Riot needs to learn how to buff certain champions to diminish the strength (OP'ness) of others.

Phife·Feb 10, 2015·53 votes·3,562 views

Champs are always cycling through OP > UP > underplayed > OP > UP... Riot needs to learn to reach out to the champions that aren't being played and ones with old kits and fix them so they're all playable making every champ in league on the same level, otherwise you could just keep nerfing the shit out of anything that becomes popular and then wait for the next popular thing to arise.

Here's a little tip: back in season 2 most mid laners had at least 1 100% ap ratio. Now? everyone of them has been nerfed to 70-60% ratios. The game was still just as balanced as it is now but you see the trend riot is making?

46 Comments

majulitoFeb 11, 20155 votes

I remember lux used to be considered a low cd mage with good wave clear. Now everyone has waveclear and low cds. I also remember when cdr was something you had to go out of your way to build. Now its tacked on to everything. Before reaching the cap usually meant that you gave up raw damage but now its in core items and the top of the mastery tree. The only thing that seems the same is mana is an issue again.

Irelia BotFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I remember lux used to be considered a low cd mage with good wave clear. Now everyone has waveclear and low cds. I also remember when cdr was something you had to go out of your way to build. Now its tacked on to everything. Before reaching the cap usually meant that you gave up raw damage but now its in core items and the top of the mastery tree. The only thing that seems the same is mana is an issue again.

So glad mana is somewhat of an issue again. it was stupid having things like a ziggs being able to endlessly siege becasue of athene's. no i am not defending zed and his broken no effort wave clear but mana and energy should both be a gate on power.

NarasimhaFeb 10, 20154 votes

As mch as I love s2, it was honestly pretty ridiculous in terms of balance. Nocturne could gank from the middle of the jungle, Mundo really did go where he pleased, Olaf was at his prime, and of course, there was release Zyra.

PhifeFeb 10, 201510 votes

{quoted}

As mch as I love s2, it was honestly pretty ridiculous in terms of balance. Nocturne could gank from the middle of the jungle, Mundo really did go where he pleased, Olaf was at his prime, and of course, there was release Zyra.

I'm not asking if it was balanced or not, im trying to point out a trend that is reoccuring. Riot picks who is popular and who isn't they focus on who is buff and who is nerfed. They could have done many things to help out 120 of their champions but instead they focus on like 5 at a time with patch notes. And throughout a season you get the same 5 champions in rotation for picks / bans and trash tier (by the end of their cycle)

NarasimhaFeb 10, 20153 votes

From a balance standpoint, that actually makes sense. The fewer changes you make, the more you can see the real effects of your changes. If you change every single champion at once, it would be nice. However, unless the alterations were super drastic, it becomes impossible to see what effect those changes had. From there, its simply logical to touch up on the more popular champs. Those are the champs that are going to see play the most. For example, you could do pretty much anything (reasonable) to Urgot or Aatrox, and it wouldn't really matter because still people wouldn't use them. While its a good sentiment to want every champion to be touched upon, its pretty much an impossibility short of a rework or a major balance event ( such as the removal of DFG).

PhifeFeb 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

From a balance standpoint, that actually makes sense. The fewer changes you make, the more you can see the real effects of your changes. If you change every single champion at once, it would be nice. However, unless the alterations were super drastic, it becomes impossible to see what effect those changes had.

In theory yes, that is what you would like to see ONCE everything is balanced. But instead we see about 20 champions in LCS and the rest are cast aside. Riot should look at those champions not being played and see what they can do to them.

{quoted}

From there, its simply logical to touch up on the more popular champs. Those are the champs that are going to see play the most. For example, you could do pretty much anything (reasonable) to Urgot or Aatrox, and it wouldn't really matter because still people wouldn't use them. While its a good sentiment to want every champion to be touched upon, its pretty much an impossibility short of a rework or a major balance event ( such as the removal of DFG).

So why would they remove DFG if they didn't have an answer to fill the gap with?

