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If Lee Sin is god tier in this jungle, its time to admit Lee Sin is a problem

HateDaddy··127 votes·8,580 views

And not blame it on metas forcing other junglers out, poor itemization making other junglers weak and so on.

The truth is, we won't be able to determine this until competitive play starts back up. From a solo queue stand point, Lee Sin has always remained below a 50% winrate. However, keep in mind he has a ridiculously high pick rate and ban rate, which should be alarming in its own right but thats not enough to condemn a champion to death. Although its been done in the past to several other junglers.

The point is this: this is the 3rd major jungle change we've seen. This change goes above and beyond anything we've seen. This jungle is more about strategic approach, considering routes matters now. Objective control is still important but its enhanced in gameplay times a million now.

Yes I know, Warwick is an abomination right now but Riot correctly forecasted that he would likely be a problem. After his changes and with competitive play starting up soon, we are going to see whats really strong. In my mind, all indications suggest Lee Sin is still a god tier jungler but I will want to see more than just my suspicions to prove that. And if he is, Riot, after all the major changes we've seen to the jungle the past 4 seasons, its time to admit Lee Sin is a serious problem in this game. Because history tells us when Lee Sin is good, he dicates whats good in the jungle (I.E something that can keep up with him until its brutally nerfed). And if Lee does that again, theres nothing in the world you can do to change that except address Lee Sin for real this time.

153 Comments

Knight SoIaire 41 votes

let me fix it for you

"if lee sin is god tier in every jungle it means that lee sin is the problem "

whatever items there are, whatever strenght do camps posses, whatever is other junglers power, lee sin is always staying at the top

my personal opinion is that its fault of his overly flexible kit that scales up with skill in medium elo lee is barely medicore because he fails off late and is realy unreliable (miss a q and gank failed, die once and you have no game) while in high elo lee pulls of every gank and doesnt fall off, he switches role from assasin to a support and his kit allows that

hence he is always god tier jungler in lcs, he just offers more for a price of skill that lcs players can pay

MrSexyHobo1 votes

garen rapes lee in a 1v1. that being said garen is a C- when it comes to jungling

Azlagor3 votes

just that garren sucks at prettymuch everything else as a jungler, and he can't force lee to an 1v1, so even that barly helps him...

57740961_DEL3 votes

let me fix it for you

"if lee sin is god tier in every jungle it means that lee sin is the problem "

whatever items there are, whatever strenght do camps posses, whatever is other junglers power, lee sin is always staying at the top

my personal opinion is that its fault of his overly flexible kit that scales up with skill in medium elo lee is barely medicore because he fails off late and is realy unreliable (miss a q and gank failed, die once and you have no game) while in high elo lee pulls of every gank and doesnt fall off, he switches role from assasin to a support and his kit allows that

hence he is always god tier jungler in lcs, he just offers more for a price of skill that lcs players can pay

Ganks don't always fail if you miss a Q, in fact initiating with a ward hop W is often much more reliable than trying to land a Q for shorter distances or when they're behind a creep wave.

Kharn Skyshatter20 votes

I expect a slap on the wrist more than anything. It seems when anything that isn't Lee Sin is strong in the jungle they will get nerfed hard.

MarhsallLee6718 votes

"Bad Lee Sin! Your Q base damage is lowered by 1 point. You better learn your lesson!" -rito

Shacos Day Off2 votes

I expect a slap on the wrist more than anything. It seems when anything that isn't Lee Sin is strong in the jungle they will get nerfed hard.

Yeah pretty sad that Warwick was strong for a minute, and he got 4 straight Bs nerds. Longer Cd, Ult damage reduction, W reduction, Ult damage reduction again. I used to build golem and straight tank, no damage on warwick and still got fed every game. I never needed feral or blade.

Yet, Lee sin has multiple movie trilogies and he is still as strong as ever.... Hell they even hard nerfed sejuani....

GuiltyGecko17 votes

On your competitive play point, OGN has already started playing preseason pro games. Lee-Sin is picked in almost every other game.

2pudge1cup16 votes

Riot, the first step to recovery is admitting u have a problem.

MarhsallLee6713 votes

"I'm rito and I'm addicted to Lee Sin."

Wise Squirrel15 votes

I've always hated how Lee Sin has frustrating levels of mobility along with his Q execution damage (Dives in with Q, kills your ally, you CC him under tower, tower shoots him, he Ws away with a sliver of HP anyways using a ward).

Let's just gut him already, Lee Sin's kit is more frustrating to play against than it is fun to abuse it. The design of his kit is a horrible foundation in itself, he has no mana problems, low cooldowns, two forms of mobility, TWO, and one can be used to run away. Either weaken his damage, or make his mobility an all in (Don't elt him run away if oops his Q didn't go as he expected).

enters fit of rage

Azlagor14 votes

OGN already plays on 4.2, and Lee actually has a higher priority for them than WW, which should tell a whole lot about how balanced lee is in skilled hands(and howmuch beyond broken he was befor all the nerfs^^)

LankPants2 votes

hasn't he been picked 12 games out of 12?

