Can someone explain it to me?
Just finished getting rank 7 Kayn my last game, and I have 50+ games on him, so I know how both forms work... and while Red is a god at sustained fighting and chunking tanks/bruisers, blue can just pop out of the wall, literally delete your carry, and disappear again within a couple seconds (assuming you land your W).
The forms have different strengths, but I wouldn't say either one is bad.
TEA Nietzsche 2 votesNew champions in general are really really weak and start with a ~43% winrate (even those that turn out OP). Shadow Assassin Kayn is just pretty balanced and therefore people can't play him successfully. But Darkin Kayn is OP which is why Kayn overall has a 47% winrate (imagine we'd take the winrate of Darkin only..).
The difference in strength makes SA Kayn seem weaker than he actually is which will result in Kayn getting nerfs over the next few patches.
Niyumi1 votesWell yeah, I get that, but whenever I go blue form (if their team is full of squishies, yeah?) people act as if I'm throwing, and even if I'm massively carrying (many games I go 10+/2ish), people attribute it to luck or them playing bad rather than blue Kayn being a legitimate threat.
Need Gold 4 Tent1 votesNote that I am not a Kayn player (yet), but have been trying him out a fair bit. Lethality on SA does really seem to have more damage in burst while Rhaast can keep sustaining through tanky/deaths dance. I can see the advantage there but for me I feel that Rhaast is just overall more useful (even if not fed, you can still go tanky and do what all tanks do, gargoyle locket) since damage is tied to % anyway.
What the problem is in blind pick though, is that the form you will have is not set, but your settings are. Having to sit through 4 more painful minutes of base Kayn just because I went 12/0/18 masteries but ended up laning against Teemo just stinks, coz his early game is already crap as it is. Yet if you just went for whatever came up first, your pre setups wouldn't fit what you planned. I personally want the melee/range seperation out, just enough damage to fill the meter on any champ is enough as it is.
Salron2 votesSA's ult damage is pitiful for what is supposed to be an "assassin"
Niyumi5 votesWell his ult isn't his main source of damage, it's more of a utility spell. His W, Q and passive are.
Try building a Triforce, works wonders with both forms. ^^
five oh tree 2 votesAnd what happens if there's an enchanter with their carries? if your q/w doesn't kill them (assuming it can even land on them with the supp there) you're completely fucked. He has no healing and his escapes/mobility are poor compared to other assassins, such as fizz or kha'zix. He needs the buffs on pbe. Red form has aoe hard cc with a low cooldown, making it infinitely more useful in teamfights.
hhaavviikk1 votesAnd what happens if there's an enchanter with their carries? if your q/w doesn't kill them (assuming it can even land on them with the supp there) you're completely fucked. He has no healing and his escapes/mobility are poor compared to other assassins, such as fizz or kha'zix. He needs the buffs on pbe. Red form has aoe hard cc with a low cooldown, making it infinitely more useful in teamfights.
exactly, if my Q + W +AA + ignite + duskblade + thunderlord proc fails to kill them then I'm screwed, the ult certainly isn't going to, you ult them, which gives them time to lifesteal and when you come out you're forced to dash AWAY from your target, the ult is a mess and nearly useless, it's also bugged, you can still take damage from the tower when ulting, died countless times that way
five oh tree 1 votesThe odds you reach an adc with Kayn's limited mobility as shadow assasssin are poor. They have to misplay. it's a less reliable zed. The damage is fine, but mobility is weak.
Stars Shaper1 votesIt's probably because Rhaast is more pwoerful in teamfights that are easier to happen than isolated kills.
Niyumi1 votesThat's what I'm thinking. Rhaast is just easier to pull off than blue form, so people assume it's better.
Stars Shaper1 votesBlue Kayn is an awesome finisher, his W can delete half hp of a squishy and then chashe him down with the wallwalk.
What ppl find disappointing is that his ultimate deals close to no damage but I believe that Shadow Kayn simply needs it as a safe gap closer and chasing ability.
Niyumi1 votesI don't think of Kayn's ult as damage though. Blue Kayn specifically, I use it to reset my passive. Red Kayn, I use it for the heal. In both forms I use it to stick to someone as they flash or run away, to wait for CDs to come up so I don't die, or to avoid something big shooting at me.
xxxMadLionxxx1 votesI've only been playing shadow kayn and I've had games where I score is like 25-7. I think Rhaast is just easier for most ppl to play as he doesn't die easy and can be played like any other champ while shadow can really has to think of how to approach a fight or he will get blown up.
Trust me, when I started with shadow kayn, I thought he was weak too. I kept ulting and getting carried into 1v4 situations or under enemy towers. The difference is Rhaast might survive those situations but shadow Kayn can't. Rhaast is more forgiving on bad plays.
So I think it's really a matter of shadow Kayn being harder to play. I do think Kayn is weak before he transforms as he doesn't have a passive until like 10-20 minutes in the game.
Leaf on Bush1 votesShadow Assassin is good at actually assassinating squishies, so that is your role in a fight, you have to avoid most tanks and fighters, play smarter, think before you run at something. You can also rotate a lot faster and clear minions faster, which is another plus.
People say blue Kayn is weak because:
Since we are talking about 2 diffrent classes you could also say that VI is a better fighter than Katarina. But that doesn't really mean anything, does it? All those CC and sustain arguments... pretty much wothless.
BLACK REALM GOD1 votespersonally i think blue kayn is stronger. if for no other reason his burst is better. the only reason why people think rhaast is better is because rhaast is easier to achieve in a match as far as transforming goes and he has both a displacement and he also has sustain on most of his abilities.
kayns power in blue form is hard to reach because of the lack of ranged units in the jungle and the lack of ranged champions on the field. then once his form is achieved you have to sacrifice boots in order to make his %bonus magic damage matter as there's no other type of magic penetration kayn can get without wasting the stats. his damage is also double mitigated for his 33% so it really only works on armorless opponents. anything else and you're better off buying LDR or Mortal Reminder.
i agree with your triforce comment though. most people i've talked to have disliked that item in their build, but kayns base damage is ridiculous to not bring triforce.
Raoul1 votesBecause in this game, with this Meta Bruiser >>>>>>>> Assassin.
Big Chungus1 votesThe problem isnt really kayn being too weak, its rhaast being stronger in the current meta, therefor making rhaast tge better pick in moat scenarios. Theyre upping shadow kayns ult damage tomorrow tho so it might alleviate the problem
Ralanr1 votesHonestly I play shadow assassin a little more than Rhaast and I think shadow assassin has more upfront damage that becomes even better with his ult and fervor. I can kinda see why people see Rhaast as better if facing multiple durable champions and with his in combat sustain. But lethality shadow hurts like a motherfucker to squishies.