KingsgraveFeb 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In theory yes, that is what you would like to see ONCE everything is balanced. But instead we see about 20 champions in LCS and the rest are cast aside. Riot should look at those champions not being played and see what they can do to them.

So why would they remove DFG if they didn't have an answer to fill the gap with?

As they said in the patchnotes they observed the effect of no DFG and what players did in response to it and concluded that most if not all champions weren't really affected by the removal much in terms of build and winrate.

That ones that were got compensation or are going to get compensation like Veigar and Morde.

PhifeFeb 10, 20152 votes

{quoted}

As they said in the patchnotes they observed the effect of no DFG and what players did in response to it and concluded that most if not all champions weren't really affected by the removal much in terms of build and winrate.

That ones that were got compensation or are going to get compensation like Veigar and Morde.

Have you heard of what Riot wants to do with morde??? They want to make him a tank..... I just dont trust them anymore.

KingsgraveFeb 10, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Have you heard of what Riot wants to do with morde??? They want to make him a tank..... I just dont trust them anymore.

They said they wanted to make him tankier and more of a fighter. He will be a bruiser not a burst mage anymore. He won't be a tank.

WheatloafFeb 11, 20151 votes

They want to buff his tankiness and sustained damage instead of his burst, which is reasonable.

Rew711Feb 11, 20151 votes

I understand what you mean, but at the same time look at Zac. He's a Tank but they nerfed the fire out of him so he now deals minimal damage and is actually pretty easy to kill because of his passive that works half the time. Mordekaiser will be using health like Zac, so I'm afraid of any nerfs coming his way.

NarasimhaFeb 12, 20151 votes

That was because Zac was Vlad 2.0 in top lane. Poke? Check. Sustain? Check. CC? A nice bonus. GA passive? Icing on the cake.

Was he overnerfed? Maybe. Did he have it coming? Definetly.

JevelFaithfulFeb 11, 20151 votes

Honnestly, I look at morde and I see a tank... A tank that keeps himself alive while doing damage, but a "tank" nonetheless. I never played him, so you have the point of view of an outsider.

DaCushFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In theory yes, that is what you would like to see ONCE everything is balanced. But instead we see about 20 champions in LCS and the rest are cast aside. Riot should look at those champions not being played and see what they can do to them.

So why would they remove DFG if they didn't have an answer to fill the gap with?

What? I'm sorry but once everything is balanced is when you don't make any changes. And when things are not balanced, you want to make small changes over time because there are ripple effects, ESPECIALLY in high elo where they take advantage of every small change. If they were to change every champion at once there would be absolutely no way to understand how one thing affected another because that is over 120 variables all being changed at once and you have no idea how they are going to conflict with another change which is why you make few changes at a time. You're logic is backwards man and all twisted up. Here is the blatant truth, this game will NEVER be balanced. No game ever is when you have so many variables. It's absolutely impossible. All Riot can do is change the meta up every so often to keep it fresh. And to be honest, you will never notice imbalance unless you watch the LCS or are in high elo as every champion is viable in low-mid elo and the only champs that you will actually notice being underpowered in low elo are champs with extremely outdated kits like ashe, urgot, and kennen which is why they are getting reworks rather than small changes. The only reason there is a meta in low-mid elo is because the LCS and Twitch exists where lower level players can watch the pros and feel like they are getting a huge advantage by playing what the pros are playing. If there were no LCS, Twitch, youtube, communication between high elo and low elo I bet you that almost every champ would have the same play rate or there play rate would be more dependent on how fun their kit is rather than a strict champion meta.

ShaabanglyyFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

In theory yes, that is what you would like to see ONCE everything is balanced. But instead we see about 20 champions in LCS and the rest are cast aside. Riot should look at those champions not being played and see what they can do to them.

So why would they remove DFG if they didn't have an answer to fill the gap with?

Stop looking at the LCS. It will literally never matter. True balance is not possible with a cast the size of this game. Riot has said that 100's of times. its just not possible. Balance in this game is just an ebb and flow of reactive changes to the current state of the game. With this amount of items and champions true balance isn't possible. Everything cant be as good as everything else.

