If void staff is going to have 40% magic pen, then achieving 150+ MR needs to be possible w/ 2 items

HateDaddy··38 votes·11,699 views

I don’t know why we pretend that MR is in an acceptable state when:

Void gives 40% armor pen Flat pen is incredibly easy to acquire between sorcs/morellos (which negates half of a big ticket MR Item by itself) The copious amounts of ambient magic damage in champions passives, item actives, item passives, etc that make it incredibly easy to stack AD teams because getting magic damage from alternative sources isn’t that difficult. As such, you still can’t reallt buy MR because you need armor, but they do enough magic damage to justify at least one MR item - but the MR item is trash. Most of the %hp damage that exists in this game comes in the form of magic damage

The fact that I can invest in one MR item + mercs and still barely eclipse 100-120 MR (depending on runes) is actually laughable. Cooldowns are so low now since riot basically hands out 40% CDR for free that even conventional methods (stacking HP to avoid burst) don’t work anymore because burst rotations are up so quickly again that even burst champions are practically DPSing. Couple this with the fact that AD/crit is still the best tank killing damage stat in the game, and your realize as a front liner that you can’t justify building more than one MR item + mercs because you’ll melt to the ADC, even if they’re not fed. I’m fine with void giving 40% pen, but MR needs to not be garbage.

145 Comments

Salron32 votes

But I thought mages were being oppressed by the big bad AD assassins mid? How can magic pen be a problem? Gameplay would never lie to me

HateDaddy24 votes

{quoted}

But I thought mages were being oppressed by the big bad AD assassins mid? How can magic pen be a problem? Gameplay would never lie to me

U rite, it was zed that built void and 100-0’d me zero counterplay 6.2 nanoseconds

Genghis Khat3 votes

{quoted}

U rite, it was zed that built void and 100-0’d me zero counterplay 6.2 nanoseconds

zed built lethality against armor ) which is better than pen vs mr

The bad Yasuo6 votes

Thats not even trye. Flat magic pen is 1:1 ratio while lethality is 1:<1. If you hover Lethality on serated dirk it says " 10 lethality (currently negating 7 armor) "

Moonscourge2 votes

[{quoted}](name=The bad Yasuo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=0000000000020001,timestamp=2019-03-21T03:41:53.353+0000)

Thats not even trye. Flat magic pen is 1:1 ratio while lethality is 1:<1. If you hover Lethality on serated dirk it says " 10 lethality (currently negating 7 armor) "

Lethality scales throughout the game as you gain levels and ends up being higher than 1.

LeBlanc Rose9 votes

Didnt know we were including urf games in gameplay discussions.

Saianna2 votes

it was done that way cause flat armor pen was alot stronger. They had to decrease its power a bit.

Crescent Dusk4 votes

{quoted}

But I thought mages were being oppressed by the big bad AD assassins mid? How can magic pen be a problem? Gameplay would never lie to me

Because you won't have void staff in the time you're dealing with nullifying orb and hexdrinker.

I mean, get a fucking clue. How fair is it on Ekko/Fizz/Katarina when some braindead Zed not only gets an R to juke away all your main damage moves and 2 potent shields to negate your burst while you only get a stasis that completely immobilizes you and just means that by the time the stasis comes off Zed has his 3 Q's and E ready for a stationary target.

AD assassin itemization is far superior to AP assassin itemization.

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

Didnt know that zed's fucking q and e were items. Seriously, how does 1 second of invulnerability while not doing anything be so much better than 2.5 seconds of invulnerability while not doing anything? Its not like the former allows your to completely ignore someones entire combo, while the second can. Plus, it isnt like the three champions you mentioned all have ways to get out of zeds tripleqe combo instantly, with ekko ult, katarina e, fizz e.

