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[Opinion] Zhonya's should be built out of Large rod ... why was the recipe changed to give it cdr?

redfeenix··1 votes·770 views

I made this post because i STILL think zonyas builds out of large rod sometimes.

Does anyone know why they changed the recipe from item 1058 +item 3191 to item 3108 +item 3191 ?

Personally I think CDR is oversaturated for mages. Every single item has CDR. I get that CDR is important for mages, but not every single top tier Mage item needs it. What was the point of giving it to zonyas. You should be able to sacrifice 10% cdr if you want this strong item.

Personally I thinkitem 1058 is a great item for mages.

I can choose as the game evolves what I wanna build my large rod into ie:

Games a stomp? Build item 3089 Gettin dicked by zed? build item 3157 Team picked all ADs and no CC? Build item 3116 etc

All the top tier Mage items build out of item 1058 and thats cool! I can choose what to build as the game goes on.

However Why does a top tier mage item like zonyas build out of Codex now? Thats like saying the recipe for item 3072 is now item 3144 +item 3133 . Such a strong item doesnt need CDR or any bonus effects. Its good as it is!

So TLDR I think Large rod is an awesome item and the item paths are great. Top tier mage items like hourglass shoudlnt have free cdr and should be built out of large rod again instead of codex.

21 Comments

Handy Sandy 5 votes

It's an hourglass, and hourglass represents time. Time = CDR

redfeenix1 votes

GAH. Cant argue with this.

Vallalan2 votes

they explained it earlier. basically they think zhonya's active is super valuable and anytime the active is tied to a high ap item the item is obscenely expensive and its combine cost is awful. if zhonyas is a 100 ap item again then they will have to make it cost way too much and you literally only ever built it for the active anyway. no one builds armguard for just the armor unless they wanna play super risky vs zed/talon, etc.

so they doubled down on utility. now zhonyas feels good to buy. sure its low ap but you get a great active and a bit of cdr in addition to the defensive stats it gives. it doesnt cost an obscene amount and in one buy you get everything you want.

before it just felt awful.

and they insist that if zhonyas is ever cheaper and high ap like it once was it is a must buy ever single game since the active is invaluable

redfeenix1 votes

Thats a very interesting perspective, especially since its the opposite of my opinion. Thanks for sharing Riot's logic for that change, seems a little weird for me but I guess it makes sense why they did it.

Avienal1 votes

{quoted}

they explained it earlier. basically they think zhonya's active is super valuable and anytime the active is tied to a high ap item the item is obscenely expensive and its combine cost is awful. if zhonyas is a 100 ap item again then they will have to make it cost way too much and you literally only ever built it for the active anyway. no one builds armguard for just the armor unless they wanna play super risky vs zed/talon, etc.

so they doubled down on utility. now zhonyas feels good to buy. sure its low ap but you get a great active and a bit of cdr in addition to the defensive stats it gives. it doesnt cost an obscene amount and in one buy you get everything you want.

before it just felt awful.

and they insist that if zhonyas is ever cheaper and high ap like it once was it is a must buy ever single game since the active is invaluable

The Active alone already has too much ridiculous cheese play that extends beyond what its suppose to be: A Safety net from not being burst down from a Zed, Talon or similar kind of ultimate ability. Champions like Morganna, Fiddlesticks, Kennen and even Heimdinger(Zyra too maybe) for that matter can exploit it to holy high hell level since their ultimates aren't canceled out(Zyra and Heimdinger are understandable but still the same argument with their turret placement abilities) or also frozen during it so they can effectively 'cheese' opponents by flashing on top of an entire team, hit ultimate then zhonyas and then its either get exploded or scatter like crazy. In a team fight that becomes a bad thing todo the latter since you give a perfect opp for for you to get mowed down by the rest of the enemy team while trying to escape from an ultimate that's going to kill you anyway or stun you long enough to where you will get instantly mowed down during the stun, even if your the tank.

Regardless of the CD addition, i really feel they need to rework the active so it negates the champion being able to deal out any damage to enemy champions outside of 'bleed/debuff type of effects' and things like over time or delay burst ultimates or abilities need to be restrained by it or atleast make them not continue counting down till the zhonya's ends(since it would make sense since the champion is effectively 'freezing themselves in time, so really to push that anything like status effect or abilities should also be frozen, obviously mechanic wise that would get silly, but its already silly when a mechanic can get exploited so easily, yet its never given any attention that lets a select few champions out of already a roster of over 100 get to use it and effectively can free nuke targets less those targets have the mobility to weave out of it extremely fast and weave back in to promptly take the enemy champion down.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

shaiith1 votes

Because item 3001 .

redfeenix1 votes

Yeah jeez this item too!

WHY

Why do ALLL the top tier items have CDR? Mages shouldnt need to be balanced around 40% cdr. Yeh you can build CDR if you want to, but I feel like they're trying to force us to max out cdr every game.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

{quoted}

Yeah jeez this item too!

WHY

Why do ALLL the top tier items have CDR? Mages shouldnt need to be balanced around 40% cdr. Yeh you can build CDR if you want to, but I feel like they're trying to force us to max out cdr every game.