The reason why LCS picks never matter as evidence of lack of balance is that the pro players play the game enough that they will ALWAYS identify the best possible champions at any given time and will prioritize them as pick/bans because that's what you do when you want to win.

Its like telling the Cavaliers not to start Lebron James because they have another player who is ALMOST as good as him who never gets to play. They just wont. And its the same with the pros. Why would they just to use Talon, when Zed is better for example. But there will ALWAYS be a champion who is just a little better at any given time, and the pros will know that and pick them.

MinrogFeb 12, 20151 votes

Shen is still terrible, and they've looked at him I don't know how many times (a dozen? more?). They released Volibear and left him to rot after like 1 balance change which was a huge nerf (after people had plunked down cash for him ofc).

Of the characters that aren't played competitively, I'd say most of them it's because their kits are missing something they absolutely need to be competitive. Shen has no offense, no MR scaling and pretty weak base stats except he's supposed to be a tank (since he can't be a support or a damage dealer...). Volibear lacks an Ultimate, he's like Udyr without any stances - though Udyr doesn't see play anymore really either.

Unless you drastically alter their stats way outside of the norm, you'd have to rework their abilities completely to fix them. If you're gonna do that it makes more economic sense to just release a new one to farm up dollars I guess.

Neo CyrusFeb 11, 20151 votes

You clearly didn't look at the stats back then. There are WAY more outliers now than there were back then. Nearly all champions were between 47 and 52% as far as win rates went (at all Elos) and 52% was super high. There were very few below 47 and rarely more than 3 above 52%. Right now there are tons sitting in the mid to low 40s while there are tons at 53%+ and they won't be touched, like Syndra at 41% in every Elo and server that's not trash, being left there to rot because reasons.

Almost ironically the one far outlier all of season 2 was Janna at a regular 53-55% win rate, almost every week at 54%. There's a good reason why she was the Victorious skin of that season.

Only Play DariusFeb 11, 20152 votes

Sounds like every champ was OP in their own way. Maybe it may cause issues in competitive play, but hell, making every champ OP makes the game balanced AND hella fun!

BTW was that true about nocturne? LMFAO I need to go check out youtube.

BoswickFeb 11, 20151 votes

I I started playing when noc was released. I don't remember if his ult was actually global but it was damn close, he could pretty much gank from anywhere. Not to mention they had to nerf everything in his kit like 100 times to balance him.

NarasimhaFeb 11, 20151 votes

Yeah, it was pretty chaotic, but it was defiantly fun.

And no, I'm not being hyperbolic. Basically Nocturne's ult always had the range of his level 16 ult now. So as soon as he hit level 6, he could gank from pretty much anywhere.

Only Play DariusFeb 12, 20151 votes

Damn, hearing stuff like this makes me really wish I got into League earlier, I started playing on Braum 's release, but back in 2011/2012 I had a high school friend who was in Master and offered to play with me and even give me some coaching. I downloaded and played one game, then decided I liked Xbox more.

Now I play League daily and my friend stopped a while ago, missed opportunities I swear.

killd0zerFeb 12, 20151 votes

It's rose tinted glasses.

People complained about S2, probably as much as they do now if not more. The complains were more intelligent tho. I think that with the popularity spike and the boards change, the average poster age probably dropped.

S2 is pretty much when everything started to go wrong. If you want chaotic random fun, you wan S1 or Pre-S1

