item with CDR to compensate at all

ShımaJan 26, 201515 votes

Meanwhile. Marksmen have four recipes for BF sword.

FredartJan 28, 20151 votes

with one being completely useless besides the ad.

It Is I EmotoJan 26, 20153 votes

How about.. item 3152 ? It's kinda forgotten and has some dust too. How about we'll turn it into the new "Deathfire grasp"? (well not excatly with the burst pattern, but it'll give probably spell vamp its time to shine)

LeeDarkJan 27, 20153 votes

Yeah, when they fix spellvamp to not be terrible. Every other CDR item is better because Riot nerfed the crap out of spellvamp.

Lord ÐaríusJan 26, 20151 votes

we need ad cdr and bruiser cdr item WAY more than ap stop whining.

Wînter FoxJan 26, 201519 votes

So true, an item with AD and CDR together is non-existent

item 3071 item 3508 item 3142 item 3172 item 3707

Lord ÐaríusJan 26, 20151 votes

I did say bruiser too where are those?

iamthegoatofwarJan 26, 20159 votes

Bruisers tend to get black cleaver....

IGotScuttleCrabsJan 26, 20156 votes

They are also know to get Ghostblade at times..

insaiyanbaccaJan 27, 20158 votes

and if they jungle at least 75% of them get the warrior enchant

Lord ÐaríusJan 27, 20151 votes

that one item where is our 20% cdr item?

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Jan 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

that one item where is our 20% cdr item?

When you stop auto attacking?

Meep ManJan 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

that one item where is our 20% cdr item?

20% CDR for Bruisers? Have you looked at? item 3110 or item 3050

DecaedeusJan 27, 20159 votes

One you can rush too, that's essentially universally good on almost every bruiser. item 3134

MrSexyHoboJan 27, 20151 votes

oh no you have to get cdr boots!!!!!!!!!!!cdr is so strong on mages that i dont see why more of them dont buy these boots over sorc

PhifeJan 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

oh no you have to get cdr boots!!!!!!!!!!!cdr is so strong on mages that i dont see why more of them dont buy these boots over sorc

because flat pen is extremely good? its just a gamble when u take lucidity. you make a decision to either go for burst or sustained damage over a couple of seconds or just lower cooldowns in general. (which aren't bad im just saying; would you rather kill X champ in 1 rotation or 2?)

junglerboy16Jan 27, 20152 votes

Normally I sell my Sorc shoes late game for Lucidity if I haven't already gotten to 40%, because 15 flat pen is a really strong early game spike, but falls off late game, especially once void staff gets thrown into the mix to take care of high mr.

MrSexyHoboJan 28, 20151 votes

the problem was that after a certain point a dfg sorc shoe mage can 1 shot the other laner. i personally would like to 1 shot someone but is it healthy for the game? probably not

FredartJan 28, 20151 votes

It does did like 15% of max hp, how is that one shotting?

MrSexyHoboJan 28, 20151 votes

lol ok now i cannot take you seriously.

if a champ like lb gets a good early game with a couple of kills she rushes dfg and shoes and proceeds to kill any champ she wants or any champ that is unlucky enough to stumble into her. do the calculations on how much damage 15% max hp plus 20% amped damage on a lb with around 180 ap and 23 magic pen is going to do to a champ like wukong jungle who is 1-2 levels lower than her