Olaf's R is always cited as the reason he can't be truly balanced or viable

Kingsgrave··18 votes·2,081 views

I don't think this is the case.

Kayle can ignore Damage for a duration and is seen as completely fine. Why? Her kit isn't broken on it's own.

It's his R + THE REST OF HIS KIT not just the R alone.

Lets look at his kit:

P: Offensive stat that punishes the enemy for damaging Olaf and rewards him for taking damage

Q: Ranged Slow nuke that either stomps them 100% of the time or 0% of the time because of how a spammable slow works

W: Activate for free stats that scales with how much damage you took

E: Spammable true damage that scales with AD

R: Free Armor/MR that turns into a massive amount of AD when Activated

Conclusion: His kit was made to be unbeatable. They gave him thing after thing to patch up weaknesses without giving him a real strength. His strength is that he has no real weakness that other Melees don't have. What is his weakness? He is kiteable. What are his strengths? insert list of 12+ things that are super general

Why does this matter?

What does becoming Immune to CC do? It makes it so you can't be stopped or kited and so you can get off your damage without being destroyed

Why is this a problem on Olaf's kit?

His entire purpose as a character is to run forward and kill you. A skilled Olaf is only one that caught up to the guy, not one who used his abilities in a strategic manner. I don't really see how in the world that could be called skilled for any modern design of a Champion. His entire success is based on whether or not he could catch the enemy, aka whether or not the enemy was bad enough that he/she let Olaf catch them. So skilled.

Either he succeeds with minimal counterplay or he doesn't and he falls completely flat on his face. Instead of being centered around Relentlessness and skilled usage of Axes and combat, his Q is only there to slow them and his R is only there for him to catch you.

Conversely, a Kayle kit that was centered around her R instead of her R serving her kit would be very different. It would probably look at like a Ranged Poppy. Kayle doesn't use her R to dive an entire team and ignore basic principles of the game, she uses it the re-position. Olaf uses his R to be Olaf. This is the major difference.

**What would a Relentless Berserker kit look like if it were centered around his Q rather than his R? **

P: Autoattacks and Axes give a Health Shield that lasts 4 seconds that stacks up to 12 times. Scales with Total AD per shield stack. No internal CD.

Q: Axe throw with a charge system. Axes can be picked up after tossed. Max 2/3/4/5/6 charges. Less damage than on Live. CD inbetween charges is longer than Live CD but Axes are more visible and last a lot longer than on live. Speed, CD and damage of Axes directly scale with Attack Speed. Axes also apply On hit effects and Crit at a % value based on rank.

W: Dashes to an Axe at a fast speed, knocking aside and damaging all targets he runs thru. Passively gains flat MS when running towards an Axe. Cannot be interrupted or stopped by either Olaf or an Enemy. Can cast QER while dashing.

E: Summons the Wrath of the Gods to strike all live Qs with Lightning dealing AoE damage and Slowing to units within the range of the Axes. Slowing field remains briefly after the strike.

R: Passive shield values doubled, tosses multiple Qs per cast, W speed increased and E AoE Slow and Range increased. Additionally, breaks free of all CC upon cast.

32 Comments

NemeBro11 votes

I'd rather play the current sort of shitty Olaf than the one you've proposed, to be honest.

Doctor Dyment1 votes

Yeah. Olaf's entire identity is based around all the "flaws" that this guy just mentioned. If you remove all that, he is no longer Olaf. He is "Mad Axe Wielding Viking #2000."

Narasimha6 votes

On one hand, I like it.

On the other hand, its not Olaf. Its just some other axe wielding berserker. For better or for worse, Olaf's defining ability is the core of Ragnarok, the ability to remove and ignore CC. That's what makes Olaf...well, Olaf. It'd be like Annie without Tibbers, Yi without Highlander, Darius without the dunks. It can work. But its not the same guy anymore.

Catastrop5 votes

The Olaf rework that you suggested sounds cool to be honest. I wouldn't mind either seeing that exact rework on Olaf or an another champion entirely.

Rinky Dinky4 votes

Implying Juggling Axes whilst still autoing to reach maximum damage output on Olaf does not take mechanical skill.

Slamurai Jack4 votes

Olaf, and every other bruiser with no gap closer has alot more nuance than you give them credit for. It takes a lot of experience to know not only when to go in and whether or not you even can. I see so many Mundo's, Olaf's, and Shyvana's fail so hard because they try to dive when they simply can't, and they make themselves useless. They may be rather simple champions mechanically but their decision making is actually rather complicated. You have to know how much peel the enemy team has, how many escapes your intended target has, you have to keep track of all those tools, all while figuring out what you ought to be doing until the moment to go in arrives.