warpenguin555Feb 10, 20153 votes

hehe opness

metaworldpeace10Feb 11, 20153 votes

It all boils down to how Riot balances the game. Do they manipulate balance towards the LCS and ESports scene or do they try and balance the game for the average joe player? Do they balance the game according to what will attract viewers towards their ESports scene? It's all up for speculation and debate. With Riots track record, they tend to nerf/buff champions that bring excitement to the LCS. Riot can say all they want about how they want to "listen to player feedback" or "cater towards the non-LCS player" but in reality whatever makes them more dough is the path they will take. I'm not trying to be condescending towards Riot as a company, but this generally happens with any company that has a loyal following and is making lots of money. I totally agree with the OP. Id love to see those champions that have low pick rates/win rates be buffed back into viability. I'd love to see a day where every champion on the League roster can be played in their respective roles without the player being labeled a "troll." I'm a realist though and I just don't see this happening anytime soon. Examples? The Jungle changes have HEAVILY favored LCS poster boy Lee Sin followed by big time LC$ play makers J4 and Vi. Tanks being almost obsolete because it's more fun watching a Lucian wreck through your team than a Mundo face tanking an entire team. I'm grateful for OPs post, I sympathize with you, but it's not gonna happen. Riot has always balanced with the "whack a mole" strategy and they will continue to manipulate who is at the top of each role depending on what attracts more LCS and ESports viewers which in turn generates more revenue.

Only Play DariusFeb 11, 20151 votes

Skarner item 3070

I play as my main jungler now, I realize champs like her are part of the problem, but dammit, why does she have to be so damn fun AND powerful?

D1rtFarmerFeb 11, 20151 votes

cause riot is honestly full of geeks, nerds, and pre woman havers.

SpecterVonBarenFeb 11, 20152 votes

Hhm... More towards your title but, an intriguing thought, instead of nerfing the champions that cause problems, buff the champions that counter them.

EmWtTxCTGLFeb 11, 20151 votes

How is this any different than now aside from it promoting power creep?

Those buffed counters now become the OP champions. Then Riot buffs others...and now we all have 400,000 HP.

Silents429Feb 11, 20152 votes

You are asking for the impossible and this isn't even as an insult to Riot, You can't balance a game that way, every champion would feel the same, and as they make more and more champions they have to find new creative ways to design them, requiring changes to everyone.

Given your example, old champions tend to be overpowered with small tweaks to ratios, like Warwick or Poppy for example.

But lets say you are right, we have every champion all modernized and updated, and set to a base line.

We still aren't going to see equal play and we are still going to have those few champions be considered on top of the rest, and we are still going to have a group of people that don't get played. And League will get boring and repetitive because their is no real way to balance them this way, every champion has a different role and build, and trying to force a baseline on them is terrible balance.

2pudge1cupFeb 11, 20152 votes

Riot is overly scared about power creep.

The thing is that power creep is a phenomenon that will always happen in a game with an existing set of rules that continually adds content. It's a reality that needs to be accepted. New content can't be added without creating new interactions with existing content or simply being better.

Riot nerfs existing content to compensate for this, but new things end up still being stronger than old predecessors. It ends up creating a power sink where there still is power creep, but only on a select few. This exists with either items that break an interaction on an older champ or kits themselves.

The biggest offenders over the years have been wave clear, cdr (both as a stat and base cooldowns), and mobility.

Until Riot accepts that power creep is going to happen and adapts existing content to it, we will have a poorly balanced game. Way too often the argument is that "well hurr everyone will haz 500k hp and do 1 million damages" which is idiotic. That extreme will never be reached. By that same logic I could argue with riot's current approach everyone will have 10 hp and die to lane minions.

KijinxFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

By that same logic I could argue with riot's current approach everyone will have 10 hp and die to lane minions.

No, you don't think they'd turn everyone into sona do you?

Knight SoIaire Feb 10, 20151 votes

Riot needs to learn to reach out to the champions that aren't being played and ones with old kits and fix them so they're all playable making every champ in league on the same level,

not possible with buffs

otherwise you could just keep nerfing the shit out of anything that becomes popular and then wait for the next popular thing to arise.

just like buffs would do while also making towers obsolete

the thing that most of those chapions need is a rework aimed at expressing those champiions niche and making them fit into the current game

PhifeFeb 10, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hagane No Arashi,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2rhbycxM,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-10T22:21:26.590+0000)

not possible with buffs

just like buffs would do while also making towers obsolete

the thing that most of those chapions need is a rework aimed at expressing those champiions niche and making them fit into the current game

im not against reworks but; you're saying we cant buff champions without gutting current strong champs?