Crescent Dusk3 votes

[{quoted}](name=LeBlanc Rose,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-03-21T04:12:55.765+0000)

Didnt know that zed's fucking q and e were items. Seriously, how does 1 second of invulnerability while not doing anything be so much better than 2.5 seconds of invulnerability while not doing anything? Its not like the former allows your to completely ignore someones entire combo, while the second can. Plus, it isnt like the three champions you mentioned all have ways to get out of zeds tripleqe combo instantly, with ekko ult, katarina e, fizz e.

Reading is hard. Zed has his rotation up by the time hourglass expires, so hourglass only saves you the detonated mark damage, which zed doesn't need to kill low armor targets with 3 Q's and an E.

Ekko loses the poke game against Zed in lane, Zed's WEQ combo can be done from 650 range, all he needs to do is land it once and wait for ekko's ult to catch up so he can ult after, while Ekko's range is not 650+.

Zed negates Katarina's Q buy ulting it, so she only gets at best a single dagger proc and her ult which isn't even enough to outburst a Zed with nullifying orb, and Zed's passive is actually relevant in lane unlike Katarina's resets which are mostly a teamfight feature.

1 second of invulnerability that multiplies your damage and lets you peace out after a rotation while the damage is done after is far better than spinning like a stationary r%%%%% with the 1863927392 CC in the game that completely shuts down that ult whereas Zed can get CC and the ult window is still long enough for him to cast Q's in time and he E's immediately after coming out of ult anyways.

And let's not even mention the massive scaling lead Zed has over the other assassins.

Simply put, no other assassin but Zed could duel Revenge or Box Box's Rivens and come out on top, because no other assassins can duel bruisers with the exception of old tank Fizz and Ekko, who are dead.

Nameless Drifter5 votes

There are different type of mages. We have Battle Mages, Burst Mages, AP Assassins and Artillery Mages.

AD assassins are in fact abusing the overkill tha lethality is. However Burst Mages and AP Assassins are also abusing the overkill that is the current poor AP itemization. Stop trying to be a smartass, it only makes you look bad.

DracosKasu1 votes

AP dont also give you more dmg on your auto except if you get a shen or lichbane unlike an AD item. So most of the AP Burst and Assassin are also on cd when they use their ability unlike any AD item which can also crit and get even more empower from their item.

LeBlanc Rose1 votes

item 3285 would like to know your location. Plus, while ad assassins may deal more damage with aas than ap assassins, their combos arent often ranged, or with the massive long range initiation of other ap assassins.

Moody P15 votes

Bring back force of nature baby

The thigh guy3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-03-20T23:51:29.788+0000)

Bring back force of nature baby

My god yes please.

Sand Ähläm2 votes

Let us pray for that

Ahri Baka11 votes

But we also can't ignore that mages won't build Void until 4th item after boots or if they do earlier , then they have to sacrifice item 3089 which makes the whole point of getting Magic Pen not even a big deal

and mages with magic pen aren't really that problematic for tanks and stuff honestly as a mages main it's a nightmare for me to play against Tanks or any class that builds heavy MR

Tbh Magic Pen is only problematic on DPS mages like Cassiopeia Ryze , with this I can agree with you , and a late game Veigar who has 1000+ AP but when it comes to other mages , they can't do shit when you build heavy MR , and if they try to use their spells on you and go on cooldowns , then congrats , they have nothing to do in the next 4 or 5 seconds at least while your team just kills them , it's not like they will burst you and they their cc isn't really that huge thanks that rune

HateDaddy11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hikari Sakata,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-03-21T00:15:26.851+0000)

But we also can't ignore that mages won't build Void until 4th item after boots or if they do earlier , then they have to sacrifice item 3089 which makes the whole point of getting Magic Pen not even a big deal

and mages with magic pen aren't really that problematic for tanks and stuff honestly as a mages main it's a nightmare for me to play against Tanks or any class that builds heavy MR

Tbh Magic Pen is only problematic on DPS mages like Cassiopeia Ryze , with this I can agree with you , and a late game Veigar who has 1000+ AP but when it comes to other mages , they can't do shit when you build heavy MR , and if they try to use their spells on you and go on cooldowns , then congrats , they have nothing to do in the next 4 or 5 seconds at least while your team just kills them , it's not like they will burst you and they their cc isn't really that huge thanks that rune

You guys make it sound like mages are easy to dive

“When your team can just kill them.”