Poorly Dressed13 votes

Of course he falls off when you build Sightstone and Randuins after a jungle item, what do you expect? He still deals tons of damage when you consider his item path, and when he actually builds damage, he get's ridiculously strong with his absurd ratios!

Orangesilk9 votes

The problem isn't just that Lee Sin is too strong or whatever, he is unhealthy because when Lee Sin is strong, he not only dictates what junglers are viable, but also what LANERS are viable. Specially in top lane, there's a lot of champions with good laning phases, strong teamfights and so on that just aren't viable because their lack of mobility means that they just get swallowed up by Lee if they attempt to be a bit dominant in lane.

You all complain about the ranged toplane meta and what not, but Lee Sin is one of the main causes of the stale toplane meta, a ranged champion with cc that can escape a Lee, and farm far away from the minion line to be safe from fast ganks is what makes people like Lulu powerful and keeps guys like Cho'Gath completely obsolete (as far as competitive is concerned). No matter how many ranged toplaners you nerf, this game has plenty of AP casters that can go top and take their place (toplane is where midlane rejects go after all) and this will NOT change unless the exceedingly strong gank junglers get appropiate nerfs (not in their ganking power, but in giving up SOMETHING for their lane presence, more like Shaco).

Same goes for the midlane meta, extremely safe long range waveclearers like Xerath and Ziggs are a consequence of living in a world where you can get flash ganked and kicked into the middle of the lane by being a bit out of position.

Lee Sin affects much more than just the jungle meta, and, while I'd rather not diminish his gank potential, I'd like a strong ganker like him to give up something for his insane presence, just like Shaco sacrifices his lategame.

ThePlasticSpork8 votes

It seems Riot's stance on Lee Sin is that too many people will cry if they actually make him a reasonably healthy and balanced champion. I don't think it necessary to mention how absurd that stance is - but alas - the statement that all Riot cares about is eSports seems frighteningly true.

The guy has either been the best jungler or one of the best junglers for around 4 seasons now. Most champions make it a season if they're lucky, and most are changed after a few months. For whatever reason, whenever a jungler arises that can compete with Lee Sin, they are nerfed into the floor and Lee Sin remains king. Kha'Zix competing with Lee? Nerfed. Elise competing with Lee? Nerfed. Vi? Same treatment. You get where this is going.

Riot seems to deliberately do the exact opposite of what they should do in regards to Lee Sin. Rather than make Lee Sin a more reasonably controllable champion, they nerf all of his competition so he can continue to be the best jungler. It's time for Lee to take a break from the top tier. It was time for him to take a break last season, and the season before that.

Fuck this champion.

2pudge1cup6 votes

I have to point out how amusing it is that the one person defending lee sin just spams "1v1 me bro."

Prowlexe6 votes

The most ironic and obnoxious thing for me about the BIGPLAY$$ is that I've gotten sick of seeing the same thing every single damn time.

Sure, the first time I witnessed a Lee ward jump ultimate, I was pretty impressed and excited. Except, like I said, it's always the same thing...

Q in, ward jump out. Q, R, Q. Ward jump, Ult. Ward jump over a wall. Kite, run around in circles, Q.

It might never get old for some people, which is fair...but personally I don't find that fun or exciting at all. I'd be much more interested in pros picking a niche or personal champ and seeing that instead. (Which I know realistically isn't going to happen, since it's a competitive scene and not picking Lee Sin when you have the opportunity to is basically shooting yourself in the foot.) Oh well. You could say most champions have predictable play patterns to them anyways. I'm just tired of the FLASHY LCS LEE PLAYZ. They're trivialized and old as hell, especially after seeing it for years on end.

AbodyHUN6662 votes

We really should find him a niche and make him strong in it. His problem is not only that how strong he is, but it's a lot more easy to learn a single champion who fits every team comp than learning 4-5 champs to fit those teams and risk the enemy to be more skilled with his single versatile champ.

Kobold2 votes

Isn't that why they are reworking my GP? he is too versatile/generalist in role and that is what they said they don't want champions to be is a generalist?

AbodyHUN6663 votes

I didn't know about this being the reason behind it, but yeah, generalists let us get away with learning only a few champions which isn't good for diversity. This being said I don't think League will ever have an Invoker like champion.

AetherKingdom5 votes

Lee sin isn't fucking OP. Holy shit you guys will never let it go. You can invade him at any time in his jungle and HE WILL DIE to you.

Just Jangle35 votes

Lee sin isn't fucking OP. Holy shit you guys will never let it go. You can invade him at any time in his jungle and HE WILL DIE to you.