Knight SoIaire Feb 11, 20151 votes

im sayint that we wont change the ballance beetwen champions, we will still spin the fotm wheel but at the same time we will break some core ballance like tower power, dragon power etc

making champions stronger makes them also stronger vs the enviroment

Gank in ProgressFeb 10, 20151 votes

take gragas as an example. im playing him a lot in the new jungle in d3. he is balanced and actualyl didnt really need this buff. he has downsides and upsides. im playing him fulltank with frozen gauntlet with about 15/15 masteries.

PhifeFeb 10, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quality PIayer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=2rhbycxM,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2015-02-10T23:17:42.175+0000)

take gragas as an example. im playing him a lot in the new jungle in d3. he is balanced and actualyl didnt really need this buff. he has downsides and upsides. im playing him fulltank with frozen gauntlet with about 15/15 masteries.

im sorry, but how does this relate to anything? Gragas was good then he was bad now hes Balanced?

ArveanorFeb 11, 20151 votes

Unless they make a pretty fundamental shift in how they want this game to be designed, it literally isn't possible for them to achieve perfect balance.

EmWtTxCTGLFeb 11, 20151 votes

Riot does do this though...

Graggy and TF both just got buffs.

They're small but they are nice buffs. And some changes people cry about being nerfs end up being HUGE buffs because people cry before they actually play...take Ahri for example...or honestly any rework recently. They like all end up being OP as shit once people stop crying and figure out how to play them proper.

Irelia BotFeb 11, 20151 votes

It would be nice if instead of nerfing Irelia, Gnar and Lissandra which is likely to happen in the next 2 or 3 patches other champs would be buffed. But Riot has made it clear that they are balancing around the LCS and the cancerous meta game that is followed because of it.

Just looking at top lane overall wukong, trynda and Fiora are all generally better off then Irelia, Gnar or Lissandra but just not picked near as much because LCS meta game makes many players play specific Fotm champs.

J EevoFeb 11, 20151 votes

They just have to learn that Mobility is worth more than they think it does in a character kit (I thought they knew that when they took a shit on kassa's damage to balance out his damage to his ult mobility but he's the only one that has to pay that much for it) Flashes and dashes are worth MORE in a kit than movement speed increases, slows are worth WAY LESS than a stun or just a simple snare, and worth EVEN less when used on champions with dashes and jumps of which there are plenty nowadays(Maybe with the exception of the extreme slows like Wither) You want to introduce champions with a lot of jumps? Fine do so. I'd be lying if I said they're not fun to play but make them pay for their mobility through their damage or unreliability.

Mandang0Feb 11, 20151 votes

I agree in principle, but it boils down to Riot's current balancing being a lot less work for them.

Riot's stated they prefer to avoid powercreep by balancing the few outliers rather than the pushing the entire pack to the outliers' level. Now, this doesn't prevent Riot from buffing weak outliers, but because those champions are already underplayed, Riot sees changes to those champions as less impactful (which is probably true).

I find it annoying that Riot refuses to let recently-OP champs remain weak for any appreciable length of time, but I guess they want to keep their recent handiwork strong so it doesn't end up like their old champs have ended up.

AresIFeb 11, 20151 votes

Bump, please buff Trundle

JasiwelFeb 11, 20151 votes

I think Riot is trying to identify unhealthy aspects of champions without making net value changes, which is problematic because it leaves out the potential that values can be the unhealthy part of the champion. For example, Zed has unhealthy interactions that can be resolved by increasing his Cooldowns and Energy Costs without tampering with his design as a champion. Safety as an assassin should come at the price of only being safe every so often. Even if Zed has decent CDs, his energy costs are still too forgiving. He should be a champion that requires a high skill floor for what he can do.

kitcat300Feb 11, 20151 votes

What examples would you give of who need to be buffed in the first place?

ShaabanglyyFeb 11, 20151 votes

Not to be a jerk btw im sorry if I came off as such.