What makes you think they’ll stick around and just die between cooldowns?

What makes you think my team survived their cooldowns?

Mages do a lot of damage, even if they don’t kill you, they zone you out. And with CDR abduance and flat pen, they’re able to chunk out beefy targets pretty decently unless they get fed and can stack MR right away. But it’s rare that any front liner will be able to actually stack 2 MR items, and when that happens, void still remains incredibly effective.

Ahri Baka2 votes

{quoted}

You guys make it sound like mages are easy to dive

“When your team can just kill them.”

What makes you think they’ll stick around and just die between cooldowns?

What makes you think my team survived their cooldowns?

Mages do a lot of damage, even if they don’t kill you, they zone you out. And with CDR abduance and flat pen, they’re able to chunk out beefy targets pretty decently unless they get fed and can stack MR right away. But it’s rare that any front liner will be able to actually stack 2 MR items, and when that happens, void still remains incredibly effective.

Well that depends on the mage But you also sounding it as if the Tank is just AFK not doing their Job to CC the enemy Mage

I mean in my reply when for example you are a Lux and then a Maokai gets closer to you , you MUST use your spells to stop him from reaching you because an assassin or an adc from his team will finish you off the Mao either dodges your Q or flashes it or gets hit by it but the snare lasts for less than a second thanks to Mercs and that rune that gives tenacity Then he reaches you , cc'ed you , you got nothing to do but to die if someone on his team followed Sire you will have a front liner too , but it will also depend on what front liner is that Example , your Frontliner reached the enemy adc , they used their CC , they can't kill them because they are a tank , in this time when you as a mage got 4 or 5 seconds cd , the enemy adc will ignore your fornt liner and straightly goes to you and kills you , or at the very least they will attack your Tank in those 4 or 5 seconds , your Tank dies and that's it In other words if Tanks got actually a problem , then it's the armor items , not mages ones

Alüe4 votes

I'm sorry but the majority of mages, outside of your assassins are immobile. Given how the majority of AD champions work its not like its impossible to close the distance. Extreme example here but you expect a mage like Ziggs or Velkoz to out burst someone like Yasuo Zed Jinx <--- all have MS increase btw.

Sand Ähläm5 votes

The 33 magic pen seems small, but can actually be felt pretty hard by tanks. As the 33 magic penetration seems to be a main focus for most of the AP champions, tanks usually don't have that many MR items at that point. Not even mentioning if the tank were to lane against an AD match-up, Meaning that they need armour as well.

Usually, after one MR tank item the MR would be at around 100 (Depends so, so much on other factors but let's stay on that.), meaning that in the eyes of the 33 magic penetration, it's just 67 mr. That amount ain't stopping champions such as: Katarina Ahri Akali Leblanc Lux Velkoz etc. which still chunk easily most of your health, if not killing you instantly.

It's kind of getting interesting to see tanks get one bursted by mages...

Ragnaveil2 votes

I care to question that statement. Getting Void 3rd item as to Deathcap isn't such a terrible tradeoff like it was in the past. The addition of rune stuff like this plus other things along the way have made sacrifices like that much less of an issue. It pertains to a certain "class" item rework that happened beginning of S8.

Handy Sandy 6 votes

but when it comes to other mages , they can't do shit when you build heavy MR

exactly. anyone who has played ARAM as a mage vs tanky champions know's exactly how this feels. this is the #1 reason why full AP comps are so bad that people hate having more than 2 or 3 APs on a single team.

pretend you're Ahri vs Darius item 3211 once he gets a cowl u can't do anything to him, and then he finishes visage and just autowins.

or Lux vs DrMundo like what u gonna do

KirbyCake9 votes

MR is incredibly overpowered in terms of the numbers. Base MR doesn't scale while armor does, and AD champions are given much higher damage numbers. 10 MR on top of 30 base MR gives 7.6% more survivability but 10 MR on top of 90 base armor gives only 5.3% more survivability.