Are you talking about Bronze V Lee Sins that cant even aim his Q? If that's the case i agree with you.

But if you try to invade him you probably dies, he is one of the highest damage dealers early game with the obscene damage in that Q.

But "muuuh skill shot, muuuh high skillcap".

AetherKingdom3 votes

Or you're just bad.

MarhsallLee6711 votes

You're level 14. Either you're a smurf and your main account is Bronze or you have next to no real experience in League.

Direwolfiez3 votes

Actually invaded a Lee one game with my entire team, killed one of his team members and him after he burned smite on red and tried to get out of there. He rage-quit...it was a glorious moment. Early red for ADC = enemy team is boned.

But yes, I get just how hard a mobile champ like Lee is to pin down, even early game. Only reason the invade I'm talking about worked is because it was a 5v3 and it came out of nowhere. A smart Lee is infinitely harder to catch than almost any other champ, save LB or Kalista.

Kowe The Ewok8 votes

You must be a horrible Lee Sin player. Lee can always wardjump and shield himself. At level 6 he can simply kick you away. Before level 6 there is no jungler who has enough CC and DPS to chase him with his slow, jumps and shield.

(Or he simply fights/kills you with his insane attackspeed and burst)

AetherKingdom3 votes

wow a 40 health shield omg. And if you really think no junglers out dps lee you are horrible at jungle in general.

AbsoluteSadman4 votes

captain bronze 5 defending the fact that he gets invaded and dies every game

AetherKingdom1 votes

You're bronze 1. You have no understanding of this game whatsoever .

not a starburst15 votes

...says the level 14. You're literally below Bronze. You're worse than the people who you claim have no understanding of this game. Don't even try to justify your mistakes. Because there's no chance I'm taking you seriously at this point.

AetherKingdom1 votes

[deleted]

The Red Warden5 votes

What is your actual account then? Lets see its rank if you truly arn't bronze.

AetherKingdom1 votes

1v1 if you want my skill level.

Direwolfiez11 votes

refuses to post smurf main

"fite me online, scrub, I reck you"

thinks 1v1s prove anything

lol

AetherKingdom1 votes

I am posting on my smurf. This whole thing is online. But if you wanna fight IRL, I can give you my college address and building/Room number. If you want to fight irl, bring that shit, if you dont, shut your pussy ass up. 1v1 does prove things, and thinking it doesn't is an excuse for being bad. lol.

HateDaddy7 votes

I am posting on my smurf. This whole thing is online. But if you wanna fight IRL, I can give you my college address and building/Room number. If you want to fight irl, bring that shit, if you dont, shut your pussy ass up. 1v1 does prove things, and thinking it doesn't is an excuse for being bad. lol.

Direwolfiez13 votes

Thank you for correcting my mistake <3

Yeah, because I'd totally blow a large amount of money and waste my time just to get the opportunity to kick your ass. Are you that hyper-masculine that you're seriously picking a fight with someone that could potentially seriously hurt you? You don't know me. For all you know, I'm a serial killer that has just found his next victim. I'm not, obviously, but giving out your address to people online is just so dumb it's not even funny.

1v1s don't prove anything at all. LoL is a team game. You could just pick someone that is extremely easy to play, or that ROTFLstomps without much effort. That would, in no way, prove who is the better player. If you wanted to do that, you'd have to play the same champ, compare CS, determine who has better mechanics, etc. You can't do that in a 1v1. Pretty obvious.

Knight SoIaire 6 votes

besides the fact that you cant trade a lee sin either he jumps away or hits you with q from a far or you are low enough for him to go all in

i just cant think of any champion that would be able to close the gap 3 times in short succesion early
and you need 3 gap closers to close the gap for the first time, when he ward hops and when he flashes

if you run away he can just chase you and still keep the goddamn range with q

its a flexibility that makes lee soo good, with proper skill and thinking he has a realy reliable way of doing anything he needs -you cant land q ? use a ward hop

  • you got invaded by someone stronger ? create a gap with ward hop and poke with q till the time when he can go in and kill you
  • you fall off late? do an insec kick and be still realy usefull

find whatever situation you want lee always has something that is just good for that situation ofc the skill is the price

AetherKingdom2 votes

Except you can trade with Lee Sin. Why don't you try it next time before saying "Omg its fookin lee sin i have to run because i insta die if i go near him". You'd be suprised with the results. If he is using the Q to escape, he has no damage. If he kicks you away, that a team fight the enemy lee has lost his use. Lee Sin Q also isn't hard to dodge unless you're standing right on top of him. Also, Lee Sin's first part of his Q is useless without his second part, and the cooldown isn't as low as you act it is. If he's simply throwing q's, fucking ignore him. Wow Lee isn't 100% useless late game better fucking nerf him for it. Other champions can be much more useful than Lee Sin late.