Schenix3 votes

I actually really really like that new E idea you have.

The W (which would probably be the E, and the E, the W), seems awkward. Also gives him huge burst rather than being at AA range to whale on you. Would redo that.

Passive might need clarification (i.e. cd)

I do feel if you're changing Axes that way, it would need to be the same or just very little less than live version damage on Axe as it his main idea and damage in lane. If not, then the slow should still apply to Q, but enhanced in your E.


I agree with most of what you said on Olaf, which is rare since I hardly fully agree with most people on changing champion kits. Very well said imo from you on his problems. It is a refreshingly clear way of looking at it.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

I actually really really like that new E idea you have.

The W (which would probably be the E, and the E, the W), seems awkward. Also gives him huge burst rather than being at AA range to whale on you. Would redo that.

Passive might need clarification (i.e. cd)

I do feel if you're changing Axes that way, it would need to be the same or just very little less than live version damage on Axe as it his main idea and damage in lane. If not, then the slow should still apply to Q, but enhanced in your E.


I agree with most of what you said on Olaf, which is rare since I hardly fully agree with most people on changing champion kits. Very well said imo from you on his problems. It is a refreshingly clear way of looking at it.

The W and E can be used at the same time so you can get close to someone. The counterplay is that he is set on a trajectory.

Q deals less damage than on live per Axe. I already had that part in there.

Passive I cleaned up a bit.

Schenix1 votes

I was saying Q should either deal the same, or still have the slow apply.

And the E slows, so the W dash would get them regardless. Might need to clarify the slow amount and the hitbox.

Kingsgrave3 votes

{quoted}

I was saying Q should either deal the same, or still have the slow apply.

And the E slows, so the W dash would get them regardless. Might need to clarify the slow amount and the hitbox.

Yo its a conceptual rework, I'm not going to waste time focusing on numbers because people will just get overly attached to them and ignore the concepts.

Schenix1 votes

I don't have much else to focus on though since I agree with the core argument lol

Sire Hippington3 votes

His entire success is based on whether or not he could catch the enemy, aka whether or not the enemy was bad enough that he/she let Olaf catch them. So skilled.

so you think olaf is a noob champ that requiers no skill? How comes he has the biggest %win difference between new players and eperienced onces in the game if he has such a low skill-expression? Jungle olaf with 1-5 games: 46.4% win, jungle olaf with 125+ games: 61.7% win, so 15.3% difference, azir, who is deemed to be one of the highest skillcap champs in the game, has a 13.7% difference.( http://champion.gg/champion/Olaf/Jungle ) also, his winrate on Diamond is just as good as in bronze, if he wuld rely on enemie mistakes, one would asume his bronze winrate is higher than the diamond winrate... There is a bit more to olaf than just running towards an enemie...

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EW86vKQL,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-07-11T13:02:12.025+0000)

so you think olaf is a noob champ that requiers no skill? How comes he has the biggest %win difference between new players and eperienced onces in the game if he has such a low skill-expression? Jungle olaf with 1-5 games: 46.4% win, jungle olaf with 125+ games: 61.7% win, so 15.3% difference, azir, who is deemed to be one of the highest skillcap champs in the game, has a 13.7% difference.( http://champion.gg/champion/Olaf/Jungle ) also, his winrate on Diamond is just as good as in bronze, if he wuld rely on enemie mistakes, one would asume his bronze winrate is higher than the diamond winrate... There is a bit more to olaf than running towards an enemie...

Dude literally every champion's winrate improves based on games played.

Sire Hippington3 votes

just that the differece for most champs, especially 'easy' champs, is far lower. Shy has a ~6% difference, renekton has ~4%, annie has ~4%, cait has ~2.5%, champins that are usually are seen as high skillcap have a higher difference: yasuo ~11%, zed ~8.5%, cassio ~10%, riven 9% olaf has 15%... Thats so much more differnece than most other champions, which relates to a really high skillcap on him.

Kingsgrave2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=EW86vKQL,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-07-11T13:19:48.370+0000)

just that the differece for most champs, especially 'easy' champs, is far lower. Shy has a ~6% difference, renekton has ~4%, annie has ~4%, cait has ~2.5%, champins that are usually are seen as high skillcap have a higher difference: yasuo ~11%, zed ~8.5%, cassio ~10%, riven 9% olaf has 15%... Thats so much more differnece than most other champions, which relates to a really high skillcap on him.

That doesn't mean high skillcap. It just means the more you play with him the easier it is to win with him.