There is a good reason why triple ap damage is a huge liability while triple ad is not. Even with void staff the mages still don't do shit against anybody who builds a single MR item.

Jinzo Torrance8 votes

item 3020 + item 3916 = 2700 gold for 20 AP and 33 MR Pen

item 3065 = 2800 gold for 450 HP, 55 MR and 10% CDR


After the mage has spent 2700 gold he has effectively only 20 AP when facing the tank

After the tank has spent 2800 gold he has 450 HP, 22 MR and 10% CDR when facing the mage

What negates half the big ticket MR item? The Mage 2700 gold got reduced to a 435g amp tome, the tank still has 2200g and Visage passive since he only lost about a 450g Mantle.

If the tank went this abomination of an item item 3194 he would also reduce most mages lackluster DPS by 20% (Tabi 12% was nerfed to 10% while Basics cost 0 Mana, have no CD and cast time in respect to 100+ mana plus spells the mage has to use and put on a CD to do dmg AND most of them are not point and click -- so they're even less reliable than finding your RMB to do his unavoidable 1000 DPS from 550 range)

You want to waltz around with 120 MR from one MR item while the mage has to spend limited resources to damage you (The mage has 3-4 damage abilities with a cost, cd and cast time vs an ADC infinite DPS with one button press)?

You should ask nerfs on the M2 class that forces you to build 6 armor items so it doesn't "DPS" the tank down in 3 seconds, not the mage one that forces you to build only one or two to live in your opinion. If Visage gives 80 MR what changes in your example? The mage still only has to use his low damage CC spell and wait for his ADC to melt you.

PS. item 3194 +item 3065 + base MR of 40 at level 9 = 150, so your title is factually wrong.

MrFawknSunshine6 votes

well you only have to worry about all of your MR being nullified if you get hit with spells.

if you dont get hit with spells you dont need any MR

Moody P7 votes

hard to avoid massive aoe when you aren't particularly mobile tbqh

HateDaddy6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=00020002,timestamp=2019-03-20T23:58:23.558+0000)

hard to avoid massive aoe when you aren't particularly mobile tbqh

Or the fact that mages are ccing me from fog of war so I can’t move anyway

Moody P2 votes

We need equality in the roster

every juggernaut needs a hard cc

INoble KnightI3 votes

{quoted}

Or the fact that mages are ccing me from fog of war so I can’t move anyway

item 3140

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=0002000200000001,timestamp=2019-03-21T00:28:23.836+0000)

item 3140

Oh right, the enemy team only has one CC spell, so I’m good now.

INoble KnightI3 votes

{quoted}

Oh right, the enemy team only has one CC spell, so I’m good now.

I didn't say it'll solve all your problems. Just that one.

HateDaddy4 votes

[{quoted}](name=INoble KnightI,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=000200020000000100000000,timestamp=2019-03-21T00:52:48.811+0000)

I didn't say it'll solve all your problems. Just that one.

I don’t think you play many front liners

Tahminatrix 1 votes

You cant avoid skillshots if you are playing a tank who is meant to get up close and constantly pause to use your own abilities.

And goodluck trying to dodge point and clicks...

MrFawknSunshine3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Super Cow Swag,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EYNhMcWk,comment-id=00020003,timestamp=2019-03-21T01:14:46.732+0000)

You cant avoid skillshots if you are playing a tank who is meant to get up close and constantly pause to use your own abilities.