God this topic is stupider than those idiots who think Lee Sin is tanky.

Budupops9 votes

Lol your the worst player i've ever seen on the forums

AetherKingdom1 votes

Ok. 1v1 me then if you don't suck shit

Gingivits2 votes

Ok. 1v1 me then if you don't suck shit

Wait, this is a call of duty forum? shit then 1v1 me rust qs only n00b.

Rufus Crabmiser1 votes

The only one's who make fun of 1v1 are bads who probably will lose.

HateDaddy3 votes

The only one's who make fun of 1v1 are bads who probably will lose.

The fuck are you talking about

AbsoluteSadman4 votes

woah dude, your spelling is way too accurate to be a call of duty player.

Rhlax5 votes

to be fair Riot knows that lee sin is op and tried to nerf him this year.. but the community wasnt too happy about it and pro players even defended lee sin as the 'most balanced champion in the game'.... im talking about lcs players defending the most popular picked jungler in the lcs... and there is a reason for that.

when it comes to lee sin, he is the problem and the solution... nerfing lee sin would make other junglers more viable for sure... but the problem is that not everyone wants to play the other junglers... most champions in league is just too dang boring and one dimensional... lee sin's high popularity also has a lot to do with the fact that he is fun to play...

at the end of day lee sin is not a simple black and white problem... there is a lot of deeper issues when it comes to lee sin..like game design level of discussions... like how fast/mobile should champs be? one thing for sure, there is no pleasing everyone

HateDaddy11 votes

to be fair Riot knows that lee sin is op and tried to nerf him this year.. but the community wasnt too happy about it and pro players even defended lee sin as the 'most balanced champion in the game'.... im talking about lcs players defending the most popular picked jungler in the lcs... and there is a reason for that.

when it comes to lee sin, he is the problem and the solution... nerfing lee sin would make other junglers more viable for sure... but the problem is that not everyone wants to play the other junglers... most champions in league is just too dang boring and one dimensional... lee sin's high popularity also has a lot to do with the fact that he is fun to play...

at the end of day lee sin is not a simple black and white problem... there is a lot of deeper issues when it comes to lee sin..like game design level of discussions... like how fast/mobile should champs be? one thing for sure, there is no pleasing everyone

Pro players are morons when it comes to balance. They openly say they play the most OP things in the game because its the best chance of winning - nobody faults them for this, money is on the line and this is competition. But when Lee Sin is in every game and has been nerfed as much as he has been, theres a problem.

You cant say we spam OPs to win but the suddenly say "yeah but Lee isn't OP!" How is it that a long list of junglers, who are OP at their times, get nerfed to hell and Lee is still god tier when they are until they are nerfed. Of course pros will say hes balanced, hes basically every good junglers crutch - and I dont mean that in a way to demean their skills, i say that because its true. Theres a reason every top jungler in the world mains him. Consider this, as I noted above, Lee Sin is historically the most nerfed champion in this game. And. Hes. Still. God. Tier. Think about that and let it sink in. What the actual fuck, right? Its because he has too much stuff and it allows him to dictate the jungle and its meta. If thats not OP, I don't know what is.

And further to that point, pros are paid to play, not balance. I respect their knowledge but lets not pretend they cant be wrong. How many times has doublelift said adcs will be trash tier hurrr. He even said it as recent as the BT and IE changes while ignoring the fact randuins got destroyed, ghostblade got mega buffed for carries and botrk is still overpowered as shit on anything ranged. Pros can be wrong and more importantly can be bias.

21198243_DEL3 votes

Lee has tons of mobility which makes him very popular. 46% win ratio in plat NA, i think it is fair. He has low win ratio because after all those nerfs he finally needs skills to be good and you can say whatever you want but i will never believe that, champion who you use first time and you have positive k/d is a champion who "require skill". Before anyone who play lee sin had positive k/d, and skilled ones were terribly op, now finally he requires brain to build and and skill, because you are lost without it. At my gold elo i see pure dmg leesins and they wonder why they lose games....

I think lee is okay now and he will lose his popularity over time and other champion will take his place and will be found as top tier op (actually my bet is sejuani)

Orangesilk7 votes

Sejuani got preemptively nerfed this patch so that no one may even risk Lee Sin having competition.

WW got a total of ONE patch of being insanely strong to get himself nerfed, unlike Lee who has been at it for YEARS.

Lee Sin is not balanced because "His winrate means he requires skill", think of it this way, a bad Lee Sin is basically dead weight, or even bad for the team (If you have ever been saved by a kick from a stupid Lee Sin trying to steal a kill raise your hand), on the other hand, a good Lee Sin, which is less common, will completely stomp your team, deny your jungler, and turn the first 20 minutes of the game into a living nightmare, is this balanced?. NO, THIS NOT BALANCED, because my 10-people game should not by any means be determined by the skill of a single player on a difficult champion.

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