Imo, such a large increase would mean that players of Olaf realize more ways to abuse the enemy and get around his bad design. This has nothing to do with skill at playing Olaf, just skill at playing League.

Olaf also has so few tools to deal with threats that a starting Olaf player would be shit out of luck trying to win with him unless he knew how to win with him reliably. That doesn't make him take skill, that just means he has less than most and is severely nerfed.

TheRakkun3 votes

That Q W E and sounds like a certain bird I know Azir

I love it

SEKAI2 votes

Olaf's ulti is like a better version of Tryndamere's overall, but Olaf doesn't have a reliable gapcloser like the spins nor are his axes visibly better than Trynd's shouts.

They both are problematic in their own ways but I wouldn't necessarily believe they're broken by default.

The only reason why Riot believes they can not be balanced is because they are both incredibly reliant on their items, and Riot has a history of item balance fk ups so you get the idea. It's not these 2 guys' fault, it's actually Riot's clear incompetence in certain areas that forced Olaf into his sad viking state.

At least thankfully they haven't got around doing the same to Trynd.

Kingsgrave1 votes

{quoted}

Olaf's ulti is like a better version of Tryndamere's overall, but Olaf doesn't have a reliable gapcloser nor is his axes visibly better than Trynd's shouts.

They both are problematic in their own ways but I wouldn't necessarily believe they're broken by default.

The only reason why Riot believes they can not be balanced is because they are both incredibly reliant on their items, and Riot has a history of item balance fk ups so you get the idea. It's not these 2 guys' fault, it's actually Riot's clear incompetence in certain areas that forced Olaf into his sad viking state.

Yes, but I still feel like Olaf would benefit from a kit that was more focused on plays rather than flat stats.

It works for Trynd because he is a melee carry. Olaf is a Fighter/Tank, so he can't have that same style of ultimate.

PiRoScOuT2 votes

Morgana has the same problem, or had the same problem. Back when we saw here support every game due to the black shield. Then Riot nerfed her twice, the cool down on the shield, and later the pushing power of the tormented soil. This is because the shield makes a person cc immune, as long as it is up.

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

Morgana has the same problem, or had the same problem. Back when we saw here support every game due to the black shield. Then Riot nerfed her twice, the cool down on the shield, and later the pushing power of the tormented soil. This is because the shield makes a person cc immune, as long as it is up.

With Morgana I think it's more okay because she is an immobile utility mage. Olaf is a duelist who can build full tank and still outdamage most.

Sire Hippington2 votes

if morgana could only shield her self, that argument could count(though olaf is a imobile melee and prone to kiteing with low inherent tankiness if he can't constatnly AA for lifesteal...) However, if a master Yi or Vayne arives with a black shield, things get serious...

LilxPaprika2 votes

EDIT: this is what i'd propose you do to divert attention away from his ult to focus on the rest of his kit.

I think the free passive defensive stats on his r are a bit strong too. What if it was cut in half but he got to keep it while ulting. his extra damage from ult would also be cut in half.

RESISTANCES: 10 / 20 / 30 ATTACK DAMAGE: 40 / 60 / 80

to RESISTANCES: 5 / 10 / 15 (kept while ulting) ATTACK DAMAGE: 20 / 30 / 40

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

I think the free passive defensive stats on his r are a bit strong too. What if it was cut in half but he got to keep it while ulting. his extra damage from ult would also be cut in half.

That's just a straight up nerf in every possible way. He is already at a pretty shitty winrate.

LilxPaprika2 votes

{quoted}

That's just a straight up nerf in every possible way. He is already at a pretty shitty winrate.

Thats the whole point of this thread. Read title. (lol wait your the op. facepalm) fix his ult to give him back his old stats on qwe (Reverted enough to get buffed overall but not op)

Maybe didnt make myself clear you address the ult, to allow for room to fix the rest of his kit. if like you said the ult gets in the way.

Icestar11861 votes

Well, some Kayles use it to dive a team... ^.^'

Gunpoint1 votes

I really, really, really, like this.

Mob Psycho 1001 votes

I like how this kit revolves around his Q, yet it's not broken stupid. About his E, if you run toward an axe, he'll ignore unit collision?

Salidfingers1 votes

I am bias since i play olaf top all the time.

I love his kit as is.

TheWolfSage1 votes

I love how a champ that ignores CC is considered a problem, but a champ that ignores death is fine.

Tryndamere

HaxProdigy1 votes

I actually really like that idea

HaxProdigy1 votes

Rito do this!. I am a Olaf main and I really like this idea but maybe with a few tweaks

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