And goodluck trying to dodge point and clicks...

yet as a tank i can get upwards 150+ mr and tenacity and have hp pools to sustain any skill shots i get hit with. and most tanks have some form of engage/gap close

as a maokai otp with 1million mastery points on him. his W makes him untargetable so he can dodge the skill shot and cc the mage with the void staff.

and it seems to washed over most people that my comment was made in satire wasnt an actual solution to the issue of having too much penetration that negates defensive stats that you may build in game. such as magic pen and armor pen flat and %

let alone the hybrd on hit damage that is nearly impossible to build against.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

well you only have to worry about all of your MR being nullified if you get hit with spells.

if you dont get hit with spells you dont need any MR

"Just don't ever get hit XD"

Are we really having this argument again in 2019?

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

{quoted}

"Just don't ever get hit XD"

Are we really having this argument again in 2019?

we as in you and me? or as in general ? and my comment was made in satire which most people didnt pick up on.

Lovelle1 votes

{quoted}

we as in you and me? or as in general ? and my comment was made in satire which most people didnt pick up on.

That's a very difficult thing to pick up on in boards, as most of the time people are serious when they say things like that.

Moonscourge5 votes

33 magic pen is almost entirely negated by a 450g purchase that builds into some of the best items in the game.

Void Staff is not even gold efficient unless a target has a certain amount of MR. It is built as a 4th item usually, since more AP is almost always better. At that stage every Assassin will have his flat pen and is perfectly capable of overkilling people so much that they don't have to invest in LW, since their targets aren't going to cross the armor threshold that they need. ADCs are perfectly comfortable just buying more AD and Crit, LW is rarely necessary.

Mages are in fact the only class that ALWAYS has to get their %pen item. In case you didn't know: Auto attacks > spells in anything but range and a class that is gated by cooldowns because their auto attacks are basically non existant is worthless for several seconds every time they've used their spells.

VoraciousX4 votes

Why are we complaining about mages having 40% magic pen whereas AD champions have 35% and this works with their auto attacks AND most abilities?

TehNACHO2 votes

{quoted}

(which negates half of a big ticket MR Item by itself)

Minor nitpick. The math works out to make Flat Penetration negated by MR, not the other way around.

HateDaddy4 votes

{quoted}

Minor nitpick. The math works out to make Flat Penetration negated by MR, not the other way around.

Doesn’t matter, it’s effectively the same thing

TehNACHO3 votes

Wha-no. It's literally the opposite thing.

Eedat2 votes
  • flat mpen negates half the MR from a MR item

  • MR negates flat mpen

They are both correct. Really just depends on which agenda you want to push tbh

TehNACHO3 votes

Except that the first point is just incorrect. MR is cheaper per resistance, Flat Pen suffers relative to high Resistance Values, and Riot renamed Flat Armor Pen into Lethality specifically to help avoid that misconception. There's no agenda on the table, it's just facts and basic math.

Eedat6 votes

The first statement is 100% correct. In fact, the entire and sole purpose of magic pen is to negate MR. That is literally its only purpose.

Votable Jester11 votes

item 3020 + item 3165 = 4100 gold

item 3065 = 2800 gold.

item 3065 overwhelmingly beats the flat mpen, and the hp from it helps against burst (more than dps), the most abundant form of magic damage.

I do think they could afford to make tank items have higher stats in general and cost a bit more though.

Sirsir1 votes

item 3020 + item 3916 = 2700

item 3165 doesn't give more pen, just Wounds

Votable Jester2 votes

Oh wow, for another 100g, the tank item gets more mr, hp, cdr, and a healing bonus. The Ap buyer on the other hand gets some movespeed, 20 AP, and 200 HP

Overall tank item is 100 more gold for: 250 more health, 10% CDR, 22 mr beyond canceling the mpen, health regen, healing passive

That seems pretty reasonable. Hell, item 3111 cancels all but 8 mpen from both item 3916 and item 3020.

3TWarrior2 votes

technically it doesn't even need to be item 3111 since item 1033 is its base component and 650 gold cheaper

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