They can only fight with skills, and most of them have like a 6-12 second cooldown. Most of the time one combo won't kill them unless you're Cassiopeia or something.

redfeenix1 votes

Right but theres other mage stats than CDR.

Say CDR is the equivalent of attack speed.

Its great sure, but not EVERY AD ITEM gives attack speed. Some just give AD etc. So thats all I'm asking, every top tier MAGE item should not have CDR. Its fine on some of them, but all? Cmon.

Handy Sandy 1 votes

{quoted}

Right but theres other mage stats than CDR.

Say CDR is the equivalent of attack speed.

Its great sure, but not EVERY AD ITEM gives attack speed. Some just give AD etc. So thats all I'm asking, every top tier MAGE item should not have CDR. Its fine on some of them, but all? Cmon.

Burst mages don't really need it because they're burst mages..but sustain damage like Cassiopeia Azir AurelionSol Heimerdinger Karthus would make them even stronger. Some burst mages such as Leblanc could use CDR though depending on the playstyle. Alot of mage items don't have CDR, item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3003 item 3089 item 3285 {{item:3135}

redfeenix1 votes

You know what thats a viable build. Fair enough, you've convinced me that mage items are in a decent state :P

Catastrop1 votes

No thank you, I prefer current Zhonya's, it's much easier to get 40% CDR now on Lissandra and a few others who normally want it but can't afford to dip further into CDR options.

redfeenix1 votes

Right, and I totally get that.

But what i'm saying is that not every single mage item should have CDR. Its okay if SOME items dont have CDR. I think hourglass is a powerful option, and should not have CDR. Instead it should have more AP if anything.

I totally understand where you're comming from. As a mage if every item I buy has CDR, I'll be capped at 4 items. ANd I think this is Riot's balance stratergy as well.

That explains why abysall, hourglass etc were given free cdr.

Glaedr1 votes

The main purpose of the mid-season mage patch was because mage itemization was fairly poor for the insane pricetags on items. Now we have more CDR options for both mages and supports.

redfeenix1 votes

Okay well if the community is happy with having CDR on every mage item, thats cool with my I suppose. Now I wish every AD item would have attack speed. Thats pretty much the equivalent of CDR for ADCs

magee1011 votes

{quoted}

Okay well if the community is happy with having CDR on every mage item, thats cool with my I suppose. Now I wish every AD item would have attack speed. Thats pretty much the equivalent of CDR for ADCs

Or you could quit being so finalist and realize that CDR =/= attack speed. Not every mage item has CDR, and often if you are buying a bunch of items that are giving CDR you probably don't have a large spread of utility as there are quite a few mage options that don't give CDR (like the hextech items)

magee1011 votes

Mage items were reworked to bring more of the feel back into what mages are. Before the recipe changes, mages had generally longer cool downs but their full combo was absolutely guaranteed to blow up anyone that wasn't half-tank. With the look at the Mage class that happened they wanted to get more back into what Mages were supposed to be, which is yes they have some burst but not quite THAT much burst, but they are also supposed to sling spells around alot. So rather than 'I'm going to have 30% CDR with athena's and cdr boots, and hit alright' or 'I'm going to have 10% CDR but hit like a fucking truck' Mages have a more reliable CDR expectation and damage output no matter their build. The main difference now in mage items is utility (Because who the hell buys deathcap anymore? It's so inefficient unless you are just absolutely stomping the enemy team into the ground)

redfeenix1 votes

Hmm understandable. However, I think that having some mage item options that dont inlcude CDR would be fine too.

I would like to see mages choose between having 40% cdr and building damage. Currently its not much of a choice, mages are all going for the CDR. This leads me to beleive that the mage's top tier items arnt as good as they could be, since CDR is so much more valued than AP.

magee1011 votes

{quoted}

Hmm understandable. However, I think that having some mage item options that dont inlcude CDR would be fine too.

I would like to see mages choose between having 40% cdr and building damage. Currently its not much of a choice, mages are all going for the CDR. This leads me to beleive that the mage's top tier items arnt as good as they could be, since CDR is so much more valued than AP.

What items are you looking at? I can easily get both full CDR and around 500~ AP or 400~ with 40 flat spellpen (including runes) I think you need to sit down and actually LOOK at all the mage items in the Item section of your profile and look at various builds. There's no more crazy 1000 AP unless you're veigar, they removed that shit from the game.

redfeenix1 votes

Nah I just meant to say that CDR builds are overcrowding non-cdr based builds.

For example mages are highly incentivized to build CDR and get to max CDR, as all their core items do contain it.

I'm asking for some variety in mage builds, and making item builds that DO NOT CONTAIN CDR to be as viable. CDR is overcrowding the other mage stats as its really strong atm.

So for example, If i'm choosing to build a defensive option like hourglass or abyssal, maybe I shouldnt be rewarded with free CDR? I would be sacrificing 10% cdr to have a strategic item. Isnt this a fair trade off?

Essentially I'm saying Zonyas is too strong as it contains free CDR. Lets give mages a choice if you wanna build hourglass you're gonna lose 10% cdr.

Just my two cents

PermabannedGaren1 votes

Because mage players literally would not shut up about their lack of options for CDR, so the mage update gave them